Boston RedSox 2010 performance/post game reaction thread.

[SCM33]

Obviously there is no way to really compare one team to another, but I have researched what previous RedSox teams have done through 25 games in the season over the past 20 years. Here are the ones that compare:

 

1992, 12-13 through 25 (finished 73-84)

1996, 6-19 through 25 (finished 85-77)

1997, 13-12 through 25 (finished 78-84)

1999, 12-13 through 25 (finished 94-68)

2005, 13-12 through 25 (finished 95-67)

2010, 11-14 through 25 (????????????)

 

Of those teams most comparable, 92 and 97 were both brutal years. In 1996 they won the division winning only 85 games, that will not happen this year, they will need to win 95+ to win the division this season. I think the 1999 team is better than the team we have this season. They were a pretty good offensive club and also had the best pitcher in the game that season (Pedro 23-4, 1.74 ERA, 313 K's). I also think the 2005 team might have been better all around. They were an offensive juggernaut (Manny and Ortiz both hit 45+ homers that year). Obviously their flaw was Starting Pitching, something we came in to this year thinking this was going to be a major plus, and it still probably will.

 

How do you think this team compares to those other teams with similar starts (through 25 games)??

[SCM33]

Uh Oh

 

“Everyone thought Baltimore was three easy wins and we got our ass kicked three times,” Pedroia seethed. “We’re going to have to play a lot better, especially against those teams. And soon.”

 

As Epstein paced in the empty manager’s office after the game, he was asked if the team will be able to fix itself.

 

“Things haven’t really changed,” he said. “We talked about this last week. We’re still playing bad baseball. Unintelligent, undisciplined, uninspired baseball. It’s got to change.

 

“It either changes itself or we have to do something to change it.”

 

A clear divide is opening between the veterans of the team’s World Series and playoff runs and the new players who were acquired to bolster the club this winter. Marco Scutaro seems like the only truly assimilated player of the bunch. It’s not hard to read between the lines.

 

The Red Sox are a dysfunctional mess. Victor Martinez can’t hit to save his life. Beltre keeps making poor plays defensively and has become a free-swinging singles hitter. Mike Lowell is struggling to find a groove while playing sporadically. Jacoby Ellsbury [stats]’s injury and absence have killed them.

[example1]

I wouldn't expect any other response. I don't know about a divide between old and new, as I'm not in the clubhouse. I can see frustration with Beltre, and Cameron not being around (and making that one key error) doesn't help. Meanwhile the "guys who have been around awhile" still include people like Lowell, Ortiz, Beckett, Lester and Drew, who all have had relatively slow starts.

 

I'm not going to rush to judgment about the new guys being responsible for the losses. I observe that this team has a lack of cohesion that--as Theo says--clearly cannot remain the way it is. It either changes itself or it will be changed. Cameron, Scutaro, Lackey and Beltre are all veterans who have played on numerous teams without reputation for being s***** clubhouse guys.

 

Meanwhile, Ortiz and Lowell are trying to share a spot in the lineup, the vaunted pitching staff hasn't performed, the catchers can't keep singles from turning into doubles, the bullpen can't hold a lead, and there are injuries to key players like Ellsbury and Cameron. The intent was for this team to gel with a foundation of a solid team and a competent pitching staff. Instead the gelling needs to happen while the team is struggling and filled with guys like Darnell McDonald and JVE. It's like the end of 2006 in April.

[Lester82]

And Papelbon continues to be more prone to blowing it. I know he couldn't keep up his personal prime forever, but he's fustrating. Far from this team's biggest issue, though.

[yeszir]

It's not the old guys' fault. Its not the new guys' fault. It's everyone fault. Everyone needs to play better. Much better.

 

And I have a feeling that this thread is going to be the opposite of the "uplifting" thread.

[BSN07]

Pujols hasn't signed an extension yet...(j/k)

[jacksonianmarch]

Hey y'all. Jet lagged like crazy, currently 3am where I am.

 

For the sox, we all saw the 7-2 run and every game was a massive struggle with some serious level of luck factor. Some people were heartened by the wins saying that a good team pulls out games that they shouldnt technically win. Others were a bit more realistic and saw that that run masked a bigger issue. Namely, no part of the sox team is playing well.

 

First of all, I have never really been a proponent of the locker room cohesion theory. But having some of your stars from yesteryear sitting for new guys who arent producing could be a problem. Lowell forced from 3b to a platoon DH role. Papi forced from full time DH to platoon. Vtek pulled from the starters ranks. While they might be pissed or they might not be, you lose that level of leadership on the field. Getting together and singing kumbaya in the lockerroom is not necessary. Having leaders on the field capable of keeping their cool in key spots, buying into the team philosophy, and getting big hits is a big part of a well led team. The sox dont have that right now.

 

The offense is hit or miss, and seems to be keeping up with the same problem from last season. You hit average to bad pitchers well, but cannot hit above average to good pitchers at all. Even as some players start to heat up, that trend continues. The Brad Bergeson's and Dana Eveland's of the world face your wrath, but the Millwood's and even the Brett Cecil's skate by with minimal problems

 

The SP is starting to come around. Beckett and Lester threw solid outings and Lackey fought through a tough outing to minimize damage. DiceK was miserable. That being said, you got 2 losses out of a 7IP 3ER performance and a 7IP 2ER performance. That is not acceptable to a team like the O's.

 

And now the pen is starting to lose its cool now that the SP are starting to work their way into the season.

 

And now, 7 games back of the Rays and 6 back of the Yankees in the L column and heading into one of the most difficult stretches of the season, the sox find themselves in a precarious position. Start winning, or be turned from buyers into sellers at the break.

 

From a Yankee fan perspective, I must say that this is the most disjointed sox team I have seen since Tek went down with a bum knee in 2006. Theo has his work cut out for him, cause TB and NYY are not letting up

[TheMino007]

what the hell is with all these stupid reaction/evaluation threads?

[JimEdHOF2009]

“We talked about this a lot at the end of the year, that we’re kind of in a bridge period,’’ he said. “We still think that if we push some of the right buttons, we can be competitive at the very highest levels for the next two years. But we don’t want to compromise too much of the future for that competitiveness during the bridge period, but we all don’t want to sacrifice our competitiveness during the bridge just for the future. So we’re just trying to balance both those issues.’’--Theo Epstein (Spring Training 2010)

[ORS]

That's interesting. I think you should post it in every thread.

[JimEdHOF2009]

That's interesting. I think you should post it in every thread.

 

I sense your sarcasm clever one..... did you sense mine?

 

So..I agree. instead of wasting bandwidth with pointless pontification and useless hypotheticals...just look at what the guy who RUNS the Red Sox said BEFORE the season even started. He was foreshadowing the GREAT possibility of failure while also nixing the Adrian Gonzalez idea.. Quite a masterful stroke by Theo. Now he can say..hey.."I told you we were in a bridge year".

[ORS]

Yeah, he did, and you are the dunce that is just figuring it out in May. Congrats.

[jacksonianmarch]

ORS, that is interesting that you are taking the bridge theory up so early, but then again, you typically are a bit ahead of the curve.

 

Do you think the pitching and defense mantra was just a smokescreen? And, if this is a bridge, what big name will they be adding by 2012, in your opinion, that snaps them out of the bridge realm?

[JimEdHOF2009]

Theo went for the bat when he went for Tex... he missed on that...and short of a trade, there is nobody out there close to Tex. I cannot blame the Sox..they made a MONSTROUS offer for Tex only to be trumped by that fat sack of goo... I think Theo went to the "pitching/defense" as an alternative to the slugger because the Yankees signing him necessitated the shift. I believe it is more important to Theo to stock the farm. He knows he cannot outspend the Yankees and can only fight them internally. I respect this stance. I do not respect the fact that he uses this "pitching and defense" sham to fool novice fans into thinking he is actually putting his best foot forth in an effort to win. Theo's mistakes have come back to bite him and he needs a couple of years for them to clear and in the meantime he will hold fast and not trade the young gems so that in 2 years, when other players become available through FA he can not only sign them...but also have the Kelly/Anderson/Bard/Clay/Ellsbury's playing with other prospects available to deal when Theo thinks we have a realistic chance at competing.

 

I understand what he is doing and somewhat agree with him.. But it is HIS fault for having to WASTE entire SEASONS.. had he done an effective job..he should have been able to compete EVERY year while still stocking the system.. He has $150 millions at his disposal!!!! He has mis-allocated the funds and caused Red Sox fans to WASTE 2 seasons watching a bunch of overpaid, old, bums flounder around the .500 mark. I have said it before....were Theo the GM of the KC Royals..he would have been fired long ago.

[riverside sluggers]

As much as this season hasnt been the best... the man still brought us 2 red sox championships in the past 6 years. I bet KC would love to get him on board

[Dojji]

 

I understand what he is doing and somewhat agree with him.. But it is HIS fault for having to WASTE entire SEASONS.. had he done an effective job..he should have been able to compete EVERY year while still stocking the system.. He has $150 millions at his disposal!!!! He has mis-allocated the funds and caused Red Sox fans to WASTE 2 seasons watching a bunch of overpaid, old, bums flounder around the .500 mark. I have said it before....were Theo the GM of the KC Royals..he would have been fired long ago.

 

This is unrealistic. Every playoff run reaches a point where the key players just get too old. If you want to watch misallocated resources at work, watch the Cubs. This year is more about paying the piper for winning in 2007.

[ORS]

ORS, that is interesting that you are taking the bridge theory up so early, but then again, you typically are a bit ahead of the curve.

 

Do you think the pitching and defense mantra was just a smokescreen? And, if this is a bridge, what big name will they be adding by 2012, in your opinion, that snaps them out of the bridge realm?

No, I don't think it was a smokescreen. I think the current roster can find some success, but things need to go right for it to happen, and thus far it hasn't. Over the course of a season, the roster they planned to take the field with, when healthy, is a good defensive team, despite the deficiencies at catcher. The pitchers they have slotted for the starting rotation are good pitchers. It can work, and it still may. I think they went into the season legitimately thinking the team could compete.

 

I also think the "bridge" comments are there because they recognize that there is less margin for pieces not working out and being covered by other parts of the plan. There's not much contingency in this roster. If the pitching or defense, or hell both which is what happened when the year started, don't play up to expectation, then the other parts of the team - the bullpen, the offense, etc. - aren't going to be able to cover for a deficiency.

 

As far as where the bridge leads to, I can only guess. There's a lot of time between now and then and a lot of baseball to be played to firm up what decisions could/should be made. They'll know more about what they have in the likes of Reddick, Kalish, Anderson, Wagner, Exposito, Middlebrooks, etc. to fill some of the spots that will open. Fielder and Gonzalez are free agents in the 2011 offseason. Werth is an interesting option in the 2010 offseason.

 

The signing of Lackey, actually makes some sense, albeit with some risk. When they signed him and extended Beckett, they've, barring injury, kind of nailed down their rotation through 2012 (Dice is the first to have an expired contract/control after 2012 - Lester, Lackey, Beckett, and Buchholz are all under contract/control through 2014 if you include options). They don't need to focus there. That doesn't mean that everything will work out perfectly and they won't have to address something, but it won't be an area of focus. They can put their focus on improving other parts of the club.

[SCM33]

what the hell is with all these stupid reaction/evaluation threads?

 

Ahhhh, trying to create some new threads to generate some conversation without littering the board with pointless kee jerk reactions like 2/3 of the board, and it appears to be working.

 

If its so stupid, dont post. Your insult is exactly what I wanted to avoid, you know the crap that litters the board.

[yankees228]

Obviously there is no way to really compare one team to another, but I have researched what previous RedSox teams have done through 25 games in the season over the past 20 years. Here are the ones that compare:

 

1992, 12-13 through 25 (finished 73-84)

1996, 6-19 through 25 (finished 85-77)

1997, 13-12 through 25 (finished 78-84)

1999, 12-13 through 25 (finished 94-68)

2005, 13-12 through 25 (finished 95-67)

2010, 11-14 through 25 (????????????)

 

Of those teams most comparable, 92 and 97 were both brutal years. In 1996 they won the division winning only 85 games, that will not happen this year, they will need to win 95+ to win the division this season. I think the 1999 team is better than the team we have this season. They were a pretty good offensive club and also had the best pitcher in the game that season (Pedro 23-4, 1.74 ERA, 313 K's). I also think the 2005 team might have been better all around. They were an offensive juggernaut (Manny and Ortiz both hit 45+ homers that year). Obviously their flaw was Starting Pitching, something we came in to this year thinking this was going to be a major plus, and it still probably will.

 

How do you think this team compares to those other teams with similar starts (through 25 games)??

 

One quick point. They finished third in 1996. In 1995 they won the division with 86 wins, but it was in a shortened season.

[JimEdHOF2009]

As much as this season hasnt been the best... the man still brought us 2 red sox championships in the past 6 years. I bet KC would love to get him on board

 

Really? Well how so? I mean..you do realize Theo would go from $150 million to about $58 million?? His Lugo blunder would have been roughly 20% of the Royals payroll... so your point clearly holds no water whatsoever. He has been able to screw up constantly and still be successful because of the insane resources he has at his disposal.

[jacksonianmarch]

No, I don't think it was a smokescreen. I think the current roster can find some success, but things need to go right for it to happen, and thus far it hasn't. Over the course of a season, the roster they planned to take the field with, when healthy, is a good defensive team, despite the deficiencies at catcher. The pitchers they have slotted for the starting rotation are good pitchers. It can work, and it still may. I think they went into the season legitimately thinking the team could compete.

 

I also think the "bridge" comments are there because they recognize that there is less margin for pieces not working out and being covered by other parts of the plan. There's not much contingency in this roster. If the pitching or defense, or hell both which is what happened when the year started, don't play up to expectation, then the other parts of the team - the bullpen, the offense, etc. - aren't going to be able to cover for a deficiency.

 

As far as where the bridge leads to, I can only guess. There's a lot of time between now and then and a lot of baseball to be played to firm up what decisions could/should be made. They'll know more about what they have in the likes of Reddick, Kalish, Anderson, Wagner, Exposito, Middlebrooks, etc. to fill some of the spots that will open. Fielder and Gonzalez are free agents in the 2011 offseason. Werth is an interesting option in the 2010 offseason.

 

The signing of Lackey, actually makes some sense, albeit with some risk. When they signed him and extended Beckett, they've, barring injury, kind of nailed down their rotation through 2012 (Dice is the first to have an expired contract/control after 2012 - Lester, Lackey, Beckett, and Buchholz are all under contract/control through 2014 if you include options). They don't need to focus there. That doesn't mean that everything will work out perfectly and they won't have to address something, but it won't be an area of focus. They can put their focus on improving other parts of the club.

 

Well thought out, good post

[TheMino007]

What exactly are we bridging to and how many years will that take? What do we have to look foward to, Casey Kelley? How the hell are we going to fit him into the rotation? Lars Anderson? Dud. Igelsias? Exposito? I means its not like we have any Heywards or Stantons in our farm system. I do realize that every team does get old and dynasty's have to end and be re-built (except for the Yankees who have an unfair advantage that hurts competitive balance by being able buy World Series buy signing whoever they want) but for 150 million, this team should be performing way better and should make the playoffs. Ellsbury and Cameron still need a couple weeks to recover, so its not gonna get any better unless a move is made. Or fire Francona and that useless f*** Farrel. Their time is up if they can't turn this great pitching and defensive team around. 3 worst ERA in baseball, 2nd in baseball in errors committed. Its pathetic. We have great names with great past track records in the pitching department, so the coaching staff is to blame.

[jacksonianmarch]

IF the sox ERA stays this high and IF the errors do continue to mount, I wouldnt be surprised if Farrell gets the axed. I also wouldnt be surprised if Theo fires one of Francona's other coaches to remind him that this is unacceptable

[rhet]

IF the sox ERA stays this high and IF the errors do continue to mount' date=' I wouldnt be surprised if Farrell gets the axed. I also wouldnt be surprised if Theo fires one of Francona's other coaches to remind him that this is unacceptable[/quote']

 

Who does Theo fire for signing a 37 year old starting center fielder?

[jacksonianmarch]

Well, Henry isnt firing Theo, I will tell you that much

[rhet]

He loves him like a son.

[Spudboy]

The Sox can still win 95 games if they win 61% of their 137 remaining games.

 

Of course it appears that they will win closer to my projected 84-90 games if they can right the ship.

 

I think that the talk of firing Francona and Farrell is premature.

[Palodios]

Who does Theo fire for signing a 37 year old starting center fielder?

 

I don't see the lapse in judgement of signing a player who has been pretty healthy for quite a few years. Its not like he got hurt from a pre-existing condition, kidney stones happen.

 

He was the best outfielder available at the time that didn't cost a 4+ year, 65 mill+ contract. The other options were Jermaine Dye who can't field, Nady who took most of last year off, Marlon Byrd who wanted a longer contract and was mostly unproven, and Damon/Crisp and the list only gets worse. Yeah, I wanted Holliday, but they chose Lackey instead.

[Palodios]

Not that I think he's been a great manager-- most of his deals lately not gone well, I just think its too early to call him out for this past offseason.

[yankees228]

What exactly are we bridging to and how many years will that take? What do we have to look foward to' date=' Casey Kelley? How the hell are we going to fit him into the rotation? Lars Anderson? Dud. Igelsias? Exposito? I means its not like we have any Heywards or Stantons in our farm system. I do realize that every team does get old and dynasty's have to end and be re-built (except for the Yankees who have an unfair advantage that hurts competitive balance by being able buy World Series buy signing whoever they want) but for 150 million, this team should be performing way better and should make the playoffs. Ellsbury and Cameron still need a couple weeks to recover, so its not gonna get any better unless a move is made. Or fire Francona and that useless f*** Farrel. Their time is up if they can't turn this great pitching and defensive team around. 3 worst ERA in baseball, 2nd in baseball in errors committed. Its pathetic. We have great names with great past track records in the pitching department, so the coaching staff is to blame.[/quote']

 

Ugh, try as I might, I just can't help it.

 

I really enjoyed the parades in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, and 2008. Great times.