The Official 2010 Hot Stove Thread.

[Dojji]

There are prospects with good prospects and prospects with no prospects. The Yanks traded the latter. If the Sox had done the move, people here would have been calling it "low cost high reward."

 

Last year was a worst case scenario for the Sox bullpen? Who's fault was that? It's not like they were in a plane crash or there was a cholera epidemic. They just stunk, and the FO didn't adjust or correct it in season.

 

THere's a level of damage you can correct in season and a level you can't. When 3 setup caliber relievers all die at once, there's only so much you can do.

 

And riding on Kerry freaking Wood when pitchers with a much better recent track record such as Oki and RR had already fallen apart would have been a fool's gamble no matter how we did it.

[ORS]

I don't buy into the luck theory of building a bullpen. Bullpens are a huge factor in today's game. If such a significant factor in the game is left to chance' date=' then some new blood and new ideas are needed in major league baseball front offices. I think the successful teams adapt throughout the season and continue to build their bullpens after the start of the season. Last year, the Sox FO efforts to build the bullpen during the season were woeful. The internal candidates were generally ineffective, and they made no significant moves outside the organization. They take accountability for the bullpen. It had no significant injuries, and I don't buy the crap shoot theory. There has to be accountability.[/quote']

I don't care if you buy it, it's still the reality. By your standard every, and I literally mean every, current GM should be fired for their inability to build a good BP consistently. They all suffer flops from previously "proven" players they acquired. They all experience "WTF" moments from their own guys turning into a pumpkin without warning. The teams that have dominant bullpens are regulalry staffed with castoffs that blew up on another team. This is the reality. If your "accountability" identifies them all as deficient, then it's not a standard, it's fantasy.

[Dojji]

It doesn't matter ORS, since his "standard" is based on 100% fertilizer-grade hindsight anyway.

[BSN07]

The Red Sox have already spoken with the Diamondbacks about Upton, tweets Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports.

 

You may have missed it yesterday, but USA Today's Bob Nightengale listed Diamondbacks right fielder Justin Upton as one of the big names GMs say are already "under discussion." GM Kevin Towers elaborated:

 

"I'm open to listening on anybody. We got more hits on Upton and [stephen] Drew. They're difficult to move, but sometimes to make your club better, you have to move good players. You never know when a deal might present itself.

 

I like it. I'll take him over an expensive Werth or a 100M Crawford.

[jacksonianmarch]

Upton would take a massive, massive payoff in terms of prospects and MLB ready talent.

[BSN07]

Upton would take a massive' date=' massive payoff in terms of prospects and MLB ready talent.[/quote']

 

Maybe but he is paid like an elite star from 2013-2015. Towers may not want to gamble Upton turns into that or not. It will take a good package. But the $ will bring it down some.

[Palodios]

Considering that he's only hitting .800 and signed at 5/50, I'm sure the Dbacks will be more than willing to consider trading him.

[jacksonianmarch]

He just turned 23 yrs old and has slugged 60 big league homers already. He also regressed a bit in 2010, but the power, speed and defense are there. This kid got a big contract because the DBacks wanted to retain him. He is gonna be a star in this league for a long time

[GWSoxFan]

Upton would take a massive' date=' massive payoff in terms of prospects and MLB ready talent.[/quote']

 

Exactly, and given the FoxSports report said they wanted a bat, a back end reliever, and a starter, you have to believe that the conversation between Theo and Towers probably went something like this:

 

Theo: "What do you want for Upton?"

 

Towers: "Kelly, Rizzo, and Bard"

 

Theo: click

[Meh]

Upton would take a massive' date=' massive payoff in terms of prospects and MLB ready talent.[/quote']

 

Yeah, Upton is one of those guys I'd love to have just to trade away. He's going to bring in a ton and he's probably going to be worth it. My friend was talking about a Gardner, Betances/Banuelos, Romine and Joba package. I just didn't see a need for the Yankees to be honest.

[Palodios]

I just don't see any advantage in signing Upton over Crawford. Likely the same number of years, worse hitting, far fewer steals, worse defense, less security plus a boatload of cheap quality players... Is all that worth the 35 million difference?

[jacksonianmarch]

Yeah' date=' Upton is one of those guys I'd love to have just to trade away. He's going to bring in a ton and he's probably going to be worth it. My friend was talking about a Gardner, Betances/Banuelos, Romine and Joba package. I just didn't see a need for the Yankees to be honest.[/quote']

 

I agree. There isnt a need right now. Our OF of Swisher, Granderson, and Gardner played good D, was reasonable price wise, and produced very well offensively. I wouldnt fix what isnt broken

[Meh]

Uggla to the Braves for Dunn and Infante. Wow, Cashman needs to be on the phone with their GM. Guy must be retarded or something. He seems to be getting the worst in every deal.

[jacksonianmarch]

They needed to cut costs IMO with Buck coming over. But that really isnt much of a haul at all.

[a700hitter]

It doesn't matter ORS' date=' since his "standard" is based on 100% fertilizer-grade hindsight anyway.[/quote']Absolute BS. Check the game threads in April. I identified our bullpen as atrocious in the first month, and I was not alone. No hindsight there. I always put my opinion out there early and unequivocally-- more so than anyone on this board. Sometimes I am wrong,but I was 100% right about the bullpen without hindsight. So, I call BS on you Doji.

[a700hitter]

THere's a level of damage you can correct in season and a level you can't. When 3 setup caliber relievers all die at once, there's only so much you can do.

They didn't die or suffer some other freakish act of god. They just sucked. Who gets the blame for stocking a roster with sucky players? Answer: The GM. Sorry but that is just the way it is.

[ORS]

LOL!

 

It's not hindsight once the results start coming in. I went to bed last night when the Eagles were up 21-0 after the first 8:00 of the 1st quarter because I said the game was over.....but that doesn't make it a prediction.

[a700hitter]

LOL!

 

It's not hindsight once the results start coming in. I went to bed last night when the Eagles were up 21-0 after the first 8:00 of the 1st quarter because I said the game was over.....but that doesn't make it a prediction.

Thank you for making my point for me. If I could make the observation that the bullpen sucked in April, it must also have been obvious to the FO. Yet, none of their moves over the next 5 months improved the situation. Bad job.

[VA Sox Fan]

LOL!

 

It's not hindsight once the results start coming in. I went to bed last night when the Eagles were up 21-0 after the first 8:00 of the 1st quarter because I said the game was over.....but that doesn't make it a prediction.

 

Zing! Great "prediction"

[ORS]

Thank you for making my point for me. If I could make the observation that the bullpen sucked in April' date=' it must also have been obvious to the FO. Yet, none of their moves over the next 5 months improved the situation. Bad job.[/quote']

Right, because everyone knows you dump players with a good track record after a couple of weeks in April. I mean, you wanted them to get rid of Ortiz, right?

 

The primary tenet to your point was that they failed because they stocked the BP with "sucky" players. However, this was not an observation you made before the season. And, for good reason, the BP's top 4 pitchers all had a good track record going into the season. So, to start, they didn't stock the BP with "sucky" players, that only became apparent after the season started. And, in baseball, you don't cut bait on previously good players in April, or even May. You know this.

 

Anyway, you are right, they absolutely should be held accountable for the team, I don't think anyone is arguing that they shouldn't. The issue people seem to have is with your assertion that there was some writing on the wall that would have made the failures of the players predictable and avoidable. Lackey, Beckett, MDC, Okajima, Ramon Ramirez.....they all s*** the bed, but nobody, not even you, saw this coming into the year. Sucks for them (the FO), but I don't know how they could have avoided that, and from the looks of things, despite all your blather, neither do you.

 

As for doing something about it, by the time most reasonable baseball people would have said, "It's not looking like they'll get better", they had a slew of other issues (catcher, OF, 2B ) to address.

[a700hitter]

Right' date=' because everyone knows you dump players with a good track record after a couple of weeks in April. I mean, you wanted them to get rid of Ortiz, right?[/quote']Are you equating the importance to the Sox of Ortiz with bullpen pieces like Ramon Ramirez, MDC and Oki? Are you equating their track records? I hope not, because there is no comparison. Bullpen pieces like those guys are like disposable tissue paper compared to Ortiz.

 

The primary tenet to your point was that they failed because they stocked the BP with "sucky" players. However' date=' this was not an observation you made before the season. And, for good reason, the BP's top 4 pitchers all had a good track record going into the season. So, to start, they didn't stock the BP with "sucky" players, that only became apparent after the season started. And, in baseball, you don't cut bait on previously good players in April, or even May. You know this. [/quote']They broke camp with Schoenweiss as the second left hander in the pen with 90 year old Alan Embree waiting in the wings.. Schoenweiss is the s*** that s*** scrapes off its shoes, and I was very vocal about that in the first week of the season. The pen was weak and thin from the beginning and MDC's velocity was a big concern for all of ST. When a pitcher has lost it, you have to know when to cut bait. They didn't. RR also was atrocious in ST. Certainly, 5 or 6 weeks into the season it was evident that the pen needed help. Like I said, if I could see it coming, so could they. Yet, they did nothing to improve the situation.

[Palodios]

Like I said' date=' if I could see it coming, so could they. Yet, they did nothing to improve the situation.[/quote']

 

Once again, Theo explicitly talked about this situation-- none of the good relievers were going to come cheap. They didn't want to overpay for one year rentals on bullpen players when the best two teams in the majors are in your division, 3 of your 4 outfielders are on the DL(and the 4th is JD Drew), and four of your six starters are having career worse seasons. Its just not worth Bowden and Doubront, it just isn't.

[a700hitter]

Once again' date=' Theo explicitly talked about this situation-- none of the good relievers were going to come cheap. They didn't want to overpay for one year rentals on bullpen players when the best two teams in the majors are in your division, 3 of your 4 outfielders are on the DL(and the 4th is JD Drew), and four of your six starters are having career worse seasons. Its just not worth Bowden and Doubront, it just isn't.[/quote']Rationalizations by Theo. Other teams salvaged their bullpens. The Twins recovered from the devastating loss of Nathan. Theo's track record with bullpens is not good. Hopefully, he turns things around in 2011.

[a700hitter]

RED SOX'S DOUBRONT: GOING, GOING ...

 

At least two GMs are highly skeptical that left-hander Felix Doubront will play a major role in the Red Sox's bullpen next season.

 

Doubront, they say, is more likely to be traded.

 

The Sox frequently offered Doubront in past trade discussions, and the departure of pitching coach John Farrell to the Blue Jays deprived the pitcher of his leading advocate in the organization.

 

One GM says of Doubront: “It's guaranteed he's traded by next July 31, and probably this offseason.” A second adds: “They would part with him in a heartbeat to upgrade.”

 

Red Sox GM Theo Epstein, however, refutes the idea that Doubront is likely to be traded.

 

"That report couldn't be further from the truth," Epstein said. "We value Felix tremendously. He has a definite future. We see him as a starter long-term, and he could impact our bullpen or rotation in 2011."

 

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/Adrian-Beltre-and-Carl-Crawford-compare-well-with-all-time-greats-111410

[VA Sox Fan]

Rationalizations by Theo. Other teams salvaged their bullpens. The Twins recovered from the devastating loss of Nathan. Theo's track record with bullpens is not good. Hopefully' date=' he turns things around in 2011.[/quote']

 

Hopefully. But if not. Sox should hire Jerry Jones.

[Spudboy]

Are you equating the importance to the Sox of Ortiz with bullpen pieces like Ramon Ramirez, MDC and Oki? Are you equating their track records? I hope not, because there is no comparison. Bullpen pieces like those guys are like disposable tissue paper compared to Ortiz.

 

They broke camp with Schoenweiss as the second left hander in the pen with 90 year old Alan Embree waiting in the wings.. Schoenweiss is the s*** that s*** scrapes off its shoes, and I was very vocal about that in the first week of the season. The pen was weak and thin from the beginning and MDC's velocity was a big concern for all of ST. When a pitcher has lost it, you have to know when to cut bait. They didn't. RR also was atrocious in ST. Certainly, 5 or 6 weeks into the season it was evident that the pen needed help. Like I said, if I could see it coming, so could they. Yet, they did nothing to improve the situation.

 

A factual account of events.

[Palodios]

Rationalizations by Theo. Other teams salvaged their bullpens. The Twins recovered from the devastating loss of Nathan. Theo's track record with bullpens is not good. Hopefully' date=' he turns things around in 2011.[/quote']

 

Its not like pulling a bunny out of a hat. ALL FIVE of the guys that were on the bullpen all last year absolutely underperformed. There is absolutely NO WAY you can predict your ENTIRE BULLPEN completely collapsing, absolutely none. They found decent performances from Atchison and Doubront, but nothing short of selling the farm for two or three one-year rentals would have fixed this bullpen. You also have to realize that on paper, the starting rotation looked like it was going to be absolutely unstoppable, and BP innings were going to be much much better than they were. Throw in the largest number of Extra Innings game in the MLB, and you have a recipe for disaster.

[Spudboy]

Hopefully. But if not. Sox should hire Jerry Jones.

 

:lol:

[a700hitter]

A factual account of events.

Sometimes the facts alone are damning. A bullpen that was third from the bottom of the league and a defense that was next to last. Those are facts. No opinion or editorializing is necessary.

[jacksonianmarch]

Its not like pulling a bunny out of a hat. ALL FIVE of the guys that were on the bullpen all last year absolutely underperformed. There is absolutely NO WAY you can predict your ENTIRE BULLPEN completely collapsing' date=' absolutely none. They found decent performances from Atchison and Doubront, but nothing short of selling the farm for two or three one-year rentals would have fixed this bullpen. You also have to realize that on paper, the starting rotation looked like it was going to be absolutely unstoppable, and BP innings were going to be much much better than they were. Throw in the largest number of Extra Innings game in the MLB, and you have a recipe for disaster.[/quote']

 

I think what a700 is saying is that when the pen bombed out, the sox FO didnt go out and get a guy like Capps or Wood. Capps represented a clear upgrade but costed more in prospect load and Wood represented a free potential upgrade. Either way, they had their options. That being said, I dont think that their path was a poor one. By the time they needed a reliever, they also needed a 1b and a 2b and were missing their catchers for 3 weeks. Once the injuries hit, I think the sox FO took a mulligan and held onto their chips.

 

And for a700, I think the sox could very well have made a run at 2010, but they would have left themselves dry come the trading deadline. I have a distinct feeling that the Padres are going to be in the cellar this yr and will be dealing off AdGon at the first sign of trouble. If the sox went balls out last yr to fill all their holes, they wouldnt have anyone to trade for him.