Yankees deal for Vazquez

[Imperial59]

4 guys in the rotation have gotten in the 190+ IP range for 2 seasons in a row. How durable is Boston's rotation again?

 

Lester's pitched 200 innings the last two years. Beckett's pitched 200 innings 3 of the last 4 years. Lackey can usually be counted on for 200 innings. I wouldn't say it's super durable, but the average age of our rotation is more than 3 years younger than yours. And you guys are the ones counting on AJ Burnett and a 38 year old Andy Petitte as your #2 and #3 starter.

[jacksonianmarch]

Lackey hasnt reached 200 innings since 2007, but I would consider him pretty durable.

[Imperial59]

How many times had he gone 2 seasons in a row without getting hurt. Maybe' date=' just maybe, he's turned the corner.[/quote']

 

Maybe. But don't act like a "maybe, just maybe" is a a durable starter who can be counted on for 200 innings. Let's be real here.

[Imperial59]

Lackey hasnt reached 200 innings since 2007' date=' but I would consider him pretty durable.[/quote']

 

Yeah, given his track record over his career I would agree.

[jacksonianmarch]

he's done it two yrs in a row. And without a hint of injury. I honestly think that his elbow was his biggest downfall, and now that the scar tissue is broken up, it isnt an issue

[Imperial59]

he's done it two yrs in a row. And without a hint of injury. I honestly think that his elbow was his biggest downfall' date=' and now that the scar tissue is broken up, it isnt an issue[/quote']

 

We shall see... hard to take it seriously when you claim he's durable though given his injury history. Since 2000, he's made 9 trips to the DL and not all of them were related to his TJ surgery.

[Dipre]

he's done it two yrs in a row. And without a hint of injury. I honestly think that his elbow was his biggest downfall' date=' and now that the scar tissue is broken up, it isnt an issue[/quote']

 

He's been on the DL 10 times in 11 years. Were all of them elbow related?

[Imperial59]

He's been on the DL 10 times in 11 years. Were all of them elbow related?

 

2000 - Torn thumb ligament

2001 - Stress fracture in right foot

2002 - Bone bruise

2007 - Shoulder strain

 

There goes that excuse... lol

[Dipre]

2000 - Torn thumb ligament

2001 - Stress fracture in right foot

2002 - Bone bruise

2007 - Shoulder strain

 

There goes that excuse... lol

 

Damn you!

 

I had it copied and ready for a paste just in case.

[Imperial59]

Damn you!

 

I had it copied and ready for a paste just in case.

 

Sorry, lol

 

You do know he'll just move on to another claim now that he was proven wrong about this one though, right? Maybe he'll claim Jesus Montero is better than Victor Martinez using a minor league WAR calculation that he made up. Maybe he'll claim that Chamberlain is better than Lackey because of his stuff. That's the fun of this site. You never know what Jackson will come up with next lol

[Imperial59]

Javier Vasquez career AL/NL peripherals:

 

 

WHIP H/9 BB/9 K/9 SO/BB HR/9 ERA+

 

AL 1.258 8.9 2.5 8.1 3.58 1.2 102

 

NL 1.238 8.9 2.3 8.1 3.29 1.1 110

 

I bet those would be a lot different if you took out his first 2 years with Montreal when he was horrible.

[Dipre]

I bet those would be a lot different if you took out his first 2 years with Montreal when he was horrible.

 

Interestingly enough, like you mentioned in the Vasquez discussion you guys were having, he has exactly a 0.20 advantage in WHIP in the NL over the AL.

 

Javier Vasquez career stats.

[rhet]

No matter how this deal works out, we'll always have the 2nd inning slam to remember. Look up 'awesome feeling' in the dictionary and see the trajectory on that shot. :D:D

[Imperial59]

For the record, Tim Wakefield has a better ERA+ in the American League than Javier Vazquez, and he's our #6 starter. I'm sure Jacko will claim that Wake's peripherals aren't as good as Vazquez, but even the best knuckleball pitchers don't' have good peripherals so that doesn't really mean anything.

[jacksonianmarch]

ERA is not the best way to evaluate a pitcher. How many times need we say this?

[Dipre]

ERA is not the best way to evaluate a pitcher. How many times need we say this?

 

We understand that, but it helps to establish the fact that you claim the Yanks rotation to be deeper and more effective, yet the Sox #6 starter has a better league-adjusted ERA than the Yanks' #4, as i'm very certain you would inform us of if it was the Yankees' case.

[ORS]

For the record' date=' Tim Wakefield has a better ERA+ in the American League than Javier Vazquez, and he's our #6 starter. I'm sure Jacko will claim that Wake's peripherals aren't as good as Vazquez, but even the best knuckleball pitchers don't' have good peripherals so that doesn't really mean anything.[/quote']

That and most of the modern pitching analytical stats are incapable of accounting for the effectivness of a knuckleball pitcher. They don't fit the mold.

[ORS]

No matter how this deal works out' date=' we'll always have the 2nd inning slam to remember. Look up 'awesome feeling' in the dictionary and see the trajectory on that shot. :D:D[/quote']

Game 6 and Game 7 from that series are set to replay on 1/2/2010 at 8:30 am and 10:30 am during ESPN Classic's 6 days of programming on the sports stories of the last decade. Those of you looking for something to do that Saturday morning should tune in and smile.

[Imperial59]

ERA is not the best way to evaluate a pitcher. How many times need we say this?

 

I didn't state either pitcher's ERA in any recent posts. Perhaps you could benefit from some reading comprehension?

 

Wakefield's a knuckleball pitcher so ERA+ is arguably the most accurate stat you could use to assess his value. He doesn't fit the mold of tRA, FIP or WAR.

[Emmz]

Oh second thought...

[Dipre]

I didn't state either pitcher's ERA in any recent posts. Perhaps you could benefit from some reading comprehension?

 

Wakefield's a knuckleball pitcher so ERA+ is arguably the most accurate stat you could use to assess his value. He doesn't fit the mold of tRA, FIP or WAR.

 

Even if you did use ERA, he was trying to sell us on consistency earlier on (See:Burnett, AJ) 200 IP in 3 of the last 5 seasons right?

 

Then how does a history of seven seasons with above average ERA+ not factor into "consistency" there's been no "hint" of a decline on Wakefield's performance, and there is a precedent with other knuckleball pitchers.

 

"If the context helps the Red Sox, never use it as part on an argument."-Jacksonianmarch.

[Imperial59]

Even if you did use ERA, he was trying to sell us on consistency earlier on (See:Burnett, AJ) 200 IP in 3 of the last 5 seasons right?

 

Then how does a history of seven seasons with above average ERA+ not factor into "consistency" there's been no "hint" of a decline on Wakefield's performance, and there is a precedent with other knuckleball pitchers.

 

"If the context helps the Red Sox, never use it as part on an argument."-Jacksonianmarch.

 

I could spend an entire day calling out Jacko on his inconsistencies in his arguments, but I prefer to beat him on his own terms because it's slightly more challenging and much more fulfilling to prove him wrong on his own terms.

[jacksonianmarch]

I didn't state either pitcher's ERA in any recent posts. Perhaps you could benefit from some reading comprehension?

 

Wakefield's a knuckleball pitcher so ERA+ is arguably the most accurate stat you could use to assess his value. He doesn't fit the mold of tRA, FIP or WAR.

 

I do agree that Wakefield is unconventional, but when you are trying to compare him to a more durable strikeout pitcher, it is difficult. But trying to fit a square peg into a round hole isnt a good way to make a comparison either.

[rhet]

Game 6 and Game 7 from that series are set to replay on 1/2/2010 at 8:30 am and 10:30 am during ESPN Classic's 6 days of programming on the sports stories of the last decade. Those of you looking for something to do that Saturday morning should tune in and smile.

 

Thanks, ORS. I'm making a note of that.

[Dipre]

I do agree that Wakefield is unconventional' date=' but when you are trying to compare him to a more durable strikeout pitcher, it is difficult. But trying to fit a square peg into a round hole isnt a good way to make a comparison either.[/quote']

 

It doesn't matter. He's got a proven track record of success, and while his health is not the best, the point stands when talking about depth, our #6 pitcher, who isn't even slotted into the rotation right now, has a better ERA+ in the AL than your prized acquisition, so you're the one trying to fit a square peg in a round hole to justify the unjustifiable.

[Imperial59]

I do agree that Wakefield is unconventional' date=' but when you are trying to compare him to a more durable strikeout pitcher, it is difficult. But trying to fit a square peg into a round hole isnt a good way to make a comparison either.[/quote']

 

What "durable strike out pitcher" are we talking about here, Sergio Mitre? Because that's who your 6th starter is.

[diony]

What "durable strike out pitcher" are we talking about here' date=' Sergio Mitre? Because that's who your [b']6th starter[/b] is.

 

Joba/Hughes. Whoever ends up in the pen could be the 6th starter.

[Dipre]

Joba/Hughes. Whoever ends up in the pen could be the 6th starter.

 

Because they'll be able to stretch him out on short notice and weaken the bullpen at the same time?

[diony]

I said "they could". I'm pretty sure they'd prefer to do that rather than put Mitre out there. Especially if the guys like Melancon and Robertson excel in the bullpen.

[Dipre]

I said "they could". I'm pretty sure they'd prefer to do that rather than put Mitre out there. Especially if the guys like Melancon and Robertson excel in the bullpen.

 

Two "ifs".

 

And your "pretty sure" sounds pretty unrealistic to me. If they have a guy like Chad Gaudin or Sergio Mitre stretched out and ready to take a rotation spot if needed, why would they realistically go and stretch out a member of their setup corps? That makes absolutely no sense.