2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[example1]

I think Texas is a very hard place to be a successful starting pitcher. The heat is so oppressive that most pitchers wilt by August. Wilson has had great stamina and consistency over the last 2 years in Texas. We need guys that can go deep into games. Why do you see bust potential in him?

 

You make some great points.

 

31 years old. Shorter track record. Few quality FA SPs available = elevated price. Bidding war with NYY.

 

That said, looking at his numbers more closely he really has had an impressive few seasons. He would be a fine addition, but ALL marquee FA pitchers are huge risks (very few of them recently) and the Sox are already burdened by teh contracts of 2 of them.

 

For the right (nonprohibitive) price and length he would be fine. He won't probably allow either of those. I suspect he ends up in NYY.

 

I think maybe Buehrle ends up in Boston.

[iortiz]

"Expectations"

 

They have spent a lot of money since Theo joined in2003, for sure.

 

Let's look at the results of that spending:

 

*Average # wins per-season (including incomplete 2011): 93

*Average # wins per-season rank: (2)

 

Number of playoff appearances: 7 (assuming 2011):

Number of playoff appearances rank: (2)

 

How does that stack up?

*Top 10 teams, sorted by playoff appearances (assuming 2011 appearances), then by average wins per-season (because many teams have appeared 2 times). Since 2003

 

[table] Team | PLAYOFFS

NYY | 8

BOS | 7

PHI | 5

LAA | 5

ATL | 5

MIN | 5

STL | 4

LAD | 4

CHC | 3

CHW | 2 [/table]

 

Even if the Sox don't make the playoffs this year, they will still have the 2nd most appearances during that time.

 

* World Series championships: 2

* World Series championships rank: (1)

 

You talk about expectations. In terms of expectations, what more could you possibly want? Unless you show me a detailed analysis of costs/win and playoff longevity (I don't feel like working with more spreadsheets) I'm just going to assume that you guys are just venting about expectations and excuses and people deserving to be fired because you are frustrated.

 

We will have all off-season to discuss what to do next, but I'm certainly not at all ashamed of how things have gone for the Sox since 2003. Given their standing as either FIRST in the category that matters most (WS wins) or SECOND in the one that matters second most (playoff appearances) or SECOND in the one that matters third most (average wins per season) I think your discussion about "expectations" is, by definition, unrealistic.

 

Nonetheless, I find you to be a GREAT poster and someone I like discussing this stuff with! :thumbsup:

 

E1, you are missing completely our point. Our point has been: if this team fails again this year -- don't make the POs or go early like in 2009-- this team would have achieved nothing but 3 years in a row of full failures, and the GM and Co. should go. Clear?

 

On the other, you already agreed that Theo should charge the main load of our issues already discussed (FA, farm/pitching depth, etc) which have been the main cause of this 3-year-debacle.

 

That being said, IMO (my point) we would have seen enough and the ship would be ready for another chief in command.

 

Nobody is taking away his credit (WS), or doubting about his talent or wishing any bad to him. But a cycle could be end if we fail again this year. Any organization has cycles. The Boston Red Sox is not immune to that. As I said, 3 years in a row of failures would've been enough to me. The signs/results are there. You say no, give him more time (reason why I asked: what else you need to see in order to make a move). Sure, it ain't over (main premise of my argument since I began the whole thing with the word if, remember? ) We have to wait and see how it ends and deliberate.

 

So... The only difference I can see between you and me is PATIENCE That's all.

[example1]

E1' date=' you are missing completely our point. Our point has been: [b']if[/b] this team fails again this year -- don't make the POs or go early like in 2009-- this team would have achieved nothing but 3 years in a row of full failures, and the GM and Co. should go. Clear?

 

On the other, you already agreed that Theo should charge the main load of our issues already discussed (FA, farm/pitching depth, etc) which have been the main cause of this 3-year-debacle.

 

That being said, IMO (my point) we would have seen enough and the ship would be ready for another chief in command.

 

Nobody is taking away his credit (WS), or doubting about his talent or wishing any bad to him. But a cycle could be end if we fail again this year. Any organization has cycles. The Boston Red Sox is not immune to that. As I said, 3 years in a row of failures would've been enough to me. The signs/results are there. You say no, give him more time (reason why I asked: what else you need to see in order to make a move). Sure, it ain't over (main premise of my argument since I began the whole thing with the word if, remember? ) We have to wait and see how it ends and deliberate.

 

So... The only difference I can see between you and me is PATIENCE That's all.

 

No man, I see your point clearly. We simply have a different scope of looking at sustained success and what it says about the team. I put way more weight on the longterm and way less on particular games or stretches of games. You guys both put a lot of weight on particular games as a reflection of whether the team was good enough for the entire season.

 

We can continue to agree to disagree.

 

How far do they need to get in the playoffs for you to feel like the season wasn't a disaster? World Series? Loss to the Rangers or Yankees in the 2nd round? I actually think they have a great chance in the playoffs, if they can ever start winning again. At least, I think they stack up well against the Tigers if they can get there.

[a700hitter]

Yet again we reach an impass.

 

You regularly claim that the team should do everything in its power for a WS. Future health of the team be damned. Yet, having those WS in your pocket doesn't buy ownership any more slack than if they hadn't won it. They have more of them this century than anyone else, and the 2nd most playoff appearances. What does that get them? 6 games to "prove" that they are either "winners" or "losers".

 

That's your real world. It isn't mine. I'm more loyal than that, particularly for those who have a track record of success at the very highest level.

 

You wonder why I seem so loyal to Theo... it's because this team has never been better than under his command. In my life of a bit over 3 decades, arguably the best 3-4 Red Sox teams have all been during his tenure.

 

Yeah, I'm a bit loyal to that success.

I'd cheer Theo if I saw him anywhere and thank him for the championship teams. This isn't about liking or not liking Theo. It's about assessing performance. The final chapter of this season has not been written. It might be a glorious end. I have to keep reminding people that in the poll that I posted, I voted that the Sox would win the WS, not collapse.

 

This team is spiraling out of control and circling the drain, but we still don't know if they will survive. If they fail, it doesn't mean that Theo did everything wrong, and conversely, if they succeed, it doesn't mean he did everything right. The difference between being a success or a failure can be slim difference. Right now, we are all concerned about a total collapse, so we are discussing the reasons for such a collapse. It is still a hypothetical discussion. I have said it many times in this forum that I root for the team and its players. I have never been a fan or advocate of anyone in any FO. That's just me.

 

Finally, yes this FO has brought us something that no other Sox FO has been able to accomplish in my lifetime. However, if this collapse continues and there is no post season, it will be the biggest collapse in Red Sox history without a close second.

[example1]

I'd cheer Theo if I saw him anywhere and thank him for the championship teams. This isn't about liking or not liking Theo. It's about assessing performance. The final chapter of this season has not been written. It might be a glorious end. I have to keep reminding people that in the poll that I posted, I voted that the Sox would win the WS, not collapse.

 

This team is spiraling out of control and circling the drain, but we still don't know if they will survive. If they fail, it doesn't mean that Theo did everything wrong, and conversely, if they succeed, it doesn't mean he did everything right. The difference between being a success or a failure can be slim difference. Right now, we are all concerned about a total collapse, so we are discussing the reasons for such a collapse. It is still a hypothetical discussion. I have said it many times in this forum that I root for the team and its players. I have never been a fan or advocate of anyone in any FO. That's just me.

 

Finally, yes this FO has brought us something that no other Sox FO has been able to accomplish in my lifetime. However, if this collapse continues and there is no post season, it will be the biggest collapse in Red Sox history without a close second.

 

Given that we agree that the potential collapse or non-collapse is still in the balance, wouldn't it be MUCH more appropriate to say that the reason for success moving forward is based almost entirely on the players themselves.

 

You said it yourself that Schilling always talks about the 5-6 pitches per-game that make the biggest difference. If Lester gives up a few taters does that fall on the FO?

 

At this point, I think the team has been put together than can get them to a World Series if the players play to their potential. The rest is on them. 6 games to go to the playoffs, then 11 more wins to the big crown.

 

Of course, TITO'S responsibility will carry on throughout the playoffs. Again, I'm open to discussion about his on-going role with the team even if they bow out early. If there's someone better available, make the move and don't look back (too much).

[a700hitter]

He would be a fine addition' date=' but ALL marquee FA pitchers are huge risks (very few of them recently) and the Sox are already burdened by teh contracts of 2 of them. [/quote']I agree with this, and this is the main reason why I would never trade an everyday star player like Ellsbury for a pitcher... never ever. Others in this forum have suggested if not recommended such a move. If the Sox are going to get a bust pitcher, I'd rather waste only money or prospects and not everyday young stars.

[example1]

I agree with this' date=' and this is the main reason why I would never trade an everyday star player like Ellsbury for a pitcher... never ever. Others in this forum have suggested if not recommended such a move. If the Sox are going to get a bust pitcher, I'd rather waste only money or prospects and not everyday young stars.[/quote']

 

I agree to a point. However, I think there are other "stars" to be had. In this instance, I would trade Ellsbury for Felix Hernandez, partly because I think Kalish has the potential to put up seasons similar to what Ellsbury is putting up this year, but that there isn't a pitcher in baseball with the potential to be what Felix should be for the next decade.

[a700hitter]

Given that we agree that the potential collapse or non-collapse is still in the balance, wouldn't it be MUCH more appropriate to say that the reason for success moving forward is based almost entirely on the players themselves.

 

You said it yourself that Schilling always talks about the 5-6 pitches per-game that make the biggest difference. If Lester gives up a few taters does that fall on the FO?

 

At this point, I think the team has been put together than can get them to a World Series if the players play to their potential. The rest is on them. 6 games to go to the playoffs, then 11 more wins to the big crown.

 

Of course, TITO'S responsibility will carry on throughout the playoffs. Again, I'm open to discussion about his on-going role with the team even if they bow out early. If there's someone better available, make the move and don't look back (too much).

I think if they make it, the players will have to dig very deep and they will deserve credit. Theo will get credit too, because he built a team with resiliency and character. If they don't have enough talent, character and resiliency make it to the playoffs, IMO it will be the responsibility of the FO.

[example1]

I think if they make it' date=' the players will have to dig very deep and they will deserve credit. Theo will get credit too, because he built a team with resiliency and character. If they don't have enough talent, character and resiliency make it to the playoffs, IMO it will be the responsibility of the FO.[/quote']

 

And that, my friend, is probably where we can leave it for the night.

 

We both hope they make the playoffs. We need some good performances from Lester and Beckett and the offense for the next 5 days. Magic number is 4.

[a700hitter]

I agree to a point. However' date=' I think there are other "stars" to be had. In this instance, I would trade Ellsbury for Felix Hernandez, partly because I think Kalish has the potential to put up seasons similar to what Ellsbury is putting up this year, but that there isn't a pitcher in baseball with the potential to be what Felix should be for the next decade.[/quote']I don't think he has looked that great this season. His velocity seems to be off. He has a significant number of miles on him and I see no reason to think that he will perform at an excellent level for a longer period than Ellsbury. I would never do it. I'd trade them Kalish, Iglesias and other prospects, but not an everyday star who has just had his breakout season.

[a700hitter]

And that, my friend, is probably where we can leave it for the night.

 

We both hope they make the playoffs. We need some good performances from Lester and Beckett and the offense for the next 5 days. Magic number is 4.

If Lester continues his first inning woes tomorrow, I think my head will explode.

[a700hitter]

kirk minihane

The Mailbag: Blaming Theo and praising Brady

Thu, 09/22/2011 - 10:24am

 

Mailbag Time and let's get this out of the way: I think Theo Epstein is a good general manager, for all the reasons we've heard a million times (developing players, pretty solid trade track record, etc.) I'm not a professional Theo-basher (you've read them and heard 'em on the radio -- the guy can't do anything right, he deserves no credit for the 2004 World Series, all the greatest hits), nor I do think the word "jeopardy" should be allowed in the same paragraph as "Theo Epstein's job" should the playoff walls come crumbling down happen in the next week.

 

And yes, I understand that the players should absolutely be held accountable for what we've watched in September (with a heavy -- think "Week 1 of the Biggest Loser" kind of heavy -- share of the blame on the pitching. Do you realize that the Sox are second in baseball in runs scored in September?). And if you want to throw a decent size of the blame pie at Terry Francona, I'm OK with it (though unless Francona has some ability to actually will good pitching performances out of these guys and has elected not to do so I'm not sure what he's supposed to do at this point).

 

But at the end of the day are we really going to blame Kyle Weiland, Tim Wakefield or Andrew Miller for being Kyle Weiland, Tim Wakefield and Andrew Miller?

 

Daniel Bard. Weiland. Carl Crawford (having one of the three or four worst seasons ever by a Red Sox outfielder). Erik Bedard. John Lackey (having the worst season ever by a Red Sox starting pitcher). Wakefield (probably could just write this and save us all some time -- the Sox starters have an ERA of 6.77 in September). Francona. Curt Young. Everyone is in play -- I'll even throw out the Curse of 93.7 (the Sox are 3-8 since the switch to FM).

 

But if I had to blame just one person for what would be a historic collapse, I'd have to point the ol' finger at Theo Epstein.

 

He took a risk with Bedard. Hasn't worked. He released Kevin Millwood, who hasn't been great in Colorado, but that 4.56 ERA and 1.31 WHIP looks pretty good next to Miller, Wakefield, Weiland and Lackey. Let's give Theo credit for Alfredo Aceves, but the reason Aceves can't be moved to the rotation is that there is no one in the bullpen who could come close to matching that level of performance. Well, Bobby Jenks ($6 million for a 6.32 ERA, 2.23 WHIP in 19 appearances) and Dan Wheeler (unable to stay healthy) were supposed to be those guys. Didn't happen.

 

Theo Epstein signed John Lackey and Carl Crawford to contracts that add up to nearly a quarter of a billion dollars. You could argue that -- at the time -- last Sunday's game vs. Tampa was the most important game of the season for the Red Sox. Carl Crawford was benched that day for Conor Jackson. You could now argue that very possibly Sunday's game in New York will be the most important game the Red Sox play this season. If the Red Sox had another breathing option there is no chance that John Lackey would be starting that game (and I'm still not convinced that he will).

 

I've been consistent since Day One that Crawford was a severe overpay (just doesn't get on base enough to be a $20 million player), but I think we can all agree that he's probably going to return to something close to the form that we saw in Tampa. But Lackey is an absolute disaster. We all knew he wasn't worth $82 million, but there was an understanding that Sox fans should expect 200+ innings a year, high teens in wins, an ERA in the mid-to-high 3.00's and security that a "big-game pitcher" would be on the mound when it mattered. That was the definition.

 

Instead what has happened is this: The highest-paid pitcher in Red Sox history is having the worst season by a pitcher in Red Sox history. John Lackey in 2010 looks like a bargain at this point. And let's not forget this: The Lackey signing was made, in no small part, because Daisuke Matsuzaka was injured (and awful when he did pitch) in 2009.

 

Epstein chased -- and overpaid -- Lackey to try and clean up what was already shaping up to be a serious mistake with Dice-K. I'm not sure how we look at the Daisuke contract -- is it $52 million or $103 million? -- but you could make the argument that the Sox have spent nearly $200 million on Daisuke and Lackey (and what's most astonishing about the performance of Crawford and Lackey this season is that it almost makes you forget about J.D. Drew and Daisuke -- just $25 million bucks down the drain).

 

And that is the biggest reason why the Sox find themselves in this spot. That is virtually no return (at least not since 2008) on $200 million. And that has paralyzed this team. How could the Sox go out and spend another $100 million on a pitcher when you've got $200 million tied up in 40 percent of the rotation? That meant no shot at Cliff Lee (who has as many shutouts this season as Lackey does quality starts) or any other guy who could at least be a "leave alone" pitcher in this rotation.

 

Is there enough sample size to maybe suggest that Theo is really good at some parts of this job (farm system, finding productive free agents on the cheap, trades) but really lousy when it comes to high-priced, long-term free agent deals? After Drew, Dice-K, Lackey, Lugo, Clement and Crawford I think it's OK to call this one. And if I'm John Henry there is no way I'd ever let Theo spend another $100 million on a free agent. It makes no business sense.

 

A good general manger? Sure. But if the Sox miss the playoffs, the blame has to start with Theo Epstein.

[iortiz]

I said it before you posted this^. If the stop the bleeding and get to the playoffs and make a good post season run' date=' I have said that the criticism goes away and he will get and deserve the credit. No one is fixing blame based on a small sample side. We are debating where the blame will lie [b']'if'[/b] they collapse and don't make the post season. If that happens, there will be a 3 year record of failure-- not a small sample side. If the pull out of this nosedive and represent themselves well in the playoffs, there is no failure. We all acknowledge that we are discussing this issue hypothetically. In 5 days or less the situation will no longer be hypothetical.

 

After the way that the Rays s*** on themselves tonight, the Red Sox road to the playoffs will be easier, but every time this Red Sox team gets a break, it has s*** on itself bringing it to the brink.

 

Exactly.

 

IMO if this team at least goes to the ALCS, Theo can continue but still, questions will have to be answered, and his permanence to 2013 will depend on his performance of 2012 season.

 

On the other hand, if this team make the WS (notice that I didn't say win it, some around here have made me softer ), I would give him 3 more years, and E1 could go in peace. :harhar:

 

No man' date=' I see your point clearly. We simply have a different scope of looking at sustained success and what it says about the team. I put way more weight on the longterm and way less on particular games or stretches of games. [b']You guys both put a lot of weight on particular games as a reflection of whether the team was good enough for the entire season. [/b]

 

We can continue to agree to disagree.

 

How far do they need to get in the playoffs for you to feel like the season wasn't a disaster? World Series? Loss to the Rangers or Yankees in the 2nd round? I actually think they have a great chance in the playoffs, if they can ever start winning again. At least, I think they stack up well against the Tigers if they can get there.

 

No, we don't. As I said, we are putting 3 years on the table. The last three 3 years. Enough scope to me in order to make a considerable move in our foundations (GM/Coaches/players/farm,etc.). It doesn't matter how you split the W/L columns through time -- months/weeks/days --. The only thing that matters in order to rate his job will be the overall result through 3 years. We aren't considering isolated events in order to rate his job. It is not September 2011, It is not April 2011, It is not go out early in 2009 and It is not even make the playoffs in 2011 or 2010. What we are considering in order to rate his management, is a range of THREE FULL YEARS. Reason why we have to wait how this 2011 season ends in order to deliberate.

 

That being said... One the other hand and regarding to your question, as I said, make the POs is a must to this team. It is not an achievement and it shouldn't be taken as a goal. This is not TB or KC baseball. You take the POs for granted since day 1 as an organization's milestone -- among a lot other during the season --.

 

When do you start talking about an achievement? When you make at least the ALCS and IMO you can rate that achievement like this:

 

LOSE ALCS Average

WIN ALCS Good

WIN WS Excellent

 

Just for the record. I wish/hope/desire that Theo continues 3 more years or at least 1 year which would mean that we made this year the WS/ALCS. But again, the things are not deserved but earned.

[iortiz]

kirk minihane

The Mailbag: Blaming Theo and praising Brady

Thu, 09/22/2011 - 10:24am

 

Mailbag Time and let's get this out of the way: I think Theo Epstein is a good general manager, for all the reasons we've heard a million times (developing players, pretty solid trade track record, etc.) I'm not a professional Theo-basher (you've read them and heard 'em on the radio -- the guy can't do anything right, he deserves no credit for the 2004 World Series, all the greatest hits), nor I do think the word "jeopardy" should be allowed in the same paragraph as "Theo Epstein's job" should the playoff walls come crumbling down happen in the next week.

 

And yes, I understand that the players should absolutely be held accountable for what we've watched in September (with a heavy -- think "Week 1 of the Biggest Loser" kind of heavy -- share of the blame on the pitching. Do you realize that the Sox are second in baseball in runs scored in September?). And if you want to throw a decent size of the blame pie at Terry Francona, I'm OK with it (though unless Francona has some ability to actually will good pitching performances out of these guys and has elected not to do so I'm not sure what he's supposed to do at this point).

 

But at the end of the day are we really going to blame Kyle Weiland, Tim Wakefield or Andrew Miller for being Kyle Weiland, Tim Wakefield and Andrew Miller?

 

Daniel Bard. Weiland. Carl Crawford (having one of the three or four worst seasons ever by a Red Sox outfielder). Erik Bedard. John Lackey (having the worst season ever by a Red Sox starting pitcher). Wakefield (probably could just write this and save us all some time -- the Sox starters have an ERA of 6.77 in September). Francona. Curt Young. Everyone is in play -- I'll even throw out the Curse of 93.7 (the Sox are 3-8 since the switch to FM).

 

But if I had to blame just one person for what would be a historic collapse, I'd have to point the ol' finger at Theo Epstein.

 

He took a risk with Bedard. Hasn't worked. He released Kevin Millwood, who hasn't been great in Colorado, but that 4.56 ERA and 1.31 WHIP looks pretty good next to Miller, Wakefield, Weiland and Lackey. Let's give Theo credit for Alfredo Aceves, but the reason Aceves can't be moved to the rotation is that there is no one in the bullpen who could come close to matching that level of performance. Well, Bobby Jenks ($6 million for a 6.32 ERA, 2.23 WHIP in 19 appearances) and Dan Wheeler (unable to stay healthy) were supposed to be those guys. Didn't happen.

 

Theo Epstein signed John Lackey and Carl Crawford to contracts that add up to nearly a quarter of a billion dollars. You could argue that -- at the time -- last Sunday's game vs. Tampa was the most important game of the season for the Red Sox. Carl Crawford was benched that day for Conor Jackson. You could now argue that very possibly Sunday's game in New York will be the most important game the Red Sox play this season. If the Red Sox had another breathing option there is no chance that John Lackey would be starting that game (and I'm still not convinced that he will).

 

I've been consistent since Day One that Crawford was a severe overpay (just doesn't get on base enough to be a $20 million player), but I think we can all agree that he's probably going to return to something close to the form that we saw in Tampa. But Lackey is an absolute disaster. We all knew he wasn't worth $82 million, but there was an understanding that Sox fans should expect 200+ innings a year, high teens in wins, an ERA in the mid-to-high 3.00's and security that a "big-game pitcher" would be on the mound when it mattered. That was the definition.

 

Instead what has happened is this: The highest-paid pitcher in Red Sox history is having the worst season by a pitcher in Red Sox history. John Lackey in 2010 looks like a bargain at this point. And let's not forget this: The Lackey signing was made, in no small part, because Daisuke Matsuzaka was injured (and awful when he did pitch) in 2009.

 

Epstein chased -- and overpaid -- Lackey to try and clean up what was already shaping up to be a serious mistake with Dice-K. I'm not sure how we look at the Daisuke contract -- is it $52 million or $103 million? -- but you could make the argument that the Sox have spent nearly $200 million on Daisuke and Lackey (and what's most astonishing about the performance of Crawford and Lackey this season is that it almost makes you forget about J.D. Drew and Daisuke -- just $25 million bucks down the drain).

 

And that is the biggest reason why the Sox find themselves in this spot. That is virtually no return (at least not since 2008) on $200 million. And that has paralyzed this team. How could the Sox go out and spend another $100 million on a pitcher when you've got $200 million tied up in 40 percent of the rotation? That meant no shot at Cliff Lee (who has as many shutouts this season as Lackey does quality starts) or any other guy who could at least be a "leave alone" pitcher in this rotation.

 

Is there enough sample size to maybe suggest that Theo is really good at some parts of this job (farm system, finding productive free agents on the cheap, trades) but really lousy when it comes to high-priced, long-term free agent deals? After Drew, Dice-K, Lackey, Lugo, Clement and Crawford I think it's OK to call this one. And if I'm John Henry there is no way I'd ever let Theo spend another $100 million on a free agent. It makes no business sense.

 

A good general manger? Sure. But if the Sox miss the playoffs, the blame has to start with Theo Epstein.

 

SNAP!. Shocking!. Illustrative! Convincing !. Forceful.!

 

Words more, words less; numbers more, numbers less; names more, names less; in the end, all our concerns and discussions about Mr. Theo Epstein for the last couple of weeks are here.

 

Who is the brave and give him another 100 MUSD next season? Who says, I?

 

Send this case to Harvard Business School and put it next to Enron's case.

[example1]

SNAP!. Shocking!. Illustrative! Convincing !. Forceful.!

 

Words more, words less; numbers more, numbers less; names more, names less; in the end, all our concerns and discussions about Mr. Theo Epstein for the last couple of weeks are here.

 

Who is the brave and give him another 100 MUSD next season? Who says, I?

 

Send this case to Harvard Business School and put it next to Enron's case.

 

I refer you to the Verducci Sports Illustrated article from this week about Theo Epstein and the way he runs the organization, uses numbers, scouts etc., it's really interesting.

 

Just so I can be reminded, what about the 2009 playoff loss was Theo's fault, rather than the team's fault? I dispute the notion that he put together a poor team that year.

[iortiz]

I refer you to the Verducci Sports Illustrated article from this week about Theo Epstein and the way he runs the organization, uses numbers, scouts etc., it's really interesting.

 

Just so I can be reminded, what about the 2009 playoff loss was Theo's fault, rather than the team's fault? I dispute the notion that he put together a poor team that year.

 

Sure, he is arguably a good/talented general manager, but still the pile of failures are out there. If the Sox miss the playoffs, the blame has to start with Theo Epstein (would have an accumulative of 3-years of failures in a row -- beyond isolated events like 2009 season --)

 

-- the scope of the note is 3-4 years as well ---

[a700hitter]

Just so I can be reminded, what about the 2009 playoff loss was Theo's fault, rather than the team's fault? I dispute the notion that he put together a poor team that year.

As usual, the 2009 team had depth problems. He went dumpster diving that off season. (BTW: I should have copyrighted 'dumpster diving", because it has caught on) He got Penny (almost useless), Smoltz (completely useless) and Baldelli (injured when he was needed). He wasted $12 million on this garbage. He also completely failed to address the SS situation. Having Nick Green as a starting SS on a contender is a glaring failure. 2009 was another season where the Sox could have gone much further if there had been some depth.

[iortiz]

As usual' date=' the 2009 team had depth problems. He went dumpster diving that off season. (BTW: I should have copyrighted 'dumpster diving", because it has caught on) He got Penny (almost useless), Smoltz (completely useless) and Baldelli (injured when he was needed). [b']He wasted $12 million on this garbage.[/b] He also completely failed to address the SS situation. Having Nick Green as a starting SS on a contender is a glaring failure. 2009 was another season where the Sox could have gone much further if there had been some depth.

 

 

Hell, it's shocking how this organization has wasted Those tons of money, wow!... simply unreal.

[SoxSport]

They need that no.3 starter. They never replaced Buchholz this year. Nor Dice-K, for that matter.

 

Instead, they kept throwing Lackey, Wakefield and Miller out there ad nauseam. Lackey and Wakefield are bad. They have to disappear off-season. Miller gets an incomplete--he should be in AAA--and would have been there with an option available.

 

Their big mistake was blindly throwing those three guys out there start after start, and then leaving Aceves-- a better pitcher--to mop up after these guys had crapped the bed. That must have frustrated the hitters--as Papi has implied. And they still are throwing those same guys out there (less Miller)--with the playoffs on the line!

 

Sure, they had no control over Buchholz and Dice-K going down. But the management didn't replace them properly in the rotation. They overestimated their pitching depth.

[MNSoxChief102]

They need that no.3 starter. They never replaced Buchholz this year. Nor Dice-K, for that matter.

 

Instead, they kept throwing Lackey, Wakefield and Miller out there ad nauseam. Lackey and Wakefield are bad. They have to disappear off-season. Miller gets an incomplete--he should be in AAA--and would have been there with an option available.

 

Their big mistake was blindly throwing those three guys out there start after start, and then leaving Aceves-- a better pitcher--to mop up after these guys had crapped the bed. That must have frustrated

the hitters--as Papi has implied.

 

Sure, they had no control over Buchholz and Dice-K going down. But the management didn't replace those guys properly in the rotation.

 

+1 although it wasn't for a lack of trying on Theo's part. He was in on Jiminez to the very end, but the Feather's package was better so the Rockies went with it. After that, it was pretty much garbage available, and Theo went for the best piece of it he could find in Harden, only to have medical issues stop it. That left Bedard. Unfortunately, that hasn't turned out too well.

[a700hitter]

+1 although it wasn't for a lack of trying on Theo's part. He was in on Jiminez to the very end' date=' but the Feather's package was better so the Rockies went with it. After that, it was pretty much garbage available, and Theo went for the best piece of it he could find in Harden, only to have medical issues stop it. That left Bedard. Unfortunately, that hasn't turned out too well.[/quote']Ironically, Harden hasn't missed a start, but Deadbeat Dad Bedard on the other hand. . .

[iortiz]

They need that no.3 starter. They never replaced Buchholz this year. Nor Dice-K, for that matter.

 

Instead, they kept throwing Lackey, Wakefield and Miller out there ad nauseam. Lackey and Wakefield are bad. They have to disappear off-season. Miller gets an incomplete--he should be in AAA--and would have been there with an option available.

 

Their big mistake was blindly throwing those three guys out there start after start, and then leaving Aceves-- a better pitcher--to mop up after these guys had crapped the bed. That must have frustrated the hitters--as Papi has implied. And they still are throwing those same guys out there (less Miller)--with the playoffs on the line!

 

Sure, they had no control over Buchholz and Dice-K going down. But the management didn't replace them properly in the rotation. They overestimated their pitching depth.

 

This.

[SoxSport]

+1 although it wasn't for a lack of trying on Theo's part. He was in on Jiminez to the very end' date=' but the Feather's package was better so the Rockies went with it. After that, it was pretty much garbage available, and Theo went for the best piece of it he could find in Harden, only to have medical issues stop it. That left Bedard. Unfortunately, that hasn't turned out too well.[/quote']

 

Good thing he didn't get Jiminez.

I always got the impression at the trade deadline that Theo was not willing to trade top prospects. He was looking for deals with secondary prospects--and that's what he gave up to get Bedard. I don't think he was willing to give up the prospects the Guardians or the Phillies or the Braves gave up. Too bad he missed on Pence, who is the type of player who

could have woken up this team with his hustle. Another Pedey. He wasn't a pitcher, but he was the one nugget out there worth giving up a Middlebrook (thought they might need him next year).

 

I think the club has leadership problems. They miss those Dirt Dogs.

[SoxSport]

Sure, he is arguably a good/talented general manager, but still the pile of failures are out there. If the Sox miss the playoffs, the blame has to start with Theo Epstein (would have an accumulative of 3-years of failures in a row -- beyond isolated events like 2009 season --)

 

-- the scope of the note is 3-4 years as well ---

 

 

 

Yeah. You can talk all you want about Theo--but he has his shortcomings, like everyone else.

He passed up Millwood, a better pitcher, to keep Lackey and Wake in the rotation.

Lackey is his $15 million failure. Wake is an overweight fixture. And then there's Miller, who should have pitched his way out of the bullpen from the start--instead of starting from the start.

And then there's the invisible Japanese guy in Pawtucket...

 

These are Epstein's failures-not Tito's.

[a700hitter]

If they stop the bleeding and go deep into October, there is no failure for which to assign blame. Theo is not going to lose his job after 2011 regardless of the outcome, but he now has a 5 year record on which to judge him regardless if we go to the playoffs in 2011. There are some significant shortcomings in his record.

 

BTW: I say that he has a 5 year record, because after 2006, only Manny was left from the Duquette days. It was completely Theo's team after 2006.

[Meh]

I could see a mega deal with the Rays and Reds this off season with Upton and Neimann going to the Reds for Grandal and some prospects. Rays need that catcher badly. Upton could join Bruce and Stubbs. Neimann can be replaced by Torres, Cobb or Moore.

[jacksonianmarch]

Good thing he didn't get Jiminez.

I always got the impression at the trade deadline that Theo was not willing to trade top prospects. He was looking for deals with secondary prospects--and that's what he gave up to get Bedard. I don't think he was willing to give up the prospects the Guardians or the Phillies or the Braves gave up. Too bad he missed on Pence, who is the type of player who

could have woken up this team with his hustle. Another Pedey. He wasn't a pitcher, but he was the one nugget out there worth giving up a Middlebrook (thought they might need him next year).

 

I think the club has leadership problems. They miss those Dirt Dogs.

 

The sox don't have the prospects to make a jiminez deal

[iortiz]

The sox don't have the prospects to make a jiminez deal

 

So... Let me understand this....

 

We don't have pitching-depth

We we don't have a 4,5 SP

Our books are clogged

Our roster is a mobile hospital

And now... we don't have a decent farm?

 

The 2012 scenario doesn't look encouraging.

[Spitball]

I could see a mega deal with the Rays and Reds this off season with Upton and Neimann going to the Reds for Grandal and some prospects. Rays need that catcher badly. Upton could join Bruce and Stubbs. Neimann can be replaced by Torres' date=' Cobb or Moore.[/quote']

 

If the Reds throw in Yonder Alonso who is blocked by Votto, there is potential for an even bigger blockbuster.

 

Speaking of the Reds, I think the Red Sox should move in on Edinson Volquez. Buy low on this this former all-star. He is now two years removed from Tommy John surgery, and the Reds seem to have soured on him. He has control problems at times but has unbeliebable stuff.

[alphilip77]

f***. Somebody in this organization needs to be punched in the face this offseason..