Why Beltre Will Only Cost $2 Million....

[Spudboy]

I thought for a second you meant he should slow down...

 

 

now I get it.

 

Say it again....

 

It ain't nothin' but the undertaker....

[Red Foreman]

So he wont cost too much' date=' but he sucks. He did OPS under .700 last yr.[/quote']

 

Yesterday it was a hope and pray trade and now he just plain sucks?

[jacksonianmarch]

I was playing Imperial's game of what have you done for me lately.

[Imperial59]

I was playing Imperial's game of what have you done for me lately.

 

Alright Jacko, what Yankees player have I done that with recently that hurt your feelings so much? Why don't you get it over with and just tell us so you can stop hijacking the thread.

[Dipre]

I was playing Imperial's game of what have you done for me lately.

 

Interesting thing to note:

 

You get pissed when i call you a troll, and say i'm playing the "victim" card, however, this post is an admission of trolling.

[Emmz]

Hey guys, chill out. Jacko's not trolling. It's just Jacko being Jacko.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Interesting thing to note:

 

You get pissed when i call you a troll, and say i'm playing the "victim" card, however, this post is an admission of trolling.

Your inbox. Clear it.

[Dipre]

Your inbox. Clear it.

 

'Tis done.

[SoxFan1970]

Your right Beltre and Cameron "HAD" those stats last year. Lets look forward to this year and beyond. Alot of people had a bad 2009 in sports and in general, doesn't mean 2010 is going to be the same.

With that line of thinking we shouldn't even get up tomorrow morning.

 

This is a solid team, Only teams on paper that can match up are the Yankees and Phillies. So what's the problem, they don't play the game on paper.

[Keeper]

Well' date=' let's be honest. WAR, what is it good for? Absolutely nothing.[/quote']

 

Nice.

 

Interesting thing to note:

 

You get pissed when i call you a troll, and say i'm playing the "victim" card, however, this post is an admission of trolling.

 

Wouldn't call it trolling. I'd say he was giving Imperial a taste of his own medicine. Imperial is an intelligent fan and has made sound arguments, but he's been grilling Jacko and other Yankee fans for a lot of stupid s***. Some of it may have been merited, but I think he went overboard.

[Dipre]

Wouldn't call it trolling. I'd say he was giving Imperial a taste of his own medicine. Imperial is an intelligent fan and has made sound arguments' date=' but he's been grilling Jacko and other Yankee fans for a lot of stupid s***. Some of it may have been merited, but I think he went overboard.[/quote']

 

You mean doing to Jacko exactly what Jacko's been doing (first as the Rivernator)on this site since its inception? And isn't that the textbook definition of trolling?

 

Besides, isn't this a Red Sox discussion board for Red Sox fans? A Red Sox fan pulls this s*** on a Yankee board and he's banned within seconds. Just sayin'.

[ORS]

58 OPS+ last year. With a -0.3 WAR. :thumbdown

Aren't you the sample size guru? I would have thought career numbers would be a bit more meaningful.

 

Looks like you've grown out of the binky (when it suits your purposes). You're all groweds up and you're all groweds up and you're all groweds up.

[Plumpamania]

Jackson, I'm still waiting for a response to my initial question. If you can't provide me with a sound arguement, I'll be forced to skip your posts in the future.

[rician blast]

You are removing Bay who had a .921OPS and a .384OBP.

You are removing Lowell who had an .811OPS and a .337OBP.

You add a player in Beltre who had a .683OPS and a .304OBP.

You add a player in Cameron who had a .794OPS and a .342OBP.

 

You can make all the excuses you want to, but both of these guys are massive downgrades. Beltre, when healthy, is good for a .780-.800OPS and a .320OBP.

 

The sox offense was built upon being difficult outs. But you subtract two guys from the middle of your order who worked counts and add two guys who arent tough outs. This offense became less dangerous and is being sold to the pink hats as a defensive upgrade.

 

There are some solid points above.

 

The Sox essentially shifted $ to starting pitching (Lackey), hopefully improving their 'D' but with a willingness to take a hit offensively. It appears to me that the Red Sox FO identified a payroll level that they could live with, took into account the benefit of not signing position players to LT contracts (Bay, Holliday, etc) and added a very good starting pitcher ...all in hopes of competing this year while not totally breaking the bank or mortgaging the future.

 

I realize it is difficult for most Yankee fans to understand this philosophy so I can't really jump all over Jacko for his comments...they're simply the product of being a fan of an organization that operates under an entirely different philosophy than the Red Sox...and any other MLB team for that matter.

[Dipre]

All Yankee bench players are better than that scum. Wanna know a good bench player in the Sox? Scutaro' date=' oh wait! He's your starting SS.[/quote']

 

There are some solid points above.

 

The Sox essentially shifted $ to starting pitching (Lackey), hopefully improving their 'D' but with a willingness to take a hit offensively. It appears to me that the Red Sox FO identified a payroll level that they could live with, took into account the benefit of not signing position players to LT contracts (Bay, Holliday, etc) and added a very good starting pitcher ...all in hopes of competing this year while not totally breaking the bank or mortgaging the future.

 

I realize it is difficult for most Yankee fans to understand this philosophy so I can't really jump all over Jacko for his comments...they're simply the product of being a fan of an organization that operates under an entirely different philosophy than the Red Sox...and any other MLB team for that matter.

 

Yeah, but the whole "this is being sold to the pink hats as a defensive upgrade" line is a bit ignorant.

 

Last year's team was among the worst defensive teams in recent history according to most defensive metrics and "Watching the gamezzzz" also, if you read above you'll notice him saying he's just "playing Imperial's game".

 

The shift in philosophy is not something that is "Being sold to the pink hats" it's a legitimate Modus Operandi that's just as legitimate as scoring runs by the boatload, and in fact, it's a better model once the playoffs come in. It's usually the mark of a championship team.

[rician blast]

Jacko's decent points I referred to are the stats...in other words yeah, you could use them to draw the conclusion that the Sox 'O' is not as potent.

 

My point though is that the moves made this offseason illustrate the FO's willingness to take an offensive hit (potentially) in exchange for 'D' and pitching...as you've said, pitching wins titles.

 

The greater issue is that Yankee fans don't understand the concept of compromise or trade-offs in that the Yankees have the resources to go after the best of EVERYTHING, as opposed to other organizations that may have to sacrifice one aspect of the team to improve upon another and stay within a fiscal framework that is consistent with ownership's resources and/or goals.

[Dipre]

Jacko's decent points I referred to are the stats...in other words yeah, you could use them to draw the conclusion that the Sox 'O' is not as potent.

 

My point though is that the moves made this offseason illustrate the FO's willingness to take an offensive hit (potentially) in exchange for 'D' and pitching...as you've said, pitching wins titles.

 

The greater issue is that Yankee fans don't understand the concept of compromise or trade-offs in that the Yankees have the resources to go after the best of EVERYTHING, as opposed to other organizations that may have to sacrifice one aspect of the team to improve upon another and stay within a fiscal framework that is consistent with ownership's resources and/or goals.

 

That paragraph sums up everything there is to say about the subject. Fantastic post.

[rhet]

Last year's team was among the worst defensive teams in recent history according to most defensive metrics

 

Out of curiousity, what metrics are you referring to?

[Dipre]

Out of curiousity' date=' what metrics are you referring to?[/quote']

 

UZR, UZR/150, RF/G.

 

I'll post them player by player if you want me to.

[rhet]

UZR, UZR/150, RF/G.

 

I'll post them player by player if you want me to.

 

I could be wrong, but I thought I saw team fielding stats that put the Sox in the middle somewhere. Just ahead of the Yankees.

[rhet]

Here it is. Ranked by team UZR.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/teams.aspx?pos=all&stats=fld&lg=all&type=0&season=2009&month=0

 

Sox in the middle, ahead of the Yankees.

Seattle #1 by a wide margin. Rays #2. Reds #3. (All three didn't make the playoffs.)

[Dipre]

I could be wrong' date=' but I thought I saw team fielding stats that put the Sox in the middle somewhere. Just ahead of the Yankees.[/quote']

 

Probably using fielding percentage or something.

 

But position by position, the Red Sox consistently had at least three weak links on defense, sometimes four.

 

Catcher was an obvious liability, don't need stats for this one.

 

Jason Bay was awful in left.

 

"Defensive player of the year" Jacoby Ellsbury wasn't very good in CF, advanced metrics support this and so does his move to LF.

 

At 3B, Lowell was a statue, but when they played Martinez at 1B and Youk at 3B, you had a below-average 1B and an around-average 3B playing together.

 

Then there were a bunch of starts by Julio Lugo and Chris Woodward who were both absolutely awful defensively. Nick Green looked deceptively good, but he started wearing down defensively towards the time Gonzales was acquired, helping maintain a positive UZR on what would amount to a SSS.

[Dipre]

Here it is. Ranked by team UZR.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/teams.aspx?pos=all&stats=fld&lg=all&type=0&season=2009&month=0

 

Sox in the middle, ahead of the Yankees.

Seattle #1 by a wide margin. Rays #2. Reds #3. (All three didn't make the playoffs.)

 

And that's why i tried to break it down by position. Your hated JD Drew, Kevin Youkilis' time at first , Alex Gonzales and Dustin Pedroia all helped the overall ranking tremendously, but breaking it down by position, (specially the middle line except for Pedroia) the Sox weren't very good even after Alex Gonzales was re-acquired.

 

About the fact that the "top three teams didn't make the playoffs" Seattle could pitch, but not hit, the Reds can't pitch, and the Rays didn't have a bullpen.

 

I'm sorry you don't like this team if the lineup can't bash like the Yankees, but superior pitching and defense make this an overall better squad than 2009.

[rhet]

And that's why i tried to break it down by position. Your hated JD Drew, Kevin Youkilis' time at first , Alex Gonzales and Dustin Pedroia all helped the overall ranking tremendously, but breaking it down by position, (specially the middle line except for Pedroia) the Sox weren't very good even after Alex Gonzales was re-acquired.

 

About the fact that the "top three teams didn't make the playoffs" Seattle could pitch, but not hit, the Reds can't pitch, and the Rays didn't have a bullpen.

 

I'm sorry you don't like this team if the lineup can't bash like the Yankees, but superior pitching and defense make this an overall better squad than 2009.

 

So, in essence, you admit you were wrong. Fangraphs clearly shows the Sox team UZR in the lower middle, ahead of the Yankees. It also shows that none the top seven fielding teams even made the playoffs.

[Dipre]

So' date=' in essence, you admit you were wrong. Fangraphs clearly shows the Sox team UZR in the lower middle, ahead of the Yankees. It also shows that [b']none[/b] the top seven fielding teams even made the playoffs.

 

No.

 

In essence, i admit to actually checking out the stats position-by-position.

 

You're trying to use UZR as a counter-argument, but you obviously don't know why simply using the cumulative numbers doesn't work for the argument, because the Red Sox had top eight players at several key positions (1B, RF, 2B ) and UZR doesn't account for catcher, which was an obvious position of weakness for the Red Sox last season, but i'll assume you already knew this, and know how UZR works:

 

Postion-by-position breakdown:

 

P: 29 out of 30.

 

1B: 2 out of 30.

 

2B: 7 out of 30

 

SS: 12 out of 30 (Thank you Alex Gonzales)

 

3B: 29 out of 30.

 

RF: 8 out of 30

 

CF: 30 out of 30

 

LF: 25 out of 30.

 

If you'll notice, the team consistently had three awful defenders at any given time, excluding the catcher, one of the team's biggest weaknesses, which UZR doesn't address (i'll assume you knew this) but were carried by excellence at 1B, RF and 2B.

 

You need to know the importance of position-by-position breakdown instead of using the cumulative number for a formula you probably know very little about.

 

Oh and about the top seven teams not making the playoffs? Number one, it's a lie, because the Rockies made the playoffs. Number two, the other six were flawed teams that either had no pitching, no hitting, or both (in the Royal's case).

 

You're a smart guy, you can make a better argument than this one.

[example1]

I've seen this video linked on other sites but not here.

 

I imagine it will be yanked from youtube soon, but it is called Adrian Bertle's fielding, so maybe it will stay available. In any case, wow:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8IKDeH9SEg

 

His release and arm are outstanding and he has good quickness too. Notice some of the plays he makes halfway down the LF line. Amazing stuff. Defensively his upgrade from Lowell--even if Beltre regresses--will be substantial.

 

EDIT: Notice the way that he positions his body on his barehand plays, for example the one with Orlando Cabrera bouncing the ball off the plate. He catches it as if it is in the midst of his throwing motion. The only way that play can be made.

[rhet]

No.

 

In essence, i admit to actually checking out the stats position-by-position.

 

You're trying to use UZR as a counter-argument, but you obviously don't know why simply using the cumulative numbers doesn't work for the argument, because the Red Sox had top eight players at several key positions (1B, RF, 2B ) and UZR doesn't account for catcher, which was an obvious position of weakness for the Red Sox last season, but i'll assume you already knew this, and know how UZR works:

 

Postion-by-position breakdown:

 

P: 29 out of 30.

 

1B: 2 out of 30.

 

2B: 7 out of 30

 

SS: 12 out of 30 (Thank you Alex Gonzales)

 

3B: 29 out of 30.

 

RF: 8 out of 30

 

CF: 30 out of 30

 

LF: 25 out of 30.

 

If you'll notice, the team consistently had three awful defenders at any given time, excluding the catcher, one of the team's biggest weaknesses, which UZR doesn't address (i'll assume you knew this) but were carried by excellence at 1B, RF and 2B.

 

You need to know the importance of position-by-position breakdown instead of using the cumulative number for a formula you probably know very little about.

 

Oh and about the top seven teams not making the playoffs? Number one, it's a lie, because the Rockies made the playoffs. Number two, the other six were flawed teams that either had no pitching, no hitting, or both (in the Royal's case).

 

You're a smart guy, you can make a better argument than this one.

 

If you want to talk about players, that's one set of stats. If you want to talk about the team fielding stats, that's another.

 

I didn't invent the Fangraph's team UZR ranking. Nor did I opine on its validity. I just pointed out the the seven best fielding teams in baseball last year, according to Fangraphs, didn't make the playoffs. And, according to Fangraphs, the Red Sox were in the middle (but ahead of the world champs).

 

Make of that what you will.

[Dipre]

If you want to talk about players, that's one set of stats. If you want to talk about the team fielding stats, that's another.

 

I didn't invent the Fangraph's team UZR ranking. Nor did I opine on its validity. I just pointed out the the seven best fielding teams in baseball last year, according to Fangraphs, didn't make the playoffs. And, according to Fangraphs, the Red Sox were in the middle (but ahead of the world champs).

 

Make of that what you will.

 

I simply don't put stock into team fielding stats regarding UZR, because UZR is a cumulative stat, therefore, some players' excellence can make up for other player's deficiencies on a statistical basis, but this cannot be applied to actual game situations, i'll admit to not even having checked the overall team rankings, because team rankings by measure of UZR simply won't work.

 

Example:

 

Player A had a 8.0 UZR at LF.

 

Player B had a -7.2 UZR at 3B.

 

For "Overall" UZR rankings, they had a 0.8 UZR, which discounts the negative impact player B had on his team defensive-wise. And the very nature of the stat compares players to other players in their position, therefore, that's the way it's supposed to be used for comparative purposes.

 

Also, you're obviously trying to make a point, you used a statistic incorrectly because of lack of knowledge to the nature of the stat, and you're also wrong on your "top seven teams" assessment, because none of those has either a pitching staff or an offense like the Red Sox.

 

Try again.

[Dipre]

I've seen this video linked on other sites but not here.

 

I imagine it will be yanked from youtube soon, but it is called Adrian Bertle's fielding, so maybe it will stay available. In any case, wow:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8IKDeH9SEg

 

His release and arm are outstanding and he has good quickness too. Notice some of the plays he makes halfway down the LF line. Amazing stuff. Defensively his upgrade from Lowell--even if Beltre regresses--will be substantial.

 

EDIT: Notice the way that he positions his body on his barehand plays, for example the one with Orlando Cabrera bouncing the ball off the plate. He catches it as if it is in the midst of his throwing motion. The only way that play can be made.

 

5:22-5:28

 

"Like a cat, like a Puma, like a Leopard, watch him leap on this ball!!!"

 

LOL.

[rhet]

My point was, and I repeat, you were wrong about the Red Sox defense last year. Although it wasn't very good, you exaggerated how bad it was. I supported my position with Fangraphs team fielding stats, which default to ranking by team UZR. Fangraphs ranks the Sox in the lower middle, ahead of the Yankees.

 

I also point out the obvious statistical disconnect between Fangraphs's good fielding teams and championship teams, as the top seven ranked fielding teams did not even make the playoffs. However, I did not share a conclusion here as to why i believe that is.