This needs to be said.

[SCM33]

For the last 2 years, every time I have been critical of ANY player on the RedSox I am/was attacked. Well you know something? For the last 2 years, this team has been absolutely miserable to watch. Even worse? Going to a game and seeing a guy catch a game winning home run in the monster seats of the opposing team and cheering. Who the f*** sings Sweet Caroline at a RedSox game after Bard/Papelbon just had a potentially catastrophic meltdown?

 

Everyone on this board wants to get into pissing contests about how some obscure Saber statistic is the be all end all of stats, so therefore.....player X does not suck. You know what I call that? Excuses. God knows there is nothing better that the RedSox are at than excuses. This is the same club that blamed inter-league play and the official league DH rules as to why they lost to the Pittsburgh f***ing Pirates. f*** the stats, this team started 2-10 and are now 5-15 in September.

 

In the old days, when real Sox fans cared about this team and was not considered Red Sox "nation" we would be tearing into this team. Not anymore. Too many stat geeks who jumped on the bandwagon in 2004 when Bellhorn was having a sabermetric's wet dream of a season, told everyone that the old school Sox fans were wrong. The f***ing media doesnt even tear in to this team anymore, they dont want to ruin their relationship/partnership. I am so sick of seeing some dude in the press box promoting his company or talking about how generous John Henry, Larry Luchino and Tom Werner are while the Redsox are getting their asses kicked

 

This team sucks. They have no heart. Tito was a great manager when he had all those gritty players around him, but that was only because those guys cared about the game and they were damn good at the game. They didnt give a s*** what Tito said or the fact he was a "players manager" (aka a soft manager who gets walked on by his players)..they cared about the tradition of the franchise and what winning meant to this city. You want to know what Tito was before he had all those "dirt dogs"? He was a soft manager who got walked on in Philadelphia. Those players owned him in PHI which is why he was on the street looking for a job before he came to Boston.

 

This team, this organization....they arent the Boston Red Sox. Its just a bunch of guys wearing the uniform who are filling in and making Werner/Henry/Lucchino money. The Redsox are only a cash cow to those guys. Minus Youk and Pedroia, if any of them were true members of this proud organization, they would never allow this s*** to happen for 2 straight years. They should be ashamed, but they arent...they dont give a f***, and its pretty clear.

 

Instead of being angry with the fellow members of this board for having opinions like mine, how about you get angry at the organization that has played this way for the last 2 years?

[MNSoxChief102]

I understand your POV and respect it, but I guess I'm just not that kind of fan. I care deeply about this franchise and want nothing more than to see them win every single year, but I also understand that me getting angry and upset is essentially stupid, as nothing I say or do has any bearing whatsoever on the way the Red Sox are run and only affects me and my state of mind. Negativity isn't my cup of tea I suppose. I curse and shout at them as much as anyone else, but once the game is over I rarely if ever continue to be upset... no reason to keep it rolling after the fact.

 

Doesn't make me any less of a fan... just means I'd rather spend my time elsewhere instead of wallowing in anger over a pro sports team that I have no control over. If I were on the team or worked for them in some capacity, I would likely feel different.

[iortiz]

Somehow I feel identified with this post.

 

Nice post SCM.

[Palodios]

I apologize if I've been part of the group that has attacked you. There is a tendency around here to just completely bash players without any rationality. If a player sucks, that's one thing. Anything said about the pitching staff at this point is valid. But insulting post-breakout Salty, or blaming Theo for not having 10 pitchers that can pitch to a 4.00 ERA is just silly, and it seems that most people here are either optimists or pessimists.

[SCM33]

I apologize if I've been part of the group that has attacked you. There is a tendency around here to just completely bash players without any rationality. If a player sucks' date=' that's one thing. Anything said about the pitching staff at this point is valid. But insulting post-breakout Salty, or blaming Theo for not having 10 pitchers that can pitch to a 4.00 ERA is just silly, and it seems that most people here are either optimists or pessimists.[/quote']

 

Its not about Salty, or Theo....or the pitching staff. Its everything, all of them. The fans, the media, the front office.....the players. One of the greatest things I have witnessed in my life (2004 world series) was also on of the worst. Since then the drive is gone. There is no more "electricity" in the ball park. Thats all been replaced with fans wealthy enough to afford tickets. Real fans have been pushed out by pink hats. The new ownership, while winning 2 world series under their regime have absolutely killed the tradition and organization. Yeah, it was miserable, angry and hostile...but that was only to those who deserved it, or was direceted to the opposition and it was part of the fun. That was part of Fenway. That was part of Boston, that was part of the Red Sox. When things were going good, we were not miserable, angry and hostile....home town players earned their boos. The opposing teams earned their boos just by showing up.

 

We didn't sing Sweet Caroline when the Sox were getting their asses kicked back them, we would boo that s*** til they stopped playing that wretched music. That s*** aint Red Sox.

[Emmz]

I just think it's annoying when people act like all hope is gone, when they don't even have faith. I don't care if you criticize players, or the management, or whatever. I care when you act like the season's done, and just complain about everything, and even go as far as saying "f*** this team, I'm done, we're done, we don't deserve this."

 

It's frustrating to watch this, but that's not passion when you say that sort of crap, that's just pink hat pussy BS. If we lose out and don't make it, then we don't deserve to be there. I'm not asking everyone to be optimistic, I'm just disappointed in how easily we've given up. Not exactly what I'd call passionate.

[mvp 78]

Pink hats came before 2004. I think they started up after 1999 or so. Pink hats and arguments about "real fans" are just stupid things to complain about. The team is more popular now. If you don't like it, there's the door. That's not going to change for a while. The ownership doesn't give two shits about "real fans" when they are making money hand over fist and why should they? Watch NESN broadcasts of half empty games in the 80s and 90s. The real fans weren't banging the place out. Without the pink hats you complain about, this team would have half the payroll and would be competing with the Jays every year for third place. The whole "I know how to be a real fan" thing is a stupid exercise.

[mvp 78]

I just think it's annoying when people act like all hope is gone, when they don't even have faith. I don't care if you criticize players, or the management, or whatever. I care when you act like the season's done, and just complain about everything, and even go as far as saying "f*** this team, I'm done, we're done, we don't deserve this."

 

It's frustrating to watch this, but that's not passion when you say that sort of crap, that's just pink hat pussy BS. If we lose out and don't make it, then we don't deserve to be there. I'm not asking everyone to be optimistic, I'm just disappointed in how easily we've given up. Not exactly what I'd call passionate.

 

And this is the other side of the coin. New Englanders tend to be pessimistic. Complaining about it is fruitless.

 

This whole "I know how fans should really act" BS needs to be put to sleep.

 

I could say "well, you don't know what it's really like because you're from MN." But that would be just as retarded.

 

Thinking that you (not you specifically Emmz) hold the one true way to be a fan is the dumbest thing ever. Everyone needs to get over it.

[a700hitter]

I was at the games on Saturday and Sunday, and I have to agree that there is a lot less passion. In the biggest series of the year with a packed house, the fans just didn't seem to care about what was going on on the field. Late in the game on Saturday in a close tense game, the crowd did the wave for at least half an inning and then of course they all sang Sweet Caroline to each other. On Sunday, there was also little passion. It's like the game is only part of the experience. I would have rationalized the lack of passion on Sunday on the fact that they fell far behind early and they stayed behind, but It was the same lack of enthusiasm in a close game on Saturday. Where are the real fans?

 

Too many people on this site act like you have killed their mother if you criticize a player. They will go nuts trying to prove you wrong, and they get personal about it. We should be able to have opinions and not get attacked personally. Criticism and emotion in a game thread has to be expected. That's what passionate fans do. Are they always right? No, but what is the point of arguing to win a stupid point with a person who is already emotionally upset that his team is losing. It's a recipe for a nasty argument. There is no sense in defending the FO. Management is always to blame in every organization. Period. They reap the rewards of success, so they have to take accountability for failure. We as fans are allowed to disagree with managements decisions. We are allowed to have opinions. This is not science. I am sorry sabrenaticians, but almost nothing is provable by your stats, because we cannot compare it to the road not taken. We just don't know how things would have turned out if they had made different decisions. All that we can do is judge based on results. I don't buy the "it could have been worse" argument. To me that is not the argument of an optimist. Could things have been worse? I think that is always the case, but I think it is possible that things could have been better.

[yeszir]

To me, throwing your hands up in the air and screaming "I give up on being a fan" is, by definition, not being a fan.

[a700hitter]

To me' date=' throwing your hands up in the air and screaming "I give up on being a fan" is, by definition, not being a fan.[/quote']I have never done that, but I can understand someone that does. It's like a quarreling couple. One minute they are through with each other and an hour later they are rolling around having make up sex. It's just an emotional outburst by the fan. They may leave their spouses and girlfriends, but once a Sox fan, always a Sox fan.

[a700hitter]

To me' date=' throwing your hands up in the air and screaming "I give up on being a fan" is, by definition, not being a fan.[/quote']It's like the golfer cursing the game for 18 holes, but showing up to play every single day. You can't judge someones loyalty and fandom.

[Emmz]

And this is the other side of the coin. New Englanders tend to be pessimistic. Complaining about it is fruitless.

 

This whole "I know how fans should really act" BS needs to be put to sleep.

 

I could say "well, you don't know what it's really like because you're from MN." But that would be just as retarded.

 

Thinking that you (not you specifically Emmz) hold the one true way to be a fan is the dumbest thing ever. Everyone needs to get over it.

 

I never claimed to know the true definition of the fan, or to be a superior fan to anyone. Where you got that from, I'm not so sure. I thought I was pretty clear when I said:

 

I'm not asking everyone to be optimistic, I'm just disappointed in how easily we've given up. Not exactly what I'd call passionate.

 

All I really said was that saying f*** you to your team is a pretty lousy thing for a fan to say, and I'm seeing a lot of that crap.

[Emmz]

It's like the golfer cursing the game for 18 holes' date=' but showing up to play every single day. You can't judge someones loyalty and fandom.[/quote']

 

It's a pretty lousy thing to say about your team, and at the very least, it's extremely annoying to those who have their heads on straight.

[Emmz]

I have never done that' date=' but I can understand someone that does. It's like a quarreling couple. One minute they are through with each other and an hour later they are rolling around having make up sex. It's just an emotional outburst by the fan. They may leave their spouses and girlfriends, but once a Sox fan, always a Sox fan.[/quote']

Terrible comparison, you don't get to have make up sex with the Red Sox.

[Palodios]

I just think it's annoying when people act like all hope is gone, when they don't even have faith. I don't care if you criticize players, or the management, or whatever. I care when you act like the season's done, and just complain about everything, and even go as far as saying "f*** this team, I'm done, we're done, we don't deserve this."

 

It's frustrating to watch this, but that's not passion when you say that sort of crap, that's just pink hat pussy BS. If we lose out and don't make it, then we don't deserve to be there. I'm not asking everyone to be optimistic, I'm just disappointed in how easily we've given up. Not exactly what I'd call passionate.

 

Agreed with this 100%. There are far too many posters on here who think it would be the end of the world if the Red Sox don't win the World Series. Its as if those eighties years of failure never existed, and winning it all is a routine kind of thing that we see every few years and we enjoy a little bit.

[Dojji]

This is all just another form of pink hattery.

 

The real die-hards? Those are the ones who know that there really always is next year. They are the ones that are still pretty comfortable in their own skin while this is going on. Because they actually have this thing called "perspective." They've seen the seasons roll by and remember that low points have happened in every single one of them. And they're informed by that as they watch this September unfold. Heck, I can't think of a single September that has been the friend of the Red Sox in a long time, that was true in 07, and IIRC it was true in 04 as well. This means nothing as long as we get in.

 

And if the absolute worst happens? God that feels lame to even say, a sports team does not get doomsday scenarios. A failure to make the playoffs in 2011 will not bring on the zombie apocalypse, except perhaps on the sports call shows that absolutely love to sensationalize setbacks. The die hards know we're not going to spend every year having a team even as good as this one. Heck, even the disaster in 2006 won more games than it lost, do you have any idea how few teams have this many years of consecutive winning seasons? Not many.

 

There are fans of at least 24 teams that would kill to be able to field this squad in its entirety, warts and all. And the money still favors us making the playoffs where, as the dogma goes, anything can happen.

 

As far as the playoffs themselves go -- we still have Lester, we still have Beckett, and I roll the dice with Bedard as my #3 and count on him to give me 5+ good innings. That's three starters that are debatably ace caliber (when healthy, in Bedard's case, obviously) We're not that badly off once the time comes to shorten the rotation.

 

 

Chemistry is the single hardest thing for a general manager to control, and there does seem to be a gap in the team's chemistry. There's some element missing that was there in 04 and 07. But let me hasten to add, that there were definitely points in both 04 and 07 that were as low as this, too. Those years were not hallmarks of perfection from game 1 to game 162. SCM could have made this entire rant at several points during the 2004 and 2007 seasons and been as justified as he is right now. And in fact more than a couple did. So take that for what it's worth as well.

[a700hitter]

After losing my parents within 3 1/2 weeks of each other at the beginning of the year and my brother having a heart attack a month later, I think have gained perspective. It still sucks that they are losing, and the games do give me a headache, but it is quite a strange ride for the 2011 team-- extreme ups and downs. They sucked terribly at the beginning. They were dominant through the middle of the season, and now they look almost completely inept. I can't reconcile the swing in their performance. A few injuries should not make a team go from the 27 Yankees to the 62 Mets. It's sort of comical. Our OF play in the last week has been a blooper reel. The baserunning has been atrocious too. I will remain hopeful though the end, and I will have fun with it, but I will be brutally honest in my assessment of their shortcomings.

[Dojji]

A few injuries can absolutely make a difference between a team being great and being awful. Especially if one of those injuries is to Youkilis, who not very long ago was our best player.

[iortiz]

I was at the games on Saturday and Sunday, and I have to agree that there is a lot less passion. In the biggest series of the year with a packed house, the fans just didn't seem to care about what was going on on the field. Late in the game on Saturday in a close tense game, the crowd did the wave for at least half an inning and then of course they all sang Sweet Caroline to each other. On Sunday, there was also little passion. It's like the game is only part of the experience. I would have rationalized the lack of passion on Sunday on the fact that they fell far behind early and they stayed behind, but It was the same lack of enthusiasm in a close game on Saturday. Where are the real fans?

 

Too many people on this site act like you have killed their mother if you criticize a player. They will go nuts trying to prove you wrong, and they get personal about it. We should be able to have opinions and not get attacked personally. Criticism and emotion in a game thread has to be expected. That's what passionate fans do. Are they always right? No, but what is the point of arguing to win a stupid point with a person who is already emotionally upset that his team is losing. It's a recipe for a nasty argument. There is no sense in defending the FO. Management is always to blame in every organization. Period. They reap the rewards of success, so they have to take accountability for failure. We as fans are allowed to disagree with managements decisions. We are allowed to have opinions. This is not science. I am sorry sabrenaticians, but almost nothing is provable by your stats, because we cannot compare it to the road not taken. We just don't know how things would have turned out if they had made different decisions. All that we can do is judge based on results. I don't buy the "it could have been worse" argument. To me that is not the argument of an optimist. Could things have been worse? I think that is always the case, but I think it is possible that things could have been better.

 

Agree 100%

 

I wasn't sure what a pink hat was, now I know, here is called "Villamelon"

 

I'm ok with showing optimism about the team, but another completely diferent thing is to be blinded. Seems like the Red Sox marketing and advertasing went very deep into some minds around here. After an horrid season like Lackey's, Crawford's, Wake's, etc. or defend a GM which has plenty made a lot of bad decisions and then excusing them and even celebrating singing Sweet Caroline (even I like ND ) doesn't make sense to me at all. Maybe I'm getting old but some around here always expect claps at every single play even if they play over and over and over again horrid baseball, and the excuses are often "s*** happens" or "look at his past numbers" or "we already won 2 WS" or "what else can he do?", I refuse to buy that crap.

[jacksonianmarch]

If the sox miss out on the playoffs, this will be one of the most historic collapses of all time. The sox were billed as a team that was '27 Yankees type good and if they miss the playoffs, then they will be the laughingstock of baseball. Fans are right to be miffed and critical. Those who arent critical or pissed at the team right now arent real fans. It's all well and good to sit there and say that you're the best, but if your team is s***ing the bed later in the yr, it's all about perspective? Seems like a whole lotta fair weather fandom to me

[iortiz]

If the sox miss out on the playoffs' date=' this will be one of the most historic collapses of all time. The sox were billed as a team that was '27 Yankees type good and if they miss the playoffs, then they will be the laughingstock of baseball. Fans are right to be miffed and critical. [b']Those who arent critical or pissed at the team right now arent real fans.[/b] It's all well and good to sit there and say that you're the best, but if your team is s***ing the bed later in the yr, it's all about perspective? Seems like a whole lotta fair weather fandom to me

 

Exactly, because somehow it hurts you.

[Palodios]

If the sox miss out on the playoffs' date=' this will be one of the most historic collapses of all time. The sox were billed as a team that was '27 Yankees type good and if they miss the playoffs, then they will be the laughingstock of baseball. Fans are right to be miffed and critical. Those who arent critical or pissed at the team right now arent real fans. It's all well and good to sit there and say that you're the best, but if your team is s***ing the bed later in the yr, it's all about perspective? Seems like a whole lotta fair weather fandom to me[/quote']

 

I'll be pissed when they miss the playoffs. Until then, I'll have faith in my team.

[SCM33]

To me' date=' throwing your hands up in the air and screaming "I give up on being a fan" is, by definition, not being a fan.[/quote']

 

Thats not what I said. I said they suck and should be held accountable, not coddled and given a pat on the ass telling them everything is ok. Its not, and the excuses for this team need to end.

 

Because they actually have this thing called "perspective."

No, its called objective, and not many Sox fans are. They are homers. You rip a player or the team and get blasted even when its clear they are not playing well. Like a700 said, when you rip a player, people take it personal.

 

 

There are fans of at least 24 teams that would kill to be able to field this squad in its entirety' date=' warts and all. [/quote']

I dont give a s*** what fans of 24 other teams want. 24 other teams dont have the luxury of paying John Lackey 18 million, or Drew 14 Million, or Cameron 9 Million to do NOTHING. Again, this is what the front office wants the fans to think. Why not accountability rather than excuses?

[iortiz]

I dont give a s*** what fans of 24 other teams want. 24 other teams dont have the luxury of paying John Lackey 18 million, or Drew 14 Million, or Cameron 9 Million to do NOTHING. Again, this is what the front office wants the fans to think. Why not accountability rather than excuses?

 

This^^.

 

As I said, Hell is full of excuses and good intentions, Heaven? accountability.

 

Hell, I'd like to manage an organization which waste those tons of money and then everyone comes around and tell me, "you are the best, you already gave us a couple of WS so, don't worry, everything is gonna be alright, besides, what else could you do? Keep going, nothing is gonna happen, maybe the next year you'll do better, meantime keep wasting money" Really? Do you ever listen at yourselves?

 

Our pitching depth is a f***ing joke and one of the WROST in all baseball, and the GM doesn't take the accountability? Really? even with plenty access to the money? You must be kidding me, right?

 

That doesn't happen around here, trust me, you get fired, as simple as that.

[TedWilliams101]

Thats not what I said. I said they suck and should be held accountable, not coddled and given a pat on the ass telling them everything is ok. Its not, and the excuses for this team need to end.

 

No, its called objective, and not many Sox fans are. They are homers. You rip a player or the team and get blasted even when its clear they are not playing well. Like a700 said, when you rip a player, people take it personal.

 

 

 

I dont give a s*** what fans of 24 other teams want. 24 other teams dont have the luxury of paying John Lackey 18 million, or Drew 14 Million, or Cameron 9 Million to do NOTHING. Again, this is what the front office wants the fans to think. Why not accountability rather than excuses?

 

Yeah, lets just look through this:

Lackey: 1.3 War - $18 million

Crawford: 0.3 War - $20 million ($14 million base + $6 million bonus paid out this season)

JD Drew: -0.1 War - $14 million

Cameron: 0.4 War (including FLA, so much lower as a RS) - $8 million

Matsuzaka: 0.2 War - $10 million

Wakefield: 0.8 War - $2 million

Jenks: 0.1 War - $6 million

Tek: 0.5 War - $2 million

 

That's (not counting Cameron war since it include FLA) 3.1 Wins above average for a whopping total of $80 million.

 

Just to put that in perspective, that's almost DOUBLE the payroll of the Rays. Just let that sink in. We spent nearly double their payroll on players who have given us practically nothing this season. Throw $80 million into a pile, cover it with lighter fluid and throw a match on it. That's what this Red Sox team did just for 2011.

[boston22407]

Thats not what I said. I said they suck and should be held accountable, not coddled and given a pat on the ass telling them everything is ok. Its not, and the excuses for this team need to end.

 

No, its called objective, and not many Sox fans are. They are homers. You rip a player or the team and get blasted even when its clear they are not playing well. Like a700 said, when you rip a player, people take it personal.

 

 

 

I dont give a s*** what fans of 24 other teams want. 24 other teams dont have the luxury of paying John Lackey 18 million, or Drew 14 Million, or Cameron 9 Million to do NOTHING. Again, this is what the front office wants the fans to think. Why not accountability rather than excuses?

 

Right on

This team has a f***ing excuse for everything in the book,To the NL rules are un-fair to injuries(If they make the playoffs and lose what are they can say it is hard to play baseball in the cold).You don't hear New york or the rays bitching about any of that stuff.I'm done with this team excuses and the only person who i have heard not make a excuse is Pap from last night,Its about f***ing time some one showed some balls

[iortiz]

Yeah, lets just look through this:

Lackey: 1.3 War - $18 million

Crawford: 0.3 War - $20 million ($14 million base + $6 million bonus paid out this season)

JD Drew: -0.1 War - $14 million

Cameron: 0.4 War (including FLA, so much lower as a RS) - $8 million

Matsuzaka: 0.2 War - $10 million

Wakefield: 0.8 War - $2 million

Jenks: 0.1 War - $6 million

Tek: 0.5 War - $2 million

 

That's (not counting Cameron war since it include FLA) 3.1 Wins above average for a whopping total of $80 million.

 

Just to put that in perspective, that's almost DOUBLE the payroll of the Rays. Just let that sink in. We spent nearly double their payroll on players who have given us practically nothing this season. Throw $80 million into a pile, cover it with lighter fluid and throw a match on it. That's what this Red Sox team did just for 2011.

 

Convincing but at the same time shocking numbers.

 

The GM is not responsible?... My ass.

[SoxSport]

The problem is the pitching is shot to hell. And the management didn't fix it.

 

It's a management problem. They made bad choices.

[TheKilo]

This needs to be said. This team is the most unlikeable collection of losers I've ever seen in my life. I hope they miss out on the playoffs because wholesale changes are needed and they will not come if they make the playoffs.

 

The only players you can build around are Lester, Ellsbury, Pedroia, and Gonzalez. Everyone else should be on the chopping block.

 

I also feel Francona will not survive the season if they collapse. If they don't fire him, he will leave on his own accord.