This needs to be said.

[jung]

This team still managed to win 90 games despite all these problems that are coming out as of late.

 

That quote was or was not in the post in question?

 

Followed by a bit of recalcitrance over considering "blowing it up" sounded like using the 90 wins as a possible harbinger to me. I can only read what's there dude.

[SCM33]

That quote was or was not in the post in question?

 

Followed by a bit of recalcitrance over considering "blowing it up" sounded like using the 90 wins as a possible harbinger to me. I can only read what's there dude.

 

Yeah, apparently you didnt read the rest of the post "dude", because the rest of it was there as well. "Sounded like" is making assumptions, which were wrong.....I made the post as well as the opening post in this thread and I am telling you your assumptions about my opinion....are wrong. Blowing it up is the right idea, but at first I was hoping for immediate positive results. With all those holes, I stated "I dont know what to think" about the future success in the immediate future.

 

Please go back and read past posts that I have made and stop making assumptions. "Sounded like" and "possible" are making assumptions. If I relayed the message wrong, so be it but you wont see me defend this embarrassing franchise. I am one of the few that is critical of it, to a fault sometimes.

[example1]

I heard a few reports that the Red Sox are likely going to pick up Scutaro's option' date=' and honestly, its a no-brainer. He was worth 10 million last year, and he'll cost 4.5 in 2012. As far as Middlebrooks, I think the organization will probably give him a little more time. Youkilis can handle 3B for the first half of the year--it is the second half when they'll need Middlebrooks.[/quote']

 

I thnk SCM was talking about after 2012, no?

[jung]

The challenge will be whether they can move forward (sideways?) replacing significant players and retain the same caliber of team. I'm optimistic that they can.

 

and I am simply suggesting that given the amount of turmoil and transition this team is in you can't tell me who will be playing where or at all for this team. Excepting Peddey, Crawford, AGons, Buckholtz and possibly Lackey every other guy on that team is up for grabs. So there you have it. You have 5 guys that you can say with a high degree of certainty will be there next year. One of them is a complete bum probably more responsible for the complete collapse of the clubhouse than any other single player. One of them underperformed in spectacular fashion. One of them slide right off into the abyss in the second half, was a complete no show against the teams they needed to beat and says God made them do it. No wait, the schedule make them do it. No wait, injuries made them do it. I am simply suggesting that we will need to get something of an idea for what this team is going to be before just giving them 90 and may I add who would suggest that 90 gets them anywhere anyway. I suspect it might guarantee them a spot in the expanded "runner up tournament" if MLB decides to go down that road but I would not suggest it will get them any more than that.

 

Right now you can't tell me whether Youk will be at 3rd or part time 1st/DH or there at all. You can't tell me if Ells will be in Center or Right or there at all. You can't tell me if Ortiz will be there at all and we have not even gotten to the starting pitching yet which is the biggest problem on this team! There is not a single other team in the Major's with more uncertainty with regard to its roster and rightfully so.

 

Unfortunately the way the CBA allows players under contract to control their own destiny teams are left with very little that they can do and frankly we may see many players gone because there is simply no way to keep many of them together with any hope of having a successful team.

 

While I am not suggesting that all of the remaining players except the five above would be flipped in one year I am suggesting that every other player can be considered a strong candidate for trade or release in some combination and that much roster uncertainty is very rare.

 

I am neither optimistic nor pessimistic until we get some idea for what JH and LL have in mind for the roster. Frankly those two will have much more to say about the make up of this team regardless of who they bring in for a GM because they are not going to give that guy any more leash than Theo had. If anything they will give him less leash. I suspect they are very unhappy about the fact that this is as you have correctly called it a "very unlikeable team" and I suspect that is going to drive their thinking as much as wins and losses.

 

It is entirely possible that they will try to use 2012 as a real fix it year and point to 2013. Its not likely but entirely possible. Ya' want to scratch them in for 90 right now without knowing if they are going to go down that road?

[iortiz]

I dont make excuses for them. Do me a favor and re-read my post. I was saying its a miracle they won 90 games with all those problems and they have a lot of work to do by pointing out all the holes they potentially have. I criticized the entire franchise up and down and have done so for 2 years.

 

Does "blow it up" and my criticism of the players as well as management sound like I am defending anyone or using it to gauge next year? Not good enough, top to bottom....thats what they are. 180 million dollars and they are not good enough.

 

I know you started posting here like last week, but before you make assumptions about my intentions get to know me as a poster first, because clearly you dont grasp my intentions. Read the first post in this thread. Ive probably been top 3 in terms of most critical of this team in this forum.

 

Well, A700, Ted101, pump, soxsports and I are in that list as well SCM

 

Hell, only few players can be excluded of this mess, that's for sure.

[FredLynn]

Well, A700, Ted101, pump, soxsports and I are in that list as well SCM

 

Hell, only few players can be excluded of this mess, that's for sure.

 

Glad to know who I am keeping company with. You can add IPOT, Muggah, and Brennan to that list...and maybe Elktonnic.

[Muggah]

Glad to know who I am keeping company with. You can add IPOT' date=' Muggah, and Brennan to that list...and maybe Elktonnic.[/quote']

 

 

Great choice, btw, Pumpsie. Excellent boards.

[FredLynn]

I guess this goes in this thread, the "This needs to be said" thread.

Some of us have been of the opinion that Francona is a mediocre manager for many years, a terrible in game tactician and someone who coddled his players to the detriment of the team. Although he seemed good at managing some of the egos on the team, the new statements from John Lester today seem to validate our position: Francona allowed the guys to walk all over him. He was as soft as a marshmallow and it showed. I am glad that Lester told us the truth about how it was in the dugout. Well, the party is about over. The new manager is going to be much tougher. It will be interesting to see how some of the overpaid underperformers in this team react.

[SoxSport]

I guess this goes in this thread, the "This needs to be said" thread.

Some of us have been of the opinion that Francona is a mediocre manager for many years, a terrible in game tactician and someone who coddled his players to the detriment of the team. Although he seemed good at managing some of the egos on the team, the new statements from John Lester today seem to validate our position: Francona allowed the guys to walk all over him. He was as soft as a marshmallow and it showed. I am glad that Lester told us the truth about how it was in the dugout. Well, the party is about over. The new manager is going to be much tougher. It will be interesting to see how some of the overpaid underperformers in this team react.

 

yeah--I just said the same in the "Lester" thread.

 

They didn't respect Tito, who looks like a fool now.

Maybe they didn't like some of his game moves, either.

 

Tito will have a tougher time than people think getting another manager job .

[example1]

I guess this goes in this thread, the "This needs to be said" thread.

Some of us have been of the opinion that Francona is a mediocre manager for many years, a terrible in game tactician and someone who coddled his players to the detriment of the team. Although he seemed good at managing some of the egos on the team, the new statements from John Lester today seem to validate our position: Francona allowed the guys to walk all over him. He was as soft as a marshmallow and it showed. I am glad that Lester told us the truth about how it was in the dugout. Well, the party is about over. The new manager is going to be much tougher. It will be interesting to see how some of the overpaid underperformers in this team react.

 

This is probably all true, and indicates the need for a change.

 

However, you shouldn't take being a hands-off manager as being the same as a "bad" manager (not that you are, I just want to clarify). On a high-functioning team, management should be able to be hands off. They should trust at their core that things are being taken care of below them. Employees are being appropriately responsible and are policing one another as needed, hopefully mostly by leading by example and setting high standards internally. That's what any manager should want. The fact that Tito wasn't able to become a drill-sergent when the team fell out of control is less a reflection on his abilties as a manager and more a reflection of the needs of this particular group. They clearly need more hand holding, more rules, etc., It's the signs of a poorly functioning team, and it's sad IMO. Too much trust did Tito in. That sucks.

[a700hitter]

This is probably all true, and indicates the need for a change.

 

However, you shouldn't take being a hands-off manager as being the same as a "bad" manager (not that you are, I just want to clarify). On a high-functioning team, management should be able to be hands off. They should trust at their core that things are being taken care of below them. Employees are being appropriately responsible and are policing one another as needed, hopefully mostly by leading by example and setting high standards internally. That's what any manager should want. The fact that Tito wasn't able to become a drill-sergent when the team fell out of control is less a reflection on his abilties as a manager and more a reflection of the needs of this particular group. They clearly need more hand holding, more rules, etc., It's the signs of a poorly functioning team, and it's sad IMO. Too much trust did Tito in. That sucks.

Any good manager should know how to remain hands off when things are going well, but be able to go to the whip to keep things from slipping away.

[jung]

There is nothing that happened with Tito that is unusual for managers other than that players, front office personnel and everybody with a mouth or a pen have buried the guy. What percentage of managers remain in their job with a team to retirement, something under 1%? Why do you think they get tossed? Their players no longer respond to them, that is why. Tito had a style, expecting him to change it would have been like expecting a zebra to change his stripes. This team changed around Tito and then the front office left him a toothless lame duck manager for the whole year by not picking up his option. Does nobody here understand how difficult it is for a manager to stand up in front of bunch of overpaid, pampered ******* professional athletes when ownership makes it so obvious that he does not have their support?

 

He has made no bones about having lost the ability to "get to his players". I would make no bones about his in game moves as I have never thought him a situational manager. He handled the nut case Boston media very well and he kept much of the screwed up BS players often have to deal with in this town away from them. Those are the qualities he came with and the qualities he left with. Oh by the way the team managed two WS wins while he was here.

 

We knew the inmates were running the asylum before Lester said a word and frankly given the way dirt that never ever should have made its way out of Sox Admin or HR has been slung in Tito's direction continuing to repeat what we already knew makes little sense. Make no mistake that is where that dirt came from and if it can be linked there positively Tito probably has a breach of confidentiality case he can hang around their necks if he were to choose to pursue it. That would surely be fitting. For Gods sake, the ever spinning Sox front office won't let it go. Is everybody going to turn out to be a of boot licking lackey for them?

 

The only thing I appreciated from the Lester interview is that he himself said he was not the stopper that he expected himself to be as the number 1 pitcher for the team which is exactly what I have been saying about his 2011 performance. I don't care how many pitching matrices say he was an ace. Fine you want to call him an ace call him an ace. However you can't be a team number 1 unless you are a stopper...period!

[FredLynn]

Any good manager should know how to remain hands off when things are going well' date=' but be able to go to the whip to keep things from slipping away.[/quote']

 

Any GOOD manager does..........

[SoxSport]

It's about time this organization stopped giving its prospects "a little more time" before they promote them,

and "a little more time" for its rehabbing pitchers--complete with trips to Florida and AAA assignments.

 

Kalish, for example, missed a whole year injured in AAA, because he needed "a little more time".

 

This is a lavish, free-spending organization that wastes money.

 

In the old days, pitchers "rehabbed" in the bullpen, pitching an inning or two, before they made a start. And fielders played on the bench a few innings before they started again.

 

It is part of the 'soft' culture of the Red Sox organization. They need to run leaner.

[Cairns_Sox]

This is probably all true, and indicates the need for a change.

 

However, you shouldn't take being a hands-off manager as being the same as a "bad" manager (not that you are, I just want to clarify). On a high-functioning team, management should be able to be hands off. They should trust at their core that things are being taken care of below them. Employees are being appropriately responsible and are policing one another as needed, hopefully mostly by leading by example and setting high standards internally. That's what any manager should want. The fact that Tito wasn't able to become a drill-sergent when the team fell out of control is less a reflection on his abilties as a manager and more a reflection of the needs of this particular group. They clearly need more hand holding, more rules, etc., It's the signs of a poorly functioning team, and it's sad IMO. Too much trust did Tito in. That sucks.

 

This. 110% this.

[Elktonnick]

This. 110% this.

 

If you watched Felger et al tonight on Comcast, the problem is far bigger then the manager. It is a lack of character on the part of cewrtain ballplayers. In this sense one could blame the Front office for not taking stregnth of character into account when selecting players.

[Cairns_Sox]

If you watched Felger et al tonight on Comcast' date=' the problem is far bigger then the manager. It is a lack of character on the part of cewrtain ballplayers. In this sense one could blame the Front office for not taking stregnth of character into account when selecting players.[/quote']

 

Ive never blamed Tito for the entire thing. I lay alot of the blame on the players.

[example1]

If you watched Felger et al tonight on Comcast' date=' the problem is far bigger then the manager. It is a lack of character on the part of cewrtain ballplayers. In this sense one could blame the Front office for not taking stregnth of character into account when selecting players.[/quote']

 

Jon Lester: supposedly high character guy (that's why everyone was shocked he's involved in this s***). Fought to overcome cancer. One of the best pitchers in the league. Francona and he were apparently tight prior to this season. No known character issues.

 

Josh Beckett: stared down the Cubs and Yankees in 2003 and Guardians and Rockies in 2007 to win World Series. Supposedly one of the strongest competetors in the game. What team wouldn't have wanted his abilities on the mound? Until two weeks ago Curt Schilling (Mr. Character) was saying Josh was one of his most admired pitchers in the game.

 

John Lackey: Big douchebag, but reports from ANA and from people who knew him previously were that he actually cared about how his teams did and his own performance in that regard. Then his wife gets cancer, he has problems with his child, is in a messy divorce and started not caring as much. It happens to people in all walks of life and it certainly won't be the last time it happens in baseball.

 

How these three started having such an insidious impact on each other I don't know, but somehow it happened. I don't think that means the Sox should have dealt Lester or not acquired Beckett. The Lackey signing will be second guessed over and over again (rightly so) but he was the best realistic and available SP on the market that year.

 

Also, the Sox were not getting Cliff Lee or some other elite SP in Lackey's place at last year's offseason.

 

Sometimes character issues are unpredictable and come from a bad combination of the underlying facets of each person's personality. Should the FO pay more attention to it in the future? Yes. Were these three pitchers as blatently bad characters as guys like Carl Everett or Milton Bradley? Not by a longshot.

[jung]

Jon Lester is clearly one of the top 10 or so pitchers in the league but expectations would have had him solidly in the top 5 and that did not happen. While there has been a good deal of news about Sox minor leaguers taking a step backwards this season, clearly so did Lester. He did not take the reins from Beckett this year and that was clearly the expectation.

 

Josh Beckett has been a very strong, solid and reliable pitcher for a very long time. As i have said before I believe Josh to be going through the kind of transitional period that all but the most powerful of power pitchers tend to go through eventually. Steroids probably forestalled this period for Clemens. Nolan Ryan was strong enough not to have gone down this transitional path, Randy Johnson comes to mind as does Tom Seaver. But Josh is more in the Greg Maddux mold to me and is mid stream making a transition to that sort of a pitcher. I think Josh is fighting more than accepting it and that has been and is something of an issue for him. A tough time not to have a really strong influence as a pitching coach.

 

John Lackey never should have been brought here. I know this looks like Monday morning quarterbacking but just based on his pitching skills at the time and what the Sox had going for them at the time they would have been better served going down a different road. At that point Lester was clearly ready to emerge as a force on the mound for the Sox. They had Beckett still in his prime and Buckholtz as George Harrison to Beckett and Lester's Lennon and McCartney. They did not at that point need to spend monster money on the guy that appeared to be the best SP of that FA season which has been our complaint about many of the FA signings of recent memory. It is just too easy to open the wallet and go after the guy at the top of the list. They should have tried to bring in somebody younger, cheaper and more of a risk, somebody with big upside, great stuff and his career ahead of him because they had the stability at SP to do that. Lackey was not a power pitcher. He was a pitcher entirely dependent on control especially of his slider which is now the pitch that so often finds opposing bats.

 

As for Lackey's clubhouse issues, I have said before that the things Lackey has gone through are things everyday people go through all the time. Lackey for whatever reason felt justified in bringing all of his dirty laundry through the clubhouse. Clearly that must have been the reason why management finally sent him away for awhile saying something like "look John just go take care of this mess. We will give you time to do it" (very generous and very rare I might add) but clearly the implication was that this had gone on bearing down on the team for a long time now and Sox management had had it and was doing this with the intent that he not come back continuing to drag his s*** through the clubhouse. If you allow this sort of stuff to just go on and on you eventually find that everybody feels entitled to drag their s*** through your workplace whatever it is and you also find out that most of us are carrying bucket loads of s*** and suddenly there it is all out there on your floor. You are not running a baseball team or any other kind of a workplace at that point. Instead you have a sponsored group therapy session that occasionally puts its problems aside to do a little work, occasionally!! Hate to lay it all at Lackey's doorstep but there it is. Unless I see evidence otherwise, for me Lackey is the player most responsible for dragging this clubhouse down. His performance on the mound went to hell and he turned out to be clubhouse poison to boot. Lackey shows all the signs of being a big overgrown child which truth be told is the case for many pro athletes as they never have had to grow up.

[SCM33]

Pitching Coach Curt Young is gone.

 

Another step towards changing the clubhouse culture. He was great with younger kids in Oakland, they walked all over him in his only year here.

[SCM33]

Most loved teammate?

 

John Lackey

 

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/baseball/red_sox/view/2011_1021most_loved_teammate_yup_lackey/

 

They ABSOLUTELY need to move him. He is the most liked teammate which means if he stays, the players will be happy. The great thing is that he absolutely sucks so its a win win.

 

Send a message to the clubhouse, piss off the players AND you ride yourself of a heaping pile of Chunk from the goonies garbage.

[SoxSport]

And make sure the door hits him square in the ass on the way out.

[a700hitter]

When we first got Lackey, I joked about his stupid horse face, but after two seasons of him it's obvious that he is just a horses ass.

[seabeachfred]

And make sure the door hits him square in the ass on the way out.

 

I've come to the conclusion that Lackey has to go because he has apparently had a deleterious effect on Lester and most likely on Beckett. The Beckett thing I can't figure out; why someone could influence him when he was around four years before Lackey arrived. Of course it is easy to jump on Lackey because he has sucked for two seasons and he is an easy target. It begs the question, though, as to what Henry will do with him. I don't see him eating that $45 million contract, yet the consensus is that he has to go.

 

There are a lot of areas that need fumigating this winter. A new manager, a new pitching coach, and, yes, a new medical staff and new physical strength and conditioning staff, and that comes before we start ejecting the relics like Varitek and Wakefield, rejects like McDonald, malingerers like Drew, and excess refuse like Miller. I notice there are a lot of angry people on this board right now, but I would bet dollars to donuts that it would be a whole different ball game if we were in the WS right now instead of scattering to the four winds. If John Henry is listening in, get the hell to work and start doing the right things.

[Brennan]

Yeah, we were critical of the team over on Sawxheads and it has pretty much resulted in me just getting banned after 5 years for questioning our yankee fan moderator over why he wiped out our entire history over there but left his yankee thread intact. He started a new site already but is part of a pollyanna fantasy baseball click that doesn't allow free speech even though no profanity was used.

 

It doesn't pay to speak your mind anymore.

[VA Sox Fan]

Yeah, we were critical of the team over on Sawxheads and it has pretty much resulted in me just getting banned after 5 years for questioning our yankee fan moderator over why he wiped out our entire history over there but left his yankee thread intact. He started a new site already but is part of a pollyanna fantasy baseball click that doesn't allow free speech even though no profanity was used.

 

It doesn't pay to speak your mind anymore.

 

You can out here. As long as it doesn't involve politics or simply being a troll.

[Brennan]

You can out here. As long as it doesn't involve politics or simply being a troll.

 

 

 

 

I've been done with politics for years.

 

Same with trolling, it is fun for about a week when you're 12 years old.

[VA Sox Fan]

I've been done with politics for years.

 

Same with trolling, it is fun for about a week when you're 12 years old.

 

:thumbsup:

[seabeachfred]

Yeah, we were critical of the team over on Sawxheads and it has pretty much resulted in me just getting banned after 5 years for questioning our yankee fan moderator over why he wiped out our entire history over there but left his yankee thread intact. He started a new site already but is part of a pollyanna fantasy baseball click that doesn't allow free speech even though no profanity was used.

 

It doesn't pay to speak your mind anymore.

 

Vic PM'd me and said he gave you a "four day time out". Please Brennan, don't let that make you want to leave Sawsheads. We need our whole crew there, and now that all of them are on here we might recruit some new members to post there as well as here like we're doing. As for wiping out five years I can only surmise that he might have wanted both boards operating on an even keel since a lot of the old posts were written by members of the new board. Just a guess, though.

 

I'll tell you this....no one I know on this board would pick that new pollyanna site over ours. Like TalkSox we're a real baseball board where everygoes goes and usually does.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Brennan]

Vic PM'd me and said he gave you a "four day time out". Please Brennan, don't let that make you want to leave Sawsheads. We need our whole crew there, and now that all of them are on here we might recruit some new members to post there as well as here like we're doing. As for wiping out five years I can only surmise that he might have wanted both boards operating on an even keel since a lot of the old posts were written by members of the new board. Just a guess, though.

 

I'll tell you this....no one I know on this board would pick that new pollyanna site over ours. Like TalkSox we're a real baseball board where everygoes goes and usually does.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

 

 

You have no idea the smear campaign jon and his boyfriend vic are starting on me now, go check it out. You guys have to carry the torch.