Why the obsession with A-Gon? Considering other alternatives...

[jacksonianmarch]

Clayton Richard and Aaron Poreda are going to be very good pitchers and the other two guys are good prospects as well. I actually think that the White Sox got ripped off in the Peavy deal since they get to pay the three most expensive yrs on his contract and he hasnt been full healthy in 2-3 seasons.

[Keeper]

I believe Richard will remain inconsistent and Poreda will ultimately be a reliever. Especially if his command doesn't improve. Peavy had 27 starts in 2008 and 34 starts in 2007. He hasn't been that injury-plagued.

[jacksonianmarch]

What you believe and what the scouts believe are two different things. Both Richard and Poreda are young, so they'll be inconsistent. But in SD, both will be starters and I think one of those two ends up replacing Peavy atop their rotation. If Hoyer and Co. do things right with the Adrian Gonzalez deal and get Buchholz plus, they are gonna have a hell of a rotation. Buchholz, Young, Poreda, Richard, Correia is going to be a pretty good 1-5 in 2011 and beyond IMO

[Keeper]

Well, I'm not a mindless fan. I don't believe every hyped prospect will strike gold. I've seen Richard and Poreda pitch. Richard doesn't have enough deception in his delivery. His stuff is just good enough to overcome his control issues, but not by much. Poreda could still develop, but right now his command sucks and his secondary pitches are just so-so. He's got a good fastball and a decent changeup, although he telegraphs it sometimes in his motion.

[SoxSport]

Since the Red Sox don't deal in fantasy money, I don't see another big ticket FA signing. Their next big ticket will be Beckett--hopefully. They are already planning that with their frontloading of Lackey's contract. I doubt they will even sign Papelbon--not for the money he will want. Bard will be the next closer in a year or two.

 

I think they will go hard at AdGon because it makes the most sense. I don't think they can trade both Buchholz and Ellsbury for him. They have enough other talent to do the job with just Buchholz.

 

They might get Beltre, but only at their price. Another RHd hitting platoon outfielder is also in the cards.

 

As for Morneau, he is one of the Twins' franchise guys along with Mauer, and I don't think he's going anywhere. I do think Theo will continue to bug the Marlins about Hanley R.

[Dojji]

Yeah, get Hanley, sign LaRoche for 1B, and Holliday or Bay for LF.

 

Ellsbury, LF/CF

Pedroia, 2B

Holliday, LF

Ramirez, SS

Drew, RF

Youkilis, 3B

Ortiz, DH

Martinez, C

LaRoche, 1B

 

 

25 HR hitter batting in the 9 spot for lack of anywhere else to put him.

 

Heck, forget LF, just get Hanley and LaRoche and run Cameron on the 9 hole. The potential for awesome is HUGE here.

[Plumpamania]

Well, I'm not a mindless fan. I don't believe every hyped prospect will strike gold. I've seen Richard and Poreda pitch. Richard doesn't have enough deception in his delivery. His stuff is just good enough to overcome his control issues, but not by much. Poreda could still develop, but right now his command sucks and his secondary pitches are just so-so. He's got a good fastball and a decent changeup, although he telegraphs it sometimes in his motion.

 

And playing in the NL and PETCO will surely help. Clayton Richard was a top level prospect and Poreda has some great upside to him. Both pitchers are fairly young and have a lot of room to improve and grow.

 

Peavy had 27 starts in 2008 and 34 starts in 2007.

 

And how many starts did he have in 2009? Uh-oh I see a trend of decreasing GS and Peavy has never really been a horse in terms of IP.

 

Ken Williams has made multiple deals that made little to zero sense. From his handling of Nick Swisher to Jim Thome's trade to his handling of Josh Fields and Javier Vazquez. He's doing the same thing to Bobby Jenks at the moment. It's seriously a wonder as to how they won a World Series with him.

 

I forgot the topic I started off w/ but Kenny Williams is a complete moron.

[Keeper]

Jake Peavy's workload

 

2003: 194 2/3 innings

2004: 166 1/3 innings

2005: 203 innings

2006: 202 1/3 innings

2007: 223 1/3 innings

2008: 173 2/3 innings

2009: 101 2/3 innings

 

Nearly 4 seasons out of 7 with 200 or more innings. In this day and age, that's not bad.

 

Nick Swisher played horribly for the Sox. At this point, it looks like Cashman got more value in the trade, but it's not like Williams had a lot of leverage with Swisher coming off his worst season.

 

The Jim Thome trade shows how little you know. Thome was dealt for his own good. Williams wanted to give him a shot at a WS.

 

Josh Fields is awful. That's not Williams' fault.

 

Javier Vazquez underperformed. He had 1 good season out of 3 with the Sox. The only thing he really did was eat up innings.

 

Now that Jenks is off roids, his velocity is way down. He blew 6 saves last season.

 

They won a WS in 2005 because Williams brought in Ozzie, Dye, Pierzynski, Iguchi, Uribe, Podsednik, Contreras, Everett, Garcia, Hermanson, Politte, Marte, Hernandez (who got out of a bases loaded-no outs jam in the postseason without giving up a run, Red Sox fans might remember this) Cotts, Blum (WS hero), and Jenks. And they won without Frank Thomas.

 

Also stole John Danks from the Rangers and Gavin Floyd from the Phillies.

[Plumpamania]

Josh Fields was a top rated prospect by Baseball America who was never truly given a shot to play everyday, and had his position on a field swapped in and out on a day to day basis and was put behind the aweful Joe Crede.

 

Blowing 6 saves is nothing horrible. Brian Fuentes had 7 and Joe Nathan had 5. Those are two of the best closers in baseball.

 

Vazquez did have one outstanding season with an ERA+ if 126 and two seasons at an ERA+ of 98. He won 42 games in 3 seasons with the White Sox and he hurled at minimum 208 IP per season. He was far from horrible. No pitcher really does well pitching at home in Chicago, as it's one of the top 3 "homer domes" in baseball (along with the new Yankee Stadium and the Great American Ballpark in Cincinatti).

 

More to come when I get home...

[Dipre]

Yeah, get Hanley, sign LaRoche for 1B, and Holliday or Bay for LF.

 

Ellsbury, LF/CF

Pedroia, 2B

Holliday, LF

Ramirez, SS

Drew, RF

Youkilis, 3B

Ortiz, DH

Martinez, C

LaRoche, 1B

 

 

25 HR hitter batting in the 9 spot for lack of anywhere else to put him.

 

Heck, forget LF, just get Hanley and LaRoche and run Cameron on the 9 hole. The potential for awesome is HUGE here.

 

Hanley seems like a much more difficult proposition than any of the other two names being thrown around here. You might like him, but Florida has given no indication whatsoever that they desire to trade him.

 

I would avoid LaRoche at all costs. He limits the potential for awesome exponentially.

 

Holliday and Bay would both seem like pipe dreams after signing Lackey, but since Bay's agent shot himself in the foot, and the Yankees are going to sign Johnson giving them no space for either on their roster, i don't see it as completely impossible.

[Keeper]

Josh Fields is a very bad baseball player. In 2007, he was a 1-tool player; he hit for power. Now, he doesn't even do that. Crede was an excellent defensive 3B who had a lot of back injuries and consistently hit for power.

 

I believe Jenks is on the decline. His velocity isn't what it used to be. In the past, he threw a heavy ball, but he gave up a lot of long balls this year. His 1.5 HR/9 in 2009 is terrible.

 

Vazquez is an NL pitcher. He was mediocre in New York and Chicago. The Cell is definitely a hitter's park, but guess what? Vazquez was actually worse on the road in 2006, 2007, and 2008 with the Sox. Check the splits.

 

No pitcher does well at home in Chicago? How about Buehrle (3.70 ERA, 1.249 WHIP), Floyd (3.57 ERA, 1.143 WHIP), Danks (3.66 ERA, 1.183 WHIP in 2008), Esteban Loaiza (3.32 ERA, 1.217 WHIP in 2003), Bartolo Colon (3.84 ERA, 1.151 WHIP in 2003), Jack McDowell (3.55 ERA, 1.276 WHIP), Jon Garland (4.15 ERA, 1.313 WHIP), Alex Fernandez (3.51 ERA, 1.171 WHIP), Wilson Alvarez (3.83 ERA, 1.381 WHIP), and Mike Sirotka (4.02 ERA, 1.363 WHIP). Even Vazquez pitched well at the Cell in 2007 (3.57 ERA, 1.099 WHIP).

[SoxSport]

Another big ticket will put them in the luxury tax, so I don't think it will happen. More likely would be a trade for AdGon or something else that doesn't cost big bucks. Branyon might be a possibility, but they seem to be committed to Kotchman because they like him defensively. He will have to hit better.

 

I've heard the delay on Lowell might be the Sox buying time to sort out the 3B situation. If Mike is healthy, bringing him back in a multi-role might not be a bad option.

[mvp 78]

Seriously, LaRoche? I just don't see it.

[Dipre]

Seriously' date=' LaRoche? I just don't see it.[/quote']

 

Thank you.

 

Thank you.

 

Thank you.

[mvp 78]

His best season was 4 years ago. He's 30, with limited upside. Of all the people we could hope for, he's not really up there. He's a stop-gap more than anything else.

 

And he's averaging a .263 obp and 26 gdp's per season in the AL! WTF??? (j/k)

[Dojji]

Seriously' date=' LaRoche? I just don't see it.[/quote']

 

LaRoche is the quick fix. An average to above average bat with average defense. He can fill the position with a competent player and leave you free to use your resources in other places.

 

If you focus your big-ticket money and major trade chips into other parts of the lineup and field -- say Hanley for SS and Holliday for LF -- and bring in LaRoche to replace Lowell, that's probably the way to upgrade the most positions possible, add the most offense possible overall, and maximize this year's lineup. And I like the idea of a lineup where the only two people who aren't poised to hit 20 or more homers are your #1 and #2 hitters.

 

You are taking a bit of a defensive hit at first base, but I think that's made up for in other areas, such as the defensive improvement in left field, the defensive improvement at third base, and the huge gain in runs scored.

[Dipre]

LaRoche is the quick fix. An average to above average bat with average defense. He can fill the position with a competent player and leave you free to use your resources in other places.

 

If you focus your big-ticket money and major trade chips into other parts of the lineup and field -- say Hanley for SS and Holliday for LF -- and bring in LaRoche to replace Lowell, that's probably the way to upgrade the most positions possible, add the most offense possible overall, and maximize this year's lineup. And I like the idea of a lineup where the only two people who aren't poised to hit 20 or more homers are your #1 and #2 hitters.

 

You are taking a bit of a defensive hit at first base, but I think that's made up for in other areas, such as the defensive improvement in left field, the defensive improvement at third base, and the huge gain in runs scored.

 

With Scutaro signed for five mill to play SS, i think it's not realistic to expect the FO to spend considerable resources to bring in another SS when they have technically already dumped Lowell to open up a corner infield position.

[Emmz]

Adam LaRoche definitely would be taking a step back, still, with all that we have to replace. He's better than Kotchman by a mile, but seriously? Replace Bay with Cameron, replace Lowell with LaRoche? You've been stating that Adrian Beltre wouldn't be an upgrade over Lowell, but LaRoche would? I don't understand that. Beltre's had similar-to-better OPS from 2006-2008, in Safeco field, and he's superior defensively.

[Dipre]

Adam LaRoche definitely would be taking a step back' date=' still, with all that we have to replace. He's better than Kotchman by a mile, but seriously? Replace Bay with Cameron, replace Lowell with LaRoche? You've been stating that Adrian Beltre wouldn't be an upgrade over Lowell, but LaRoche would? I don't understand that. Beltre's had similar-to-better OPS from 2006-2008, in Safeco field, and he's superior defensively.[/quote']

 

LaRoche will probably command a 2-year deal with a 7 mill AAV, while Beltre would command a 3-year, 9 mill AAV. I'd go with Beltre every time.

[Dojji]

Beltre's had similar-to-better OPS from 2006-2008

 

that's simply not true. LaRoche has been a consistent .800-.850 OPS hitter. Beltre has been a consistent .750-.800 OPS hittter. LaRoche has been consistently, if slightly, superior to Beltre as a hitter every year the two have both been in the league.

 

In fact, they were only tied one year, in 2007, and that was Beltre's best season since his breakout in 2004 -- and LaRoche's worst year since his rookie campaign.

 

And going further back, LaRoche's WORST offensive season, his .775 OPS 2005 campaign, represented about an average year for Beltre.

 

LaRoche has a career .834 OPS to Beltre's .770. And it aiin't exactly like the Pittsburgh Pirates have been spoiling him with vast protection in that lineup of theirs

 

Yeah, Beltre's OPS is the same as Ellsbury's. Whatta sluggah!

 

Beltre wins everything back in defense, and in his position along the defensive spectrum, but when it comes to offense alone, LaRoche is clearly the better hitter.

[Dipre]

that's simply not true. LaRoche has been a consistent .800-.850 OPS hitter. Beltre has been a consistent .750-.800 OPS hittter.

 

In fact, they were only tied one year, in 2007, and that was Beltre's best season since his breakout in 2004 -- and LaRoche's worst year since his rookie campaign.

 

LaRoche has a career .834 OPS to Beltre's .770.

 

Yeah, Beltre's OPS is the same as Ellsbury's. Whatta sluggah!

 

Smug comment. Typical Doiji.

 

Anyways, if we attempt to use logical analysis, it's easy to demonstrate how the stadium plays a pivotal position in Beltre's OPS, not to mention Ellsbury has never hit 25 HR's in three straight seasons.

 

If you ever break the twelve-year-old mentality pattern and reach a level of adulthood that will allow you to participate in baseball discussion not centered around your passion for the obviously inferior overall player (this is pathological too) then hit me up, i'll be ready to talk.

[jacksonianmarch]

LaRoche isnt coming to Boston. The Sox dealt him for Kotchmann for a reason. They value his defense and his ability to make contact over LaRoche's power capability.

 

Beltre would be an interesting player. He was absolutely terrible last season, so park effect or not, he really, really sucked. Now, one of his balls got smashed, so mulligans are possible when you become a uni-ball. With the move to Fenway, and surrounded by good hitters, he probably cracks the .800OPS mark. That being said, he needs to make a massive improvement over last season to approach that. Also, the sox will likely crack the luxury tax with a Beltre signing, so that might not be in the cards.

[Dojji]

Wow, Dipre it took you exactly two posts to employ your first and favorite logical falacy -- Argumentum ad homenim FTW!

 

(that's "For The Weak" by the way)

[Emmz]

that's simply not true. LaRoche has been a consistent .800-.850 OPS hitter. Beltre has been a consistent .750-.800 OPS hittter. LaRoche has been consistently, if slightly, superior to Beltre as a hitter every year the two have both been in the league.

 

In fact, they were only tied one year, in 2007, and that was Beltre's best season since his breakout in 2004 -- and LaRoche's worst year since his rookie campaign.

 

And going further back, LaRoche's WORST offensive season, his .755 OPS 2005 campaign, represented about an average year for Beltre.

 

LaRoche has a career .834 OPS to Beltre's .770. And it aiin't exactly like the Pittsburgh Pirates have been spoiling him with vast protection in that lineup of theirs

 

Yeah, Beltre's OPS is the same as Ellsbury's. Whatta sluggah!

 

Beltre wins everything back in defense, and in his position along the defensive spectrum, but when it comes to offense alone, LaRoche is clearly the better hitter.

 

Ballpark factors, my friend. Beltre's played in pitcher's parks his entire career. Not to mention, he's hit 20HR ever year pretty much since 2002 with the exception of last year. Only you could make the comparison to Ellsbury.

[Dojji]

LaRoche isnt coming to Boston. The Sox dealt him for Kotchmann for a reason.

 

Yeah, because the contract was expiring at the end of the season, and Kotchman had a couple years left. It was a way to get something for nothing, only instead they got 2 more years of nothing for nothing. On the whole it was a stupid reason, since LaRoche wouldn't be THAT difficult to re-sign and they were apparently going to try to get rid of Lowell anyway.

[Emmz]

Wow, Dipre it took you exactly two posts to employ your first and favorite logical falacy -- Argumentum ad homenim FTW!

 

(that's "For The Weak" by the way)

 

You're just proving his point. If you want to talk intelligent baseball, and stop the hypocrisy, then feel free to do so, otherwise I think the forum would appreciate an end to the smugness. Lord knows I'm echoing the sentiments of everyone else here.

[Dipre]

Wow, Dipre it took you exactly two posts to employ your first and favorite logical falacy -- Argumentum ad homenim FTW!

 

(that's "For The Weak" by the way)

 

If you're going to use the phrase, at least use it correctly.

 

If you can't see the fact that Beltre's the superior player and better fit, that's your problem.

 

Anyways, i'm done here, but let me leave with the suggestion to only use phrases with meanings you actually know to interpret.

 

Good day.

[Dojji]

Ballpark factors' date=' my friend. Beltre's played in pitcher's parks his entire career. Not to mention, he's hit 20HR ever year pretty much since 2002 with the exception of last year. Only you could make the comparison to Ellsbury.[/quote']

 

PNC park ain't exactly Coors Field, sister. You and Dipre are kinda abusing the park factor argument anyway -- trying to milk it for more than is reasonable.

[Dipre]

PNC park ain't exactly Coors Field' date=' sister. You and Dipre are kinda abusing the park factor argument anyway -- trying to milk it for more than is reasonable.[/quote']

 

Do you have the info on the park factors to back up your claim?

[Dojji]

You're just proving his point. If you want to talk intelligent baseball' date=' and stop the hypocrisy, then feel free to do so, otherwise I think the forum would appreciate an end to the smugness. Lord knows I'm echoing the sentiments of everyone else here.[/quote']

 

Well if you're going to round on me for smugness, you guys could maybe start by checking your freaking facts. You were dead wrong about LaRoche's offense vs. Beltre's, don't try to turn that around by getting offended at me by pointing it out.

 

And for the record, I don't want LaRoche because I'm desperate for LaRoche. I want LaRoche because I want us to go balls to the wall after Hanley and pick up a real slugging LF, and LaRoche will do to replace Lowell and complete the offseason. He's PART of the plan, he isn't the plan by himself. But SS is more important.