The Official 2010 Hot Stove Thread.

[a700hitter]

Its not like pulling a bunny out of a hat. ALL FIVE of the guys that were on the bullpen all last year absolutely underperformed. There is absolutely NO WAY you can predict your ENTIRE BULLPEN completely collapsing' date=' absolutely none. They found decent performances from Atchison and Doubront, but nothing short of selling the farm for two or three one-year rentals would have fixed this bullpen. You also have to realize that on paper, the starting rotation looked like it was going to be absolutely unstoppable, and BP innings were going to be much much better than they were. Throw in the largest number of Extra Innings game in the MLB, and you have a recipe for disaster.[/quote']By the end of April, predictions were no longer necessary as ORS has pointed out. It was evident.

[a700hitter]

I think what a700 is saying is that when the pen bombed out, the sox FO didnt go out and get a guy like Capps or Wood. Capps represented a clear upgrade but costed more in prospect load and Wood represented a free potential upgrade. Either way, they had their options. That being said, I dont think that their path was a poor one. By the time they needed a reliever, they also needed a 1b and a 2b and were missing their catchers for 3 weeks. Once the injuries hit, I think the sox FO took a mulligan and held onto their chips.

 

And for a700, I think the sox could very well have made a run at 2010, but they would have left themselves dry come the trading deadline. I have a distinct feeling that the Padres are going to be in the cellar this yr and will be dealing off AdGon at the first sign of trouble. If the sox went balls out last yr to fill all their holes, they wouldnt have anyone to trade for him.

I agree with most of what you said, but breaking camp with Schoenweiss pitching important innings was a huge red flag that things were not good from the start.

[Dojji]

I think what a700 is saying is that when the pen bombed out' date=' the sox FO didnt go out and get a guy like Capps or Wood. Capps represented a clear upgrade but costed more in prospect load and Wood represented a free potential upgrade. Either way, they had their options. [/quote']

 

And they explored them. But at the time they were in position to make anything resembling a move they were already 5 games out and trending down and there was rather little you could reasonably expect one reliever more or less to have done about it. The season was already a longshot and you don't spend major assets on a longshot if you have a chance at a better season next year. At some point you cut your losses rather than performing CPR on a bloated rotting corpse because all you're doing is getting your hands dirty for no good reason.

[Dojji]

By the end of April' date=' predictions were no longer necessary as ORS has pointed out. It was evident.[/quote']

 

By the end of April, as ORS pointed out, most of the dice that came up against us were already cast and the very same dynamics that kept us from trading for a reliever then were still with us on August 31st -- namely, that not enough other pieces were performing up to reasonable standards to make it likely that one more half decent reliever would save this team.

 

It turns out that the decision to reposition for 2011 and beyond was absolutely the right one, as the injury fairy only came back harder and stronger after the deadline. Once Youks went down the season was over and anything we'd spent on short term stopgaps would have been a total and complete waste.

 

You can rant about accountability, the fact is that you don't have the stomach for a bad year and are trying to compensate by loudly blaming Theo for having one in the first place. Yes, bad years happen. Yes, bad years happen to good GM's. Yes they should still be accountable, but there's a difference between "accountable" and "it's all your fault" and it's a distinction you are very loudly failing to grasp.

[a700hitter]

And they explored them. But at the time they were in position to make anything resembling a move they were already 5 games out and trending down and there was rather little you could reasonably expect one reliever more or less to have done about it. The season was already a longshot and you don't spend major assets on a longshot if you have a chance at a better season next year. At some point you cut your losses rather than performing CPR on a bloated rotting corpse because all you're doing is getting your hands dirty for no good reason.

The pen stunk when it left Ft. Myers. There was no excuse for that. Schoenweiss was pitching important innings. That's just not acceptable.

[Dojji]

The pen did not stink when it left Ft. Myers and Shoenweiss was the 6th reliever in the depth chart when we broke camp behind Paps, Bard, Oki, MDC, and RR, which is about right for a waiver claim gamble. You are overblowing the nature of the problem and again mistaking accountability for blame. The two terms are not interchangeable.

[a700hitter]

By the end of April, as ORS pointed out, most of the dice that came up against us were already cast and the very same dynamics that kept us from trading for a reliever then were still with us on August 31st -- namely, that not enough other pieces were performing up to reasonable standards to make it likely that one more half decent reliever would save this team.

 

It turns out that the decision to reposition for 2011 and beyond was absolutely the right one, as the injury fairy only came back harder and stronger after the deadline. Once Youks went down the season was over and anything we'd spent on short term stopgaps would have been a total and complete waste.

I give up. Taking a team with the second highest payroll in baseball and ending up with the third worst bullpen and the second worst defense was just plain old bad luck. They caught some bad breaks.

[Dojji]

And so, with all the faults in his logic laid bare, a700 reveals once again his patented maturity and stiff upper lip, and resorts to passive aggressive BS that makes no point at all but just makes people feel embarrassed for him. Not the first time, probably not the last.

[a700hitter]

By the end of April, as ORS pointed out, most of the dice that came up against us were already cast and the very same dynamics that kept us from trading for a reliever then were still with us on August 31st -- namely, that not enough other pieces were performing up to reasonable standards to make it likely that one more half decent reliever would save this team.

 

It turns out that the decision to reposition for 2011 and beyond was absolutely the right one, as the injury fairy only came back harder and stronger after the deadline. Once Youks went down the season was over and anything we'd spent on short term stopgaps would have been a total and complete waste.

 

You can rant about accountability, the fact is that you don't have the stomach for a bad year and are trying to compensate by loudly blaming Theo for having one in the first place. Yes, bad years happen. Yes, bad years happen to good GM's. Yes they should still be accountable, but there's a difference between "accountable" and "it's all your fault" and it's a distinction you are very loudly failing to grasp.

So, he's accountable, but with excuses? That's just whiny. It's not accountability.

 

As for Schoenweiss, check the game logs. He was pitching very important innings, and he was not the 6th guy out of the pen in those games. He had no business being on any roster, never mind a roster that cost around $170 million.

[a700hitter]

And so' date=' with all the faults in his logic laid bare, a700 reveals once again his patented maturity and stiff upper lip, and resorts to passive aggressive BS that makes no point at all but just makes people feel embarrassed for him. Not the first time, probably not the last.[/quote']Once again you resort to personal attacks. Tssk tssk. Personally insulting an opponent who has openly admitted defeat--that's not very magnanimous. Is it?

[Dojji]

Once again you resort to personal attacks. Tssk tssk. Personally insulting an opponent who has openly admitted defeat--that's not very magnanimous. Is it?

 

Dude, I know what passive aggressive is. If you were really admitting defeat, you'd just slink off and do something else for awhile like I do when I hold a dumb position and get my head handed to me. You're still fighting, just trying to use a transparently underhanded tactic to do it where it doesn't seem polite to fight back.

[a700hitter]

Dude' date=' I know what passive aggressive is. If you were really admitting defeat, you'd just slink off and do something else for awhile like I do when I hold a dumb position and get my head handed to me. You're still fighting, just trying to use a transparently underhanded tactic to do it where it doesn't seem polite to fight back.[/quote']So, you think a personal attack is justified?

[Dojji]

So' date=' he's accountable, but with excuses? That's just whiny. It's not accountability.[/quote']

 

What's also not accountability is some jerk in a forum with no official connection to any particular major league baseball franchise,whindmilling his arms and whinging his eyes out trying to blame everyone for everything ever.. So I guess we're dead even there.

 

As for Schoenweiss, check the game logs. He was pitching very important innings, and he was not the 6th guy out of the pen in those games. He had no business being on any roster, never mind a roster that cost around $170 million.

 

Everyone is going to pitch the 7thg or 8th occasionally in a bullpen, especially when your Plan A guys are getting lit up. Your statement even if true is not particularly alarming.

 

He was a matchup lefty, so he pitched some matchups in high leverage situations. It was early in the year, and seeing if the guy could do it under live fire was something that needed to happen if he was going to be counted on later, heck every team experiments like that in April when the games aren't percieved to be quite as important.

 

It didn't work, he was released, end of story, to try to turn that into some mad conspiracy theory where Shoeneweiss was used regularly as a setup reliever is just... bizarre. It shows no connection to reality much less any understanding of how a season is played through at any level, much less the majors.

[Dojji]

So' date=' you think a personal attack is justified?[/quote']

 

So you like to ask leading questions?

 

So you like to try to derail the conversation with sideline nonsense just because you don't like how it's going?

 

I should stop here. Your opinion is not grounded in reality and I'm getting really tired of the sideline BS. I'll come back in a bit later if you actually manage to scavenge up a point somewhere

[a700hitter]

What's also not accountability is some jerk in a forum with no official connection to any particular major league baseball franchise,whindmilling his arms and whinging his eyes out trying to blame everyone for everything ever.. So I guess we're dead even there.

"Some jerk" --more name-calling?

[a700hitter]

So you like to ask leading questions?

 

So you like to try to derail the conversation with sideline nonsense just because you don't like how it's going?

 

I should stop here. Your opinion is not grounded in reality and I'm getting really tired of the sideline BS. I'll come back in a bit later if you actually manage to scavenge up a point somewhere

... and more personal insults? Are you done?

[Will617]

I just don't see any advantage in signing Upton over Crawford. Likely the same number of years' date=' worse hitting, far fewer steals, worse defense, less security plus a boatload of cheap quality players... Is all that worth the 35 million difference?[/quote']

 

Yes. Upton has enormous potential, Crawford has probably reached his ceiling. Upton also gets on base at about the same rate that Crawford does. He doesn't have the speed or defense (although his defense is still very good). He's probably a more secure product than Crawford, given that Crawford's played many years on turf and the fact that speed declines relatively quickly compared to other tools.

He's 23, and he will be paid far below what he is actually worth (over the course of his contract) even if he isn't a superstar. He also still stands to improve from ad evelopmental standpoint given his age.

[Spudboy]

I give up. Taking a team with the second highest payroll in baseball and ending up with the third worst bullpen and the second worst defense was just plain old bad luck. They caught some bad breaks.

 

:lol:

 

If you are 25 years old ( or there abouts), well yeah.

 

:lol:

[a700hitter]

Yes. Upton has enormous potential, Crawford has probably reached his ceiling. Upton also gets on base at about the same rate that Crawford does. He doesn't have the speed or defense (although his defense is still very good). He's probably a more secure product than Crawford, given that Crawford's played many years on turf and the fact that speed declines relatively quickly compared to other tools.

He's 23, and he will be paid far below what he is actually worth (over the course of his contract) even if he isn't a superstar. He also still stands to improve from ad evelopmental standpoint given his age.

Does he have any dog in him like his brother? We don't need that.

[yeszir]

Please don't make me lock/split the hot stove thread. If you want to have e-fights, do it elsewhere.

[example1]

So, he's accountable, but with excuses? That's just whiny. It's not accountability.

 

Theo has said the pen underperformed horribly. Everyone acknowledges it. Sounds like accountability to me.

 

What would you propose to be sure that the team will never have a bad bullpen again?

[Keeper]

Yes. Upton has enormous potential, Crawford has probably reached his ceiling. Upton also gets on base at about the same rate that Crawford does. He doesn't have the speed or defense (although his defense is still very good). He's probably a more secure product than Crawford, given that Crawford's played many years on turf and the fact that speed declines relatively quickly compared to other tools.

He's 23, and he will be paid far below what he is actually worth (over the course of his contract) even if he isn't a superstar. He also still stands to improve from ad evelopmental standpoint given his age.

 

Good post. If the trading price is right, I'd much rather have Upton than Crawford. Younger, hasn't reached his ceiling yet, 5-tool player. What's not to like?

[jacksonianmarch]

Marco Scutaro is drawing trade interest per rotoworld

[BSN07]

Theo has said the pen underperformed horribly. Everyone acknowledges it. Sounds like accountability to me.

 

What would you propose to be sure that the team will never have a bad bullpen again?

 

a700 needs some sort of sacrificial lamb to hold "accountable/place blame." He's not going to be happy until someone gets punished for the Red Sox not making the playoffs.

 

IMO he's spent too much time "behind enemy lines"

[The Celtbot]

Marco Scutaro is drawing trade interest per rotoworld

 

On that note, what do you guys make of this guy?

 

TOKYO—Japanese shortstop Tsuyoshi Nishioka is free to move to Major League Baseball via the posting system.

 

Nishioka's team in Japan made the announcement Wednesday.

 

MLB teams will have four business days to bid for the negotiating rights to the 26-year-old Nishioka, who helped the Lotte Marines win the 2010 Japan Series.

 

The posting system allows big league clubs to bid for negotiating rights to Japanese players who have yet to become free agents.

 

Nishioka led the Pacific League with a .346 batting average this season and had 206 hits, becoming the first Pacific League player to get 200 hits since Ichiro Suzuki.

 

I could see us trading Scutaro and starting the season with Lowrie if we had to, I think Lowrie would do fine as long as he stayed healthy, but thought this Japanese guy seem interesting. I'm sure he would gain a lot of interest from many different teams though.

[a700hitter]

Theo has said the pen underperformed horribly. Everyone acknowledges it. Sounds like accountability to me.

 

What would you propose to be sure that the team will never have a bad bullpen again?

Is there really a question here or just snark? One of the things I like about Theo is that he does stand up and take accountability. Since you are weighing in against me on this issue, but you have not asked me a serious question, I have a serious question for you. Theo is no longer the new kid on the block. He has an extensive body of work that we can judge. My question to you is how do you assess his track record in building a bullpen without all the qualifiers about bullpens being inconsistent etc. All GMs are faced with the same frustrations about relievers. How does his performance rate against his peers.

[Palodios]

We're better off with Scutaro and Lowrie. Bulging discs tend not to go away, and Lowrie is still a big injury risk. Scutaro won't get enough on the market to warrant trading him, plus he's about as big a gamer as you'd find, and the Sox love that.

 

Apparently this Japanese SS is the best hitter since Ichiro. Sounds interesting.

[VA Sox Fan]

a700 needs some sort of sacrificial lamb to hold "accountable/place blame." He's not going to be happy until someone gets punished for the Red Sox not making the playoffs.

 

IMO he's spent too much time "behind enemy lines"

 

^ This.

[ORS]

Weaksauce. That's not a snarky question. You pontificate (your words "Ballpark Pontiff") about all the mistakes being made, so it's a legitimate question to ask for your methods of avoiding a bad bullpen. Don't cop out with a bologna accusation. Let's hear it.

[a700hitter]

a700 needs some sort of sacrificial lamb to hold "accountable/place blame." He's not going to be happy until someone gets punished for the Red Sox not making the playoffs.

 

IMO he's spent too much time "behind enemy lines"

More psycho analyzing? I may be wrong, but I don't think I have thrown around the word blame very much. There needs to be accountability whether or not there are explanations. What I read on this forum, is that we didn't make the playoffs because of injuries. That is how people are summing up the season. When I point out that our bullpen sucked as well as our defense (at the pitcher position in particular) and those issues are not related to injury, I am told that the bullpen failure was completely unforeseeable and the pitchers' fielding was Farrell's fault and we are well rid of him. When I go on to point out that the lousy bullpen was evident very early on when there was plenty of time to make adjustments, I am denigrated by being told that it was no great prediction on my part, but that it was basically too late to do anything in April to improve the pen without sacrificing the future. I point out that the Twins lost there All Star closer and they did a very nice job of building a solid pen, I am told that the Twins paid too much. It seems like there is one rationalization after another. When I have refuted all of your excuses, you guys see fit to characterize me as some meanie or hater. How juvenile. If you all weren't so intent on proving me wrong and just looked at the facts, you might realize that there were a lot of organizational failure last season, and that's why we didn't make the playoffs. For all the praise Tito got (and I love the guy) he bears some blame, because his coaches did a s***** job right down the line. They let the fundamentals in the field and on the bases go to hell. And yes the FO is accountable too. Injuries were a major factor in the teams' performance, but they did a poor job with building a bullpen and with shoring up an OF that needed shoring up in the first week of April when Cameron's abdomen tore open. They dropped the ball in certain aspects. That's all I am saying. Somehow, the "prove a700 wrong crowd" has turned that into me completely blaming the FO. That's just not true. The fact is that the injuries were not the only negative in our season. That's what I am saying. If you people don't agree with my view on this, that doesn't justify personal attacks and negative characterizations. That's really low rent stuff.

 

 

If any of you have the stomach for it, maybe you should be assessing Theo's track record for building bullpens. I don't think it is that great but what do I know-- pointing out the facts regarding his record just makes me a hater ... Right?

 

Finally BSN07, with regard to your crack about living behind enemy lines, how many Yankee fans do you have to endure during your daily life? I deal with them everyday, and the whining about injuries and bad luck is met with disdain. I don't even try it down here, and in those rare cases where a Yankee fan offers it to me as an excuse, I just say that injuries are part of the game and not an excuse. I will not whine to them.