Boston RedSox 2010 performance/post game reaction thread.

[Dipre]

In all fairness' date=' no one could have predicted all this.[/quote']

 

He predicted the Sox would score less than 800 runs citing every possible scenario as negative for the Red Sox and blatantly ignoring the difference from Varitek to V-Mart, Green to Scutaro, ignoring the effect of Safeco on Beltre, etc etc etc.

 

The fact that the team is performing this way with Ellsbury and Cameron injured plus a slump from Pedroia is just gravy. This is a good offensive ballclub, even without Bay.

[TedWilliams101]

Bay: 0.299, 0.386, 0.451, 0.837, 3HR, 24 RBI

Beltre: 0.333, 0.363, 0.514, 0.878, 7HR, 40 RBI

 

Who's the banjo hitter now?

[Dipre]

Bay: 0.299, 0.386, 0.451, 0.837, 3HR, 24 RBI

Beltre: 0.333, 0.363, 0.514, 0.878, 7HR, 40 RBI

 

Who's the banjo hitter now?

 

A lot of the guys on the Red Sox are out-performing expectations and are due for a regression, and that is undeniable, but Pedroia's slump as well as Ellsbury and Cameron returning to the lineup should actually outweigh said corrections.

 

Let's face it: The Red Sox are a solid offensive ballclub top to bottom.

[Dojji]

I still wouldn't count on Cameron and Ellsbury to come back until they are back.

 

If it's mid June and we still have one or both of these guys out it's time to make a trade IMHO. Not a blockbuster, but maybe for a solid guy who could play a couple different roles down the stretch. You can't wait forever for guys to get healthy when they might not, that's the mistake we made last year with Lowrie and while we got lucky with Green, it was the right move to bring in a veteran to finish out the season when Green wore down and it would have been the right move 2 months prior when he started showing signs of falling to earth. I have no interest in repeating the mistake in both left and center at the same time.

 

Cameron's 37 and it's just as likely that even if we get him back from his current thing, something else goes wrong -- that's part of what happens to an older ballplayer.

 

As for Ellsbury, I consider him a good bet to recover eventually, but the last time we had broken ribs on this team it took Wakefield out for the entire remainder of the season other than a handful of starts in September. Admittedly this was Wakefield's age 40 season and Ellsbury is much younger and healthier, but agaiin, I'm not counting on him until he's actually back in the lineup, and it's only going to take one of these guys not coming back to make acquiring a veteran OF a very good idea..

 

I wonder what the asking price is on David Dejesus. No surprise coming from me, I know, but he's a fit IMHO as a guy who could fill either role decently, is probably underrated enough to be affordable, is on a team that should be looking to deal its veterans, and isn't a guy who'd take playing time from someone else if all our OF's are healthy. He's also a guy I'd like to have on hand for Drew's inevitable 2 week back-related vacation down the stretch. Honestly I think he's a better fit for Boston's philosophy than Cameron in particular anyhow.

[Dipre]

A MIF who can play multiple positions wouldn't hurt either.

[Dojji]

That's what Bill Hall is for.

[Dipre]

That's what Bill Hall is for.

 

I'm not talking about a guy at the ML level, but rather a guy who can toil as insurance if Scutaro gets injured, and who has prior ML experience.

 

I like Hall quite a bit, he's been quite useful, but he's only one guy, and can only back up one position at a time.

[Dojji]

So Dipre. You're playing Theo for a day. Dayton Moore calls you on the phone. He wants to sell us David Dejesus. The proposed return is Felix Doubront . Do you touch that deal?

 

Pros:

A player who primarily plays the 2 positions we need the most at the moment, LF and CF

Doubront's future here is limited, since all 5 rotation spots are locked down for the next few years at least and Casey Kelly's waiting in the wings.

Dejesus' style meshes well with what Boston's trying to do

Would help ensure we don't have to rush Cameron and Ellsbury back.

Mike Greenwell had a good run in Boston.

 

Cons:

Dejesus is a guy who does a little of everything but is very good at nothing. He can hit doubles but is not a 20 HR hitter, can run a little but is not a speedy baserunner, Solid defensively but not great in CF, and his skill in LF is rendered less useful in Fenway. Likely he isn't going to be a great Fenway RF given his average arm. He's basically a rich man's David Murphy, in other words.

Doubront is a fairly talented LHSP who is currently among our top 10 prospects.

Dejesus could get caught without a position if Cameron and Ellsbury both do return healthy after all, making the deal look silly.

[Dojji]

I'm not talking about a guy at the ML level, but rather a guy who can toil as insurance if Scutaro gets injured, and who has prior ML experience.

 

I like Hall quite a bit, he's been quite useful, but he's only one guy, and can only back up one position at a time.

 

At the risk of making an ass of myself, isn't that what we got Tug Hulett for? minor league depth at a couple different IF positions? If you mean "a guy who can back up at SS" then say so. We definitely have a problem there and 3B as well.

 

Something like this was why I wanted to bring back Nick Green last offseason.

 

(also, if we picked up a veteran OF, Hall would be more available to spell our IF if we needed him to)

[Dipre]

At the risk of making an ass of myself, isn't that what we got Tug Hulett for? minor league depth at a couple different IF positions? If you mean "a guy who can back up at SS" then say so. We definitely have a problem there and 3B as well.

 

Something like this was why I wanted to bring back Nick Green last offseason.

 

(also, if we picked up a veteran OF, Hall would be more available to spell our IF if we needed him to)

 

Both fair points. In a limited SS, Hulett can get the job done, and backing up SS doesn't seem like such a big deal since Hall can do it on a limited basis.

[Dojji]

I definitely wouldn't want Hulett playing SS for more time than absolutely necessary. I'd honstly rather move Pedroia to SS for a couple games and play Hulett at 2B. He's not a very good SS. So it's a legitimate concern.

 

One hopes Jed Lowrie will be available at some point this season for at least emergency duty.

[Dipre]

So Dipre. You're playing Theo for a day. Dayton Moore calls you on the phone. He wants to sell us David Dejesus. The proposed return is Felix Doubront . Do you touch that deal?

 

Pros:

A player who primarily plays the 2 positions we need the most at the moment, LF and CF

Doubront's future here is limited, since all 5 rotation spots are locked down for the next few years at least and Casey Kelly's waiting in the wings.

Dejesus' style meshes well with what Boston's trying to do

Would help ensure we don't have to rush Cameron and Ellsbury back.

Mike Greenwell had a great run in Boston.

 

Cons:

Dejesus is a guy who does a little of everything but is very good at nothing. He can hit doubles but is not a 20 HR hitter, can run a little but is not a speedy baserunner, Solid defensively but not great in CF, and his skill in LF is rendered less useful in Fenway. Likely he isn't going to be a great Fenway RF given his average arm. He's basically a rich man's David Murphy, in other words.

Doubront is a fairly talented LHSP who is currently among our top 10 prospects.

Dejesus could get caught without a position if Cameron and Ellsbury both do return healthy after all, making the deal look silly.

 

I actually like DeJesus for the rest of the year, but he presents a couple issues:

 

He's yet another lefty bat with platoon problems, (even though not as pronounced as, say, Hermida's) , and like you said, he's the ultimate tweener, can do a lot of things, but none of them particularly well, on the flip side, what he can do is play good D all over the OF and he brings an element of speed to the lineup as well as flexibility since he can hit in a number of spots.

 

To answer your question specifically, i'd deal for Dejesus, but not at that price. Doubront is a no-no for what equates to an insurance plan.

[Dojji]

What pieces would you look to deal for Dejesus then? What would you consider a fair price?

[Dipre]

What pieces would you look to deal for Dejesus then? What would you consider a fair price?

 

Richardson and Bowden. They may be enticed by his resume, but he's really fallen off the map.

[Dojji]

That sounds fair. I'd expect Moore not to hang up the phone. Bowden is a tempting player for a small market team because you see the potential if you can straighten him out, and everyone loves power LHRP's.

[Dojji]

Possibly just post-gutpunch wangst talking, but I just don't see this team as constituted making any noise this year. I don't think they're a suck team, but 85-90 wins would probably be the high end of what we should expect.

 

The thing that sucks is I can't figure where to go for a talent infusion. The answer just seems to be the guys we have playing better. Maybe we go after a 3 position OF to fill out our depth a bit more and allow Hall to do the job he was brought in to do and back up the infield, but other than that, it's hard to see a place where we can realistically plug in a few extra wins.

 

The way I see it this is a team that needs to play out the string, shuck some bad contracts, and even some good contracts, load up with picks and strip the team around its new core (Lester, Pedroia, Buchholz, Youkilis, Ellsbury). I don't think we should invest in buying talent unless that talent will be here for at least next year. I don't think we should sign Victor Martinez and I hope we get a Type A pick for him and Beltre. All the old-core players, such as Lowell, Wakefield, Varitek and Ortiz, need to move on or retire. Sometimes it's just time, and it's time.

 

I guess what I'm trying to avoid saying is that I think that it's time for a good, honest step backwards, before we wind up going the way of other big-market monsters that tried to hold on too long. We aren't the Yankees, we don't get the luxury of $400M offseasons, so there's going to be periods of time when the Sox are going to need to reload for a couple years. We can either accept that and do it when we have the pieces to make it a gentle transition, or we can live in denial and go the way of the Giants and Mariners until several truly ugly seasons force the team to bust it up.

[jacksonianmarch]

Dojji, you are gonna have a wave of pretty solid prospects hit the long season leagues over the next 2 yrs from the solid 09 and 10 drafts. So, you should have some solid trade chips come 2011 and 2012. The question is, what do you do? You let guys walk and draft? Well, that's a 3-4 yr minimum on return of investment if you get one at all. Do you trade players? Do you sign guys? The problem is, you gotta commit to that direction, but with the current contracts, the sox kinda cannot commit to a rebuild. It would have to be a reload with what they have, and that typically doesnt happen completely from within

[Dipre]

Lololololololol reactionary posts.

[example1]

Possibly just post-gutpunch wangst talking, but I just don't see this team as constituted making any noise this year. I don't think they're a suck team, but 85-90 wins would probably be the high end of what we should expect.

 

The thing that sucks is I can't figure where to go for a talent infusion. The answer just seems to be the guys we have playing better. Maybe we go after a 3 position OF to fill out our depth a bit more and allow Hall to do the job he was brought in to do and back up the infield, but other than that, it's hard to see a place where we can realistically plug in a few extra wins.

 

The way I see it this is a team that needs to play out the string, shuck some bad contracts, and even some good contracts, load up with picks and strip the team around its new core (Lester, Pedroia, Buchholz, Youkilis, Ellsbury). I don't think we should invest in buying talent unless that talent will be here for at least next year. I don't think we should sign Victor Martinez and I hope we get a Type A pick for him and Beltre. All the old-core players, such as Lowell, Wakefield, Varitek and Ortiz, need to move on or retire. Sometimes it's just time, and it's time.

 

I guess what I'm trying to avoid saying is that I think that it's time for a good, honest step backwards, before we wind up going the way of other big-market monsters that tried to hold on too long. We aren't the Yankees, we don't get the luxury of $400M offseasons, so there's going to be periods of time when the Sox are going to need to reload for a couple years. We can either accept that and do it when we have the pieces to make it a gentle transition, or we can live in denial and go the way of the Giants and Mariners until several truly ugly seasons force the team to bust it up.

 

What about their acquisition of short term guys like Cameron, Beltre, Scutaro, etc., makes you think that they didn't already have this in mind? It seems pretty obvious to me and that their additions actually gave them the chance to be competitive this year while not investing in anybody for too long.

 

Jacko is right. They will have some great young players to offer over the next two years and I expect them to go after some more big young bats with that talent.

[jacksonianmarch]

Didnt you press the panic button?

 

I do agree though, rebuilding isnt an option. You gotta try and win with the bed you have made. Look at the team you will have next yr....

 

Catcher-None, Vtek and VMart are FA's

 

1B- Youkilis

 

2B- Pedroia

 

SS- Scutaro

 

3B- None- Beltre is gonna decline his player option

 

LF- Ellsbury

 

CF- Cameron- under contract for one more yr

 

RF- Drew

 

DH- None, Papi is a FA

 

SP's

1. Lester

2. Beckett

3. Lackey

4. Buchholz

5. DiceK

 

RP

CL- Paps

SU- Bard

MR- Delcarmen

MR- Okajima

 

As you can see, the pitching isnt going to change, maybe another pen arm, but the overall architecture doesnt change. You have to get another catcher, and any addition aside from VMart is an offensive downgrade. Your DH position could be Papi or someone else. Your 3b position is probably going to be a downgrade unless you lock up Beltre long term. Regardless, your team is mostly intact for the next few yrs. Rebuilding isnt an option

[Dipre]

Lol i was being sarcastic.

 

When the f*** have you seen any actual indications of me pressing the panic button?

[a700hitter]

Lol i was being sarcastic.

 

When the f*** have you seen any actual indications of me pressing the panic button?

You don't think we need an OFer?

[Dojji]

Admitting we need an OF is not panicking. It's just recognizing an issue with the roster as it's played out.

 

I wonder how much the Blue Jays would pay us to take Vernon Wells off their hands.

[Dipre]

You don't think we need an OFer?

 

How's that panicking?

 

We also need two relievers. Teams have needs.

[Palodios]

 

Beltre is gonna decline his player option

 

As you can see, the pitching isnt going to change, maybe another pen arm, but the overall architecture doesnt change. You have to get another catcher, and any addition aside from VMart is an offensive downgrade. Your DH position could be Papi or someone else. Your 3b position is probably going to be a downgrade unless you lock up Beltre long term. Regardless, your team is mostly intact for the next few yrs. Rebuilding isnt an option

 

Weren't you the one convincing me that Beltre was going to meet his plate appearances clause and pick up the 10 million dollar option? Vmart will leave, and the team will go with a cheaper alternative in a defensive catcher. Bengie Molina would be great. Use a rotation DH instead of a dedicated DH, and the team has more defensive depth, and could potentially pick up another outfielder ie Werth/Crawford. The rotation has a huge upside, plus Doubront/Kelley will be ready soon enough. Use some of the huge amounts of money coming off the books for a lot of bullpen help, and this team is in great shape.

[example1]

I hit the panic button, pretty uncharacteristically for me actually. They were like a plane in free fall, heading toward the ground and I pulled the parachute to eject. I did that probably a week before I had to, but after a long time of waiting. They were really, really, really bad for awhile there and then lots of things started clicking the right way and other teams fell back to Earth.

 

I still don't think this is the best team in baseball, but they're pretty good.

 

I agree that much of this team is as it will be for the next few years, which is a good thing. I also think that there is reason to believe they can add a substantial bat that will really change the tenor of the team. They're close, but they're not there yet.

[Dojji]

For the record: Benji Molina is a horrible idea. He wasn't that great a defensive catcher in his prime (Good, but not incredible) and he's what, gonna be 36 next year?

 

If you must go for a veteran, bring in Gerald Laird, He sucks this year, but at least he's hit a little in the past, isn't on his last legs, and has an arm. Absolutely do not bring Varitek back as a player, Back Laird up with Dusty Brown, he's got the skillset to be an A. J. Ellis type backup.

[Palodios]

Is he really 36 already? Well, either way, Laird will be a blackhole in the lineup, and really isn't a better choice. My point was, go for a cheap defensive catcher that can hit in the .250s, and I don't have confidence Laird can do that now.

[Dojji]

I don't have the confidence Molina can do that either -- if we're going to have a declining veteran as our backstop I'd rather just keep Tek. The devil you know and all that.

 

Frankly neither Laird nor Molina is a great option. But there aren't really a lot of great options out there right now. the guy I want is Chris Snyder but I'm not sure if the D'Backs are going to make him available.

[Palodios]

Varitek works fine as a part timer, possibly a platoon option. But too much playing time hurt him a lot last year, and he's hit well with lots of time off this year. Plus his defense has never been all that great either. They're going to need someone else to catch around 100 games. But then again, the team has a lot of interesting possibilities in the minors. My expectations for catcher aren't too high, so I would bet the team will be able to fill them.