Why the obsession with A-Gon? Considering other alternatives...

[Dipre]

By all accounts, i believe Fenway park could only help boost Beltre's HR numbers, at least. Whereas a LH hitter who can't drive the ball the other way like LaRoche or Delgado would be hurt by Fenway's difficulty for LHH.

[Dojji]

OK, well reinterpreting that as appropriate then, the same number says 16 parks help RHH homer to straightaway left more than Fenway does, and 12 parks help RHH homer to left center more than Fenway does.

 

Again, "middle of the pack." And that's at the side hitters have an EASIER time homering from.

 

The real strength of Fenway Park is not homers. It is DOUBLES. We are the Coors Field of doubles. And that means that for best effect, we need RH hitters who hit for high averages with moderate-to-good power. And low average hitters who all they hit is homers will tend to struggle here. Consistent contact for a high average with lots and lots of gap power is the name of the game. And if that's what you're looking for Hanley is the better fit, by far, compared to Adrian Gonzalez.

[Dipre]

OK, well reinterpreting that as appropriate then, the same number says 16 parks help RHH homer to straightaway left more than Fenway does, and 12 parks help RHH homer to left center more than Fenway does.

 

Again, "middle of the pack." And that's at the side hitters have an EASIER time homering from.

 

The real strength of Fenway Park is not homers. It is DOUBLES. We are the Coors Field of doubles. And that means that for best effect, we need RH hitters who hit for high averages with moderate-to-good power. And low average hitters who all they hit is homers will tend to struggle here. Consistent contact for a high average with lots and lots of gap power is the name of the game. And if that's what you're looking for Hanley is the better fit, by far, compared to Adrian Gonzalez.

 

http://www.hittrackeronline.com/parks/Gonzalez_Adrian_2009_scatter.jpg

 

Adrian Gonzales hit 21 HRs to the opposite field last year, with a number between 10-20 fly balls that would have been either 2B's or HR's at Fenway Park instead of Petco.

 

He had a .306 BA with 43 XBH (28 HR's, 15 2B's) outside of Petco Park last year.

 

Then there's also the issue that, unlike Hanley, he's been reported as available by several media outlets, so he would not only be the better choice (unless you were going by positional standards) but also the most realistic and cost-effective one.

[Dipre]

http://www.hittrackeronline.com/parks/Ramirez_Hanley_2009_scatter.jpg

 

This is the chart for Hanley Ramirez. As you can see from the illustration, Adrian Gonzales actually hit more HR's (21) than Hanley (20) to Left Field.

[ORS]

OK, well reinterpreting that as appropriate then, the same number says 16 parks help RHH homer to straightaway left more than Fenway does, and 12 parks help RHH homer to left center more than Fenway does.

 

Again, "middle of the pack." And that's at the side hitters have an EASIER time homering from.

 

The real strength of Fenway Park is not homers. It is DOUBLES. We are the Coors Field of doubles. And that means that for best effect, we need RH hitters who hit for high averages with moderate-to-good power. And low average hitters who all they hit is homers will tend to struggle here. Consistent contact for a high average with lots and lots of gap power is the name of the game. And if that's what you're looking for Hanley is the better fit, by far, compared to Adrian Gonzalez.

Quit. "Middle of the pack" is what you came up with once you had access to data. Earlier it was, "not a good park for HR for anyone". It is good for RHH ..... or LHH who hit the ball the other way regularly.

 

Yeah, I'd rather have Hanley too.....and Albert.....oh, and Ryan Zimmerman for 3B.

 

Problem: They aren't definitely available. Adrian Gonzalez is.

[Dipre]

 

Then there's also the issue that, unlike Hanley, he's been reported as available by several media outlets, so he would not only be the better choice (unless you were going by positional standards) but also the most realistic and cost-effective one.

 

 

Problem: They aren't definitely available. Adrian Gonzalez is.

[Dojji]

I'm not sure how available Adrian is. Hoyer is asking for the moon and stars. You could probably blow away Florida for the "not available" Hanley for a similar price.

 

Quit. "Middle of the pack" is what you came up with once you had access to data. Earlier it was, "not a good park for HR for anyone". It is good for RHH ..... or LHH who hit the ball the other way regularly.

 

It's an average park for RHH, and a bad one for LHH. That averages out to a tough place to hit a HR. And it's certainly not a bandbox in any direction. Please stop trying to beat on me with minor technicalities.

 

This is the chart for Hanley Ramirez. As you can see from the illustration, Adrian Gonzales actually hit more HR's (21) than Hanley (20) to Left Field.

 

1: Is there a similar chart for doubles? I'd like to take a look at it, since your argument doesn't even refute that point of mine. As a righthanded pull hitter I imagine that Hanley would have a huge advantage there, and that's the part Fenway will really help.

 

EDIT: Yeah, Hanley routinely hits about 10-15 more doubles a season and hits for a much higher AVG.

 

2: Hanley's a shortstop. He doesn't need to produce as much as Gonzo to be worth the same.

[Dipre]

Well you're ignoring the stats adjustment from Petco to Fenway. And as long as Gonzales is reported as available and Hanley isn't, i don't mean it as an insult, but i'll believe the media sources.

[Dojji]

Well you're ignoring the stats adjustment from Petco to Fenway.

 

I just don't believe it's going to be as big as you claim.

 

And as long as Gonzales is reported as available and Hanley isn't, i don't mean it as an insult, but i'll believe the media sources.

 

That's reasonable, but Florida certainly has at least as much motive to trade Hanley as Hoyer does to move his best player. And with the Marlins, you can load some quantity to take the edge off the quality.

[Dipre]

I just don't believe it's going to be as big as you claim.

 

Consider this:

 

Adrian Gonzales home/away splits:

 

Home: .244/.413/.446 .859 OPS

 

Away: .306/.402/.643 1.045 OPS.

 

You don't think he would massively improve on those numbers at Fenway enough to justify a statistical progression even if he regresses on the road?

 

 

That's reasonable, but Florida certainly has at least as much motive to trade Hanley as Hoyer does to move his best player. And with the Marlins, you can load some quantity to take the edge off the quality.

 

My point on the issue is, that unless there is some sort of indicator as to Hanley's availability, i wouldn't count on him as a trade target.

[Dojji]

I don't think you can look at the road numbers of someone who plays in the same division as Coors' Field and assume that he'll play to that level. It'd be nice, you know I'd love to see it happen, but I'm loath to count on it.

[Dipre]

I don't think you can look at the road numbers of someone who plays in the same division as Coors' Field and assume that he'll play to that level. It'd be nice' date=' you know I'd love to see it happen, but I'm loath to count on it.[/quote']

 

AT&T Park, Dodger Stadium, Chase Field, Petco Park, Coors Field Vs. Fenway Park, New Yankee Stadium, Rogers Centre, Camden Yard, Tropicana Field.

 

Don't see the big difference. Three pitcher's parks/Two Hitters Park in the NL West Versus Three Hitter's parks/Two Neutral parks in the AL East, so i don't really follow where you're coming from.

[Emmz]

Yeah, if I were a hitter, I think the AL East is about where you wanna be. Coors is probably the best hitters park, but Fenway, NYS, and Camden Yards are VERY hitter-friendly as well. Also, AT&T, Dodger, and Petco are three of the biggest pitchers parks in the league. He spends well over half his games in pitchers parks, and not to mention, against the likes of some very, very good pitching. (And at Chase, against Haren and Webb too).

[Dipre]

Yeah' date=' if I were a hitter, I think the AL East is about where you wanna be. Coors is probably the best hitters park, but Fenway, NYS, and Camden Yards are VERY hitter-friendly as well. Also, AT&T, Dodger, and Petco are three of the biggest pitchers parks in the league. He spends well over half his games in pitchers parks, and not to mention, against the likes of some very, very good pitching. (And at Chase, against Haren and Webb too).[/quote']

 

Dan Haren, Brandon Webb, Tim Lincecum, Matt Cain, Clayton Kershaw, Chad Billingsley, Ubaldo Jimenez, among some other pretty good-elite pitchers pitch in the NL West.

[Dojji]

You could come up with 6-7 really talented pitchers in every division though. Except maybe the AL West 'cuz they only have 4 teams.

[Dipre]

You could come up with 6-7 really talented pitchers in every division though. Except maybe the AL West 'cuz they only have 4 teams.

 

Oh but of course, you are absolutely correct, the point was that, even though the AL East probably has better pitching, there is still some high level-elite pitching in the NL West.

[Emmz]

You could come up with 6-7 really talented pitchers in every division though. Except maybe the AL West 'cuz they only have 4 teams.

 

Those are good-to-elite pitchers though. Lincecum, Cain, Kershaw, Webb, Haren, etc could all easily contend for a Cy Young award. Also, name 6 pitchers of THAT quality in every division, and you have yourself an argument.

[Emmz]

Oh but of course' date=' you are absolutely correct, the point was that, even though the AL East probably has better pitching, there is still some high level-elite pitching in the NL West.[/quote']

 

I don't see it in the AL Central either. I can only think of Verlander and being in the same league as those mentioned, but while I'm sure there are others, I can't think of any more right now. Help me out.

[Dojji]

I don't see it in the AL Central either. I can only think of Verlander and being in the same league as those mentioned' date=' but while I'm sure there are others, I can't think of any more right now. Help me out.[/quote']

 

Greinke.

[Dipre]

Greinke.

 

Buehrle, Floyd and Danks are pretty good too.

[Dojji]

I'd forgotten about Buehrle. Floyd had an off year. Good call on Danks though.

[Dipre]

I'd forgotten about Buehrle. Floyd had an off year. Good call on Danks though.

 

Floyd's still pretty good though. A 4.06 ERA and 193.0 innings is nothing to sneeze at.

[Dojji]

Indeed, but it's hardly elite.

 

Anyway, I was nosing around -- I mentioned this in the other thread -- and I noticed that Paul Konerko is in about the right position to be an ideal one year rental. Be a half decent fit at Fenway, too. Not Adrian Gonzalez, but not a train wreck either. Maybe if the Max Ramirez thing falls through we can throw them Lowell and some prospects and bring him along.

[Keeper]

Greinke and Verlander are the cream of the crop, and the Sox pitchers already mentioned are all good (my man crush on Buehrle is well-documented). I also like Baker a lot, even though he had a bit of a down year. Blackburn is a good guy to have at the back end of a rotation. Slowey, Porcello, and Scherzer each have a lot of potential. And I think Peavy will soon be joining Greinke and Verlander as one of the elite pitchers in that division. Now that Cliff Lee is gone, the Guardians have no one. Pretty sad what they have to work with.

 

I like Konerko a lot, but if you want him you can have him. His best years are behind him. Still, he's a dead pull hitter, so he probably wouldn't do too bad at Fenway.

[Dipre]

Greinke and Verlander are the cream of the crop, and the Sox pitchers already mentioned are all good (my man crush on Buehrle is well-documented). I also like Baker a lot, even though he had a bit of a down year. Blackburn is a good guy to have at the back end of a rotation. Slowey, Porcello, and Scherzer each have a lot of potential. And I think Peavy will soon be joining Greinke and Verlander as one of the elite pitchers in that division.

 

I like Konerko a lot, but if you want him you can have him. His best years are behind him. Still, he's a dead pull hitter, so he probably wouldn't do too bad at Fenway.

 

Memories of 2005 still haunt me........

[Keeper]

Konerko was a beast that postseason. As was Crede.

[Dipre]

Konerko was a beast that postseason. As was Crede.

 

Garland. How times change.

[Emmz]

Garland had such a great year. The 2005 White Sox pretty much dismantled everyone that year. Good offense, great pitching. No one had a chance, and they absolutely s*** on my two favorite teams (Twins and Red Sox).

[Keeper]

Garland had such a great year. The 2005 White Sox pretty much dismantled everyone that year. Good offense' date=' great pitching. No one had a chance, and they absolutely s*** on my two favorite teams (Twins and Red Sox).[/quote']

 

Everything came together in '05 for the Sox. They got career years from Garland, Contreras, Politte, Hermanson, and Cotts. Buehrle also had his best or second best season.

 

Everyone thought Garcia and Everett were through. Their closer from the year before s*** the bed, and luckily they got Jenks off waivers. The Big Hurt got hurt, and it ended up not hurting them. Iguchi had a great rookie season.

 

Podsednik played out of his mind in the postseason. And Blum and Hernandez, who hadn't done anything during the regular season, came up huge when it mattered most. They also got incredibly lucky with Pierzynski's "dropped third strike." They might have lost that game without his acting job, and then they would have been down 0-2 in the ALCS.

 

But everyone knows the biggest reason why they won it all that year was the starting pitching. Those guys were horses from April to October.

[flinch]

Derrick Lee would do the trick. I agree with Korneko for a year. We need someone. One more bat, tell me Theo will give us one more xmas present.