Why the obsession with A-Gon? Considering other alternatives...

[Dipre]

I think we can all agree Gonzalez is definitely in the upper tier of 1B...there just happens to be A LOT of company with him.

 

IMO it's not a wise investment to trade someone like Buchholz or Ellsbury for a 1B unless he is other-worldly like Pujols.

 

My point is that if you take him out of that hellhole in Petco he could probably be a complete and utter monster.

 

He hit 21 opposite-field home runs last year, imagine that opposite-field power matched up with the Green Monster.......

[redsoxrules]

If Theo dosent get Bay or Holliday , witch its looking that way ( Cameron sigining ) , we NEED A-Gon

[SoxSport]

The prospects' stock could go down' date=' as well. I don't think the answer is to trade Ellsbury with Buchholz, but rather to trade Buchholz with a few other prospects as well. Kelly, Westy, etc.[/quote']

 

I agree it's preferred to trade Buchholz rather than Ellsbury. They are pretty thin in the outfield and stronger in pitching. I wouldn't rely on Cameron for a whole season in CF at his age--and besides, Ellsbury still has upside and is their speed in the lineup. He's a dynamic player.

 

So what's going on inside Epstein's head? My guess is he won't trade Ellsbury, might trade Buchholz for AdGon, might sign Beltre if the price is right, might sign Nick Johnson if Beltre is too expensive.

[Dipre]

I agree it's preferred to trade Buchholz rather than Ellsbury. They are pretty thin in the outfield and stronger in pitching. I wouldn't rely on Cameron for a whole season in CF at his age--and besides, Ellsbury still has upside and is their speed in the lineup. He's a dynamic player.

 

So what's going on inside Epstein's head? My guess is he won't trade Ellsbury, might trade Buchholz for AdGon, might sign Beltre if the price is right, might sign Nick Johnson if Beltre is too expensive.

 

Nick Johnson's in negotiations with the Yankees, no chance there.

[THE ARS]

Disagree on Howard. You could make an argument for either Teixeira or Gonzalez. Pujols is a given. Fielder, probably.

 

Tom is not better than Gonzalez.

 

Tom is not better than Adrian Gonzalez NOW.

 

Let's give him some time to grow into the role.

 

Now, Ryan Howard doesn't produce runs like these other f***ers named? Come on.

 

Four full years, three RBI titles and two HR titles. That is a bad dude.

 

 

Tom

[Emmz]

Now, Ryan Howard doesn't produce runs like these other f***ers named? Come on.

 

Four full years, three RBI titles and two HR titles. That is a bad dude.

 

Did you really just say Howard is better than Pujols? Wait, what? I hope that's not what you said, because Pujols has had a 1.000+ OPS every year but his first year (I consider .997 to be 1.000, tbh).

 

Also, using RBI and HR as a measure of ability probably isn't the best way, OPS, OBP, etc, etc are much better stats for this.

[THE ARS]

I feel comfortable with my assumption.

 

Tom will be one of the best ball players ever, mark my words. Tom measures in yards, not feet, because he just hits the ball that far.

 

And, yes, brother, I do consider RBI the measure of a productive player. You hit in the four hole that is your job.

 

You are not there to walk, you are not there to advance runners.

 

You get paid the big money to drive in runs.

 

That's it. That's your job description.

 

Tom

[Dipre]

I feel comfortable with my assumption.

 

Tom will be one of the best ball players ever, mark my words. Tom measures in yards, not feet, because he just hits the ball that far.

 

And, yes, brother, I do consider RBI the measure of a productive player. You hit in the four hole that is your job.

 

You are not there to walk, you are not there to advance runners.

 

You get paid the big money to drive in runs.

 

That's it. That's your job description.

 

Tom

 

Actually, my good friend, a good cleanup hitter can both drive in runs and not make an excessive amount of outs.

 

Examples of this:

 

Pujols (Even though he hits from the 3-spot).

 

Cabrera.

 

Gonzales.

 

Teixeira.

 

Fielder.

[THE ARS]

You missed Manny. Better hitter than anyone you mention here, none have even come close to his 165 RBI in 140 games.

 

Funny how that works.

 

Tom

[Dipre]

You missed Manny. Better hitter than anyone you mention here, none have even come close to his 165 RBI in 140 games.

 

Funny how that works.

 

Tom

 

I was going for First basemen.

[Emmz]

I feel comfortable with my assumption.

 

Tom will be one of the best ball players ever, mark my words. Tom measures in yards, not feet, because he just hits the ball that far.

 

And, yes, sister, I do consider RBI the measure of a productive player. You hit in the four hole that is your job.

 

You are not there to walk, you are not there to advance runners.

 

You get paid the big money to drive in runs.

 

That's it. That's your job description.

 

Tom

 

Fixed.

 

The RBI is not the measure of a productive player. It's the measure of someone who has guys before him who get on base, and then he hits the jack, or drives in the run. Let's face it, if Pujols had the guys that Howard had, he'd have drove in many more runs, because he's the best there is at not getting out. Not to mention, he has just as much power as Howard does.

 

Howard's highest OPS is 1.084, a stat that Pujols has bettered 4 times in his career. Howard's had ONE season with an OPS above 1.000, Pujols has only gone under that, technically, twice. And one of those seasons (2007) it was .997, and the other was in his rookie season.

 

Not to mention, he plays in Phillie, a very hitter-friendly park indeed.

[Emmz]

You missed Manny. Better hitter than anyone you mention here, none have even come close to his 165 RBI in 140 games.

 

Funny how that works.

 

Tom

 

RBI is the least effective way of judging someone's ability to produce runs... It's a testament to the hitters in front of the said hitter.

[Dojji]

I'm not sure I believe that entirely, but RBI definitely does have a number of team-related confounding variables. It certainly shouldn't be looked at as a predictive indicator.

[Dipre]

I'm not sure I believe that entirely' date=' but RBI definitely does have a number of team-related confounding variables. It certainly shouldn't be looked at as a predictive indicator.[/quote']

 

RBI, like BA, should be used mainly as support stats. They hold no value by themselves, at least in my opinion.

[Dojji]

Certainly less than slash stats, offensive WAR, RC/27 or OPS+

[yankees228]

RBI is the least effective way of judging someone's ability to produce runs... It's a testament to the hitters in front of the said hitter.

 

Certain situations do transcend this, though. If a hitter (Manny for example), drives in an unusually high numbers of runs, that goes beyond just the guys in front of him, and can be used as part of an argument. At the same time, if a guy hitting in a power position has an unusually low number of RBIs (and the hitters in front of him get on base), then it should also be mentioned in an argument.

 

I agree with Dipre though, RBIs are best used as a supporting component of an argument.

[Emmz]

RBI' date=' like BA, should be used mainly as support stats. They hold no value by themselves, at least in my opinion.[/quote']

 

Yes. I use BA only when someone has a high OBP as well usually. Like you said, definitely a support stat. I don't even see RBI as very useful as a support stat, especially for someone as one-dimensional as Ryan Howard. Atleast in my opinion.

[THE ARS]

I was going for First basemen.

 

Dig it, I missed that.

 

 

Tom

[Keeper]

The prevaling notion that BA and RBIs are completely useless stats is flat out wrong. I agree that OBP is certainly more important and that not making outs is the objective of hitting, but a team with a low BA generally won't score a lot of runs...

[Dipre]

The prevaling notion that BA and RBIs are completely useless stats is flat out wrong. I agree that OBP is certainly more important and that not making outs is the objective of hitting' date=' but a team with a low BA generally won't score a lot of runs...[/quote']

 

Scoring runs is more directly correlated with actually getting on base than scoring hits.

 

You take a walk, steal second, move to third on a groundout, score on a sac fly. The more you get on base, the more likely you are to score runs.

[Emmz]

The prevaling notion that BA and RBIs are completely useless stats is flat out wrong. I agree that OBP is certainly more important and that not making outs is the objective of hitting' date=' but a team with a low BA generally won't score a lot of runs...[/quote']

 

Not if they have a high OBP, but yeah, generally you'd be right. Also, I don't think it's useless, but rather, I think it should be used as a support stat. I think we can all agree on that.

[THE ARS]

Fixed.

 

The RBI is not the measure of a productive player. It's the measure of someone who has guys before him who get on base, and then he hits the jack, or drives in the run. Let's face it, if Pujols had the guys that Howard had, he'd have drove in many more runs, because he's the best there is at not getting out. Not to mention, he has just as much power as Howard does.

 

Howard's highest OPS is 1.084, a stat that Pujols has bettered 4 times in his career. Howard's had ONE season with an OPS above 1.000, Pujols has only gone under that, technically, twice. And one of those seasons (2007) it was .997, and the other was in his rookie season.

 

Not to mention, he plays in Phillie, a very hitter-friendly park indeed.

 

Well, I don't care how many walks Albert Pujols can draw. I certainly wouldn't ask him to change his approach but I am not going to pay him $20M to walk 150 times.

 

But I'd pay him that to drive in 150.

 

You are on the wrong site, anyway.

 

THIS IS A NICE PLACE FOR GIRLS

 

Tom

[Keeper]

Scoring runs is more directly correlated with actually getting on base than scoring hits.

 

You take a walk, steal second, move to third on a groundout, score on a sac fly. The more you get on base, the more likely you are to score runs.

 

As I said, I agree with this philosophy. But not every run is scored that way. If no one is hitting above .260 on your team, it's going to be a long season.

[Loretta2]

With both Bay and Holliday still available, what do you guys think the chances are that any deal including Ellsbury would lead to the Sox ALSO signing one of those two and playing Cameron in his natural CF?

 

Adding both AGon and Holliday would be IMMENSE for the middle of the Red Sox line-up.

 

Also, this is the only way I personally want Ellsbury involved in this trade.

[Emmz]

Well, I don't care how many walks Albert Pujols can draw. I certainly wouldn't ask him to change his approach but I am not going to pay him $20M to walk 150 times.

 

But I'd pay him that to drive in 150.

 

High OBP=more runs for the team. With Pujols, he has just as much power as Howard, contrary to what you've been saying, and gets on base to give his team a chance to drive in more runs. It's pretty simple, actually.

 

You are on the wrong site, anyway.

 

THIS IS A NICE PLACE FOR GIRLS

 

Tom

 

Hmm? Sexist jokes? Nice. You're a class act. I'm done with this.

[Dipre]

Well, I don't care how many walks Albert Pujols can draw. I certainly wouldn't ask him to change his approach but I am not going to pay him $20M to walk 150 times.

 

But I'd pay him that to drive in 150.

 

You are on the wrong site, anyway.

 

THIS IS A NICE PLACE FOR GIRLS

 

Tom

 

Albert Pujols:

 

OPS RBI Runs HR OBP

 

1.101 135 124 47 .443

 

 

Ryan Howard:

 

OPS RBI Runs HR OBP

 

.931 141 105 45 .360

 

 

As you can see, Pujols and Howard had similar offensive numbers, with Pujols holding a decided edge in OBP and Runs scored, these two, of course, go hand in hand, let's compare the overall "Hand" Pujols and Howard had in the runs scored by each of their teams:

 

 

135 RBI + 124 R= 259 Runs.

 

 

Howard:

141 RBI + 105 R= 246 Runs.

 

 

That's a thirteen run scored difference in production that derived directly from Pujol's ability to get on base more consistently while hitting in a vastly inferior lineup.

 

You sent the girl to the volleyball site, but i suggest you reconsider your position as to who visits the site seeing as how she's right, and the stats back it up.

[Dipre]

As I said' date=' I agree with this philosophy. But not every run is scored that way. If no one is hitting above .260 on your team, it's going to be a long season.[/quote']

 

They can be hitting .260, but if they're getting on base at a combined .350 + clip and hitting for power, they will score runs. Lots of them.

[Emmz]

Albert Pujols:

 

OPS RBI Runs HR OBP

 

1.101 135 124 47 .443

 

 

Ryan Howard:

 

OPS RBI Runs HR OBP

 

.931 141 105 45 .360

 

 

As you can see, Pujols and Howard had similar offensive numbers, with Pujols holding a decided edge in OBP and Runs scored, these two, of course, go hand in hand, let's compare the overall "Hand" Pujols and Howard had in the runs scored by each of their teams:

 

 

135 RBI + 124 R= 259 Runs.

 

 

Howard:

141 RBI + 105 R= 246 Runs.

 

 

That's a thirteen run scored difference in production that derived directly from Pujol's ability to get on base more consistently while hitting in a vastly inferior lineup.

 

You sent the girl to the volleyball site, but i suggest you reconsider your position as yo who visits the site seeing as how she's right, and the stats back it up.

 

What I have in bold is what I want to drive home the most. Pujols was better at producing in a lineup that's, as you said, VASTLY inferior.

[bsox0407]

What I have in bold is what I want to drive home the most. Pujols was better at producing in a lineup that's' date=' as you said, VASTLY inferior.[/quote']

 

Its not like pujols puts the guys he drives in in scoring position. that is why RBI is a lousy stat. A player could be amazing hitting out of the four hole yet 1-3 suck and barely get on. Put Ryan Howard or Pujols on the Pirates. In the Four hole.

[Keeper]

They can be hitting .260' date=' but if they're getting on base at a combined .350 + clip and hitting for power, they will score runs. Lots of them.[/quote']

 

That is true, but again if you are lacking in power or plate discipline, BA comes into play. And since not every player has power and plate discipline, BA inevitably comes into play.