Unofficial Adrian Gonzalez thread.

[jacksonianmarch]

Hanley is not getting traded. You fixate on him, but he's paid actually bargain money through 2013 and the Fish are opening a new stadium soon. He's the face of the franchise, putting up MVP numbers for $11 mil a season.

[a700hitter]

We've had to wait a whole heck of a lot longer than that in the past. And we don't need specifically Adgon to compete with the Yankees.

...and when we were sending out inferior teams all of those years, Fenway was not sold out and they weren't charging the highest ticket prices in baseball. The fans are spending the high prices for tickets and filling Fenway every night to see a team that can beat the Yankees and win the whole thing. The fans will catch on fast if they are made to wait and they will no longer be fill Fenway and team revenue will be impacted. I don't think the owners will want to damage the franchise that they have worked so hard to build.

[Dojji]

Jacko: You can apply exactly that same argument to Adrian Gonzalez.

[jacksonianmarch]

Jacko: You can apply exactly that same argument to Adrian Gonzalez.

 

Gonzalez has 2 yrs left on his deal. By 2012, Hanley will be on the market.

[riverside sluggers]

Right now this is the lineup, according to Sports Tonight

 

1. Jacoby Ellsbury cf

2. Dustin Pedroia 2b

3. Victor Martinez c

4. Kevin Youkilis 3b

5. David Ortiz dh

6. JD Drew rf

7. Mike Cameron lf

8. Casey Kotchman 1b

9. Marco Scutaro ss

[Dojji]

Yeah, NWIH Kotchman goes into the season as the starting 1B.

 

That said, snag a veteran 1B with some productive years left and we're good to go Not the same level of lineup that the Yankees have, but a lot of their key players are aging or gone and we have the vastly superior rotation, so I think it balances out.

[jacksonianmarch]

If I was a sox fan, I would hate that lineup as is.

 

#1- its a major dropoff from 2009, but we have been over that ad nauseum.

 

#2- it is a very easy matchup. Get through Youk and you have 3 lefties in 4 batters. Anyone with any kind of lefty reliever will burn through that portion of the order. I liked the idea of flip-flopping Cameron and Drew and Kotchmann and Scutaro

[Dojji]

If I was a sox fan, I would hate that lineup as is.

 

#1- its a major dropoff from 2009, but we have been over that ad nauseum.

 

Actually, I'm not so sure that's true. If you replace Kotchman with a league average 1B I don't think run production takes that much of a hit, especially with a full year of Victor Martinez balancing the loss of Jason Bay.

 

#2- it is a very easy matchup. Get through Youk and you have 3 lefties in 4 batters. Anyone with any kind of lefty reliever will burn through that portion of the order. I liked the idea of flip-flopping Cameron and Drew and Kotchmann and Scutaro

 

All the more reason to look for a veteran RHH 1B. Which is one of the reasons that Adrian Gonzalez doesn't really top my list of "World's Greatest Fits With Boston's Current Needs."

[jacksonianmarch]

Yeah, NWIH Kotchman goes into the season as the starting 1B.

 

That said, snag a veteran 1B with some productive years left and we're good to go Not the same level of lineup that the Yankees have, but a lot of their key players are aging or gone and we have the vastly superior rotation, so I think it balances out.

 

For the first 162, it is more about how you compare to the rest of the league rather than head to head. Also, do we need to go into the rotation differences here again and how the final two spots on both teams are crap shoots?

 

Regardless, I'll go to war knowing that the Yankee roster will outperform the sox roster over 162 games and then be willing to hand the ball to CC 2 times in a 5 game set and 3 times in a 7 game set.

[a700hitter]

Hanley is not getting traded. You fixate on him' date=' but he's paid actually bargain money through 2013 and the Fish are opening a new stadium soon. He's the face of the franchise, putting up MVP numbers for $11 mil a season.[/quote']The Marlins have no face of the franchise. They have no following. I have family members who are marlin season ticket holders. Keeping Hanley for the reason you stated is not really a big consideration for the team. They need to start wiining on a consistent basis with a good core group of players to start to build a loyal fan base. Hanley is one player. They have no core. The rest of the team is s***. Hanley is the one asset they have that could be used in a trade to build a future core of good players.

[Dojji]

Actually the Marlins have a fair offense, they just have no pitching outside of Josh Johnson. Turning Hanley into two or three high upside SP's and Daniel Bard would appeal to them I think.

[riverside sluggers]

I highly doubt Hanley gets moved in the near future

[Dojji]

It's more realistic to think Hanley gets moved than Adgon will actually. Hanley is less affordable to his team, and has had some personality issues leak out, and is a pretty dang big failure as a "draw," if Florida's attendance is any indicator. Adgon on the other hand is squeaky clean, dirt cheap and popular in the home country. He actually IS the kind of face-of-the-franchise that Florida is wishing Hanley was.

 

Hoyer is fully capable of waiting til next year to trade Adgon anyway, and considering how cool he's been to some really quite generous Boston trade offers you have to wonder just how available Adgon really is.

[Rdsxmbnt]

I highly doubt Hanley gets moved in the near future

 

Well Theo made a big run at the 23 year old ace of an above .500 team, I don't think you can rule anything out.

[example1]

It may be okay from a business standpoint' date=' but as fans let's not kid ourselves. The team as currently constructed, with Kotchman and the 37 year old Cameron replacing Lowell and Bay, [b']cannot beat the Yankees[/b]. Last off season the Yankees made moves that re-established their dominance over the Sox, and this off season the Sox made moves that have not closed the gap.

 

What does it mean to "beat the Yankees"? To beat them in individual games? To beat them in a playoffs series? To win the division? What?

 

Unless Ortiz can maintain the pace he hit in the after june of last year, we have no legitimate power hitter. Victor Martinez, Youkilis and Drew are excellent hitters, but not big power guys.

 

We have 3 players who slugged over .500 last year. You named them. There are 4 players who had more than 20 HR (Youk, Drew, Ortiz and V-Mart's combined seasons). They just added another 20+ HR guy in Cameron.

 

Drew is always an injury risk with two bad shoulders and an injured back. Ellsbury has yet to establish himself as a consistent hitter. Pedroia took a big step back in 2009 for his 2008 insane year. his performance last season may be he level. Scutaro is a career utility guy.

 

Glass half-empty today, huh?

 

OR, Drew was among the leaders in outfield OPS, Ellsbury is an emerging offensive force, Pedroia hits really well for a 2B and Scutaro is coming off a career year and sees more pitches per PA than most hitters in baseball and is extremely difficult to strike out.

 

Oh yeah, they also added the best FA pitcher on the market to the best Sox rotation in my lifetime and they have a legitimate bullpen and improved defense.

 

 

As a fan, I'm not happy with a team that has no realistic prospects of beating the Yankees and winning a world championship.

 

Please list for me the teams that have "realistic prospects of beating the Yankees and winning a world championship".

 

As far as I can tell, the Red Sox and Phillies are very probably the immediate second-tier of teams. Yankees then Phillies/Sox. I admit that they can't beat the Yankees on paper, but nobody can. While beating them on paper would be great, so would some other team knocking the Yankees out and having the Sox role (remember 2007?).

 

It may be okay for you, but I view it as treading water and wasting my time for the next two seasons unless they add another bat before opening day.

 

How can you both argue that you have been a fan for decades of this team, and then claim that--when they are the envy of all of baseball (minus the Yankees)--you are wasting your time if they can't beat the Yankees on paper?

 

For fans that pay the highest ticket prices in baseball, watching a journeyman like Scutaro man the most important defensive position on the field and Kotchman play a traditional power position is not acceptable.

 

Yes it is. Scutaro is a legitimate MLB SS and is an improvement over what they had last year.

 

I am a big believer in pitching and defense. It was my hope that last offseason that they would make moves to improve their pitching. I like the Lackey move, but this offense is not going to be enough.

 

Yes it will. They will improve on their run differential from last year and will be a much better road team because of their defensive improvements and the upgrade from Green/Gonzalez to Scutaro.

 

I know it is hard to realize if you don't trust the various metrics, but Cameron has been consistently more valuable than Bay when defense is taken into account, and Ellsbury has the chance to be an elite LF if his defense from 2008 is any indication. Scutaro is a WAR upgrade to AGon, and Lackey is much, much better than Penny.

 

This team has improved and they are really set up well for the future... but we can talk about that in 2013 when you and I are still here talking about the Red Sox (god willing) and they are still one of the very best teams in baseball.

[jacksonianmarch]

Generous offers? Do you know of any? I have heard speculation, but I havent heard any offers.

[Plumpamania]

2011 Key Free Agents (as of today):

Catcher

Victor Martinez

Joe Mauer

 

First Base

Garrett Atkins

Lance Berkman

Adam Dunn

Jorge Cantu

Carlos Pena

Albert Pujols (club option)

 

Second Base

David Eckstein

 

Short Stop

Derek Jeter

Jose Reyes

Jhonny Peralta

 

Third Baseman

Garrett Atkins

Jorge Cantu

Eric Chavez

Bill Hall

Mike Lowell

Jhonny Peralta

Aramis Ramirez

Scott Rolen

 

Left Field

Carl Crawford

Jason Kubel

Manny Ramirez

David DeJesus

 

Centerfield

NONE

 

Right Field

Brad Hawpe

Jayson Werth

 

DH

David Ortiz

Jason Kubel

Pat Burrell

Hideki Matsui

 

Starting Pitchers

Josh Beckett

Joe Blanton

Jeremy Bonderman

Matt Cain (vesting option)

Jorge De La Rosa

Jeff Francis (club option)

Rich Harden

Aaron Harang

Hiroki Kuroda

Cliff Lee

Ted Lilly

Kevin Millwood

Andy Pettite

Javier Vazquez

Brandon Webb

Chris Young (club option)

 

Relievers

Brian Fuentes (vesting option)

Trevor Hoffman (mutual option)

Chad Qualls

Mariano Rivera

Billy Wagner (vesting options)

Kerry Wood (club option)

Huston Street

Rafael Soriano

J.J. Putz

Grant Balfour

Dan Wheeler (club option)

Jeremy Affeldt

pedro Feliciaion

J.C. Romero (club option)

 

 

That's whats available after next season potentially. If we don't make the upgrade this offseason it's treading for potentionally longer.

[Dojji]

I dunno, Berkman's interesting. Also, that list somehow omits Paul Konerko, who at 35 would have a good year left in him perhaps. And I can't help but notice Reyes at SS either.

[example1]

Also, a700, re: the ticket prices... I think it is time for this argument to go away. If you don't like the ticket prices stop going to the games.

 

I go to rougly 1 game a year. I don't live in the area and don't really have the chance. When I get to go it is great but you need to realize that a huge portion of Sox $$ comes from TV revenue, and that for every night that there are 38,000 people in the stands there are millions watching at home. If you don't like the prices do what many other people do. If you like going to games and have the money to spend, go for it, but realize that the return is a chance to watch a good team play in person.... not a guaranteed WS win.

 

You are grossly overrating the importance of whatever degree of investment you make in this team. Your money could disappear from the face of the Earth tomorrow and the Red Sox would not notice. You are not investing in a local non-profit, you're investing in a huge company that has millions of loyal fans--of which you are one.

 

As ORS said earlier, there are lots of people who don't have the resources to be able to complain about having to pay more money to be able to go to spring training or to the games. Perhaps some perspective is in order. Likewise, there are 25+ other MLB teams that would LOVE to have the Red Sox resources and current roster. Again, perhaps some perspective is in order.

[Dipre]

It's more realistic to think Hanley gets moved than Adgon will actually. Hanley is less affordable to his team, and has had some personality issues leak out, and is a pretty dang big failure as a "draw," if Florida's attendance is any indicator. Adgon on the other hand is squeaky clean, dirt cheap and popular in the home country. He actually IS the kind of face-of-the-franchise that Florida is wishing Hanley was.

 

Hoyer is fully capable of waiting til next year to trade Adgon anyway, and considering how cool he's been to some really quite generous Boston trade offers you have to wonder just how available Adgon really is.

 

How is it more realistic to trade for a player whose FO hasn't expressed a willingness to trade than a player whose FO is publicly open to trading, and whose GM has even asked for specific player if a trade were to happen?

[Spudboy]

It may be okay from a business standpoint, but as fans let's not kid ourselves. The team as currently constructed, with Kotchman and the 37 year old Cameron replacing Lowell and Bay, cannot beat the Yankees. Last off season the Yankees made moves that re-established their dominance over the Sox, and this off season the Sox made moves that have not closed the gap. This Red Sox lineup will scare no one, and I expect that it's run production will be very inconsistent. Unless Ortiz can maintain the pace he hit in the after june of last year, we have no legitimate power hitter. Victor Martinez, Youkilis and Drew are excellent hitters, but not big power guys. Drew is always an injury risk with two bad shoulders and an injured back. Ellsbury has yet to establish himself as a consistent hitter. Pedroia took a big step back in 2009 for his 2008 insane year. his performance last season may be he level. Scutaro is a career utility guy. If they wait until next year to land a big bat, he will probably be replacing Ortiz. By 2011 , the health-challenged Drew will be 35 years old. Adding a big bat in 2011, to replace Ortiz IMO wouldn't bring the team to a much higher level. As a fan, I'm not happy with a team that has no realistic prospects of beating the Yankees and winning a world championship. It may be okay for you, but I view it as treading water and wasting my time for the next two seasons unless they add another bat before opening day. With a lineup this thin, if there are just a couple of injuries, I think this team could really tank.

 

For fans that pay the highest ticket prices in baseball, watching a journeyman like Scutaro man the most important defensive position on the field and Kotchman play a traditional power position is not acceptable. I am a big believer in pitching and defense. It was my hope that last offseason that they would make moves to improve their pitching. I like the Lackey move, but this offense is not going to be enough.

 

I'm with you Ted. I guess we, as the resident "geezers', have seen this act before and are jaded.

 

Look, I don't want to be a buzz kill, but I still believe the Sox FO's primary objective is to make money. To do that, they need to create and feed the perception that they are competitive and "Championship Driven". That way they maintain rabid fan interest, fill the seats, sell sponsorship and advertising, merchandise, etc. Ultimately, it comes down to R.O.I., and the Sox off season moves to date have been cost effective within that context.

 

I agree that a middle order big bat is needed. But I won't hold my breath. I don't think Theo is done this winter. But further moves will be "depth" related. Bull pen and bench players.

 

I don't buy into the "run prevention" theme. It's just a spin to cover the real motivation. Let's spend some money. But let's make a shitload. I really like the Lackey acquisition.

He's an inarticulate, s*** kicking dufus, but he is an inning grinding top of the rotation guy that gives the Sox the best 1-3 in the league.

 

While I'm on my soap box, I am not so sure that the Sox have the best rotation in the AL or MLB. On paper, it's a solid 1-5, even 1-6. But I am still not sure what to expect from Dice-K. Buck seems to be on his way to fulfilling expectations, but it's just too early to expect that he will be another Lester quality starter. Wake? I love the guy, but he is not going to improve. We can only hope for, at best, career average performance. And that is hoping for a lot.

 

Never the less, I'll be swallowing some of the koolaid by opening day.

 

Some habits are really tough to break.

[Dipre]

The Sox made a legitimate offer to the Padres for Adrian Gonzales. The rest is up to them. If the Sox didn't want to build a championship team, they wouldn't be fielding the most expensive Red Sox ballclub in history next season after shelling out over 100 million dollars in FA's.

 

You guys say one thing, but the FO's actions point the other way, and actions speak louder than words.

[jacksonianmarch]

Generous offers? Do you know of any? I have heard speculation' date=' but I havent heard any offers.[/quote']

 

still waiting

[a700hitter]

What does it mean to "beat the Yankees"? To beat them in individual games? To beat them in a playoffs series? To win the division? What?

Is this a multiple choice test? The Yankees are the better team, and the Red Sox have not closed the gap. They are divisional rivals, so that leaves the Sox scrapping for the Wild Card, but even if they win the Wild Card they are not good enough to take the Yanks down in the playoffs.

 

Please list for me the teams that have "realistic prospects of beating the Yankees and winning a world championship".

 

As far as I can tell, the Red Sox and Phillies are very probably the immediate second-tier of teams. Yankees then Phillies/Sox. I admit that they can't beat the Yankees on paper, but nobody can. While beating them on paper would be great, so would some other team knocking the Yankees out and having the Sox role (remember 2007?).

So, you are in agreement with me that the Sox can't beat the yankees. I should take comfort in the fact that no one else can beat the Yankees?

 

How can you both argue that you have been a fan for decades of this team' date=' and then claim that--when they are the envy of all of baseball (minus the Yankees)--you are wasting your time if they can't beat the Yankees on paper?[/quote']What does that mean "the envy of baseball"? We can't beat the Yankees on the field, not on paper.

 

Yes it is. Scutaro is a legitimate MLB SS and is an improvement over what they had last year.

The Sox will be his 4th major league team in 9 major league seasons, and at age 34 he has been a starter for 2 seasons. He's a journeyman.

 

This team has improved and they are really set up well for the future... but we can talk about that in 2013 when you and I are still here talking about the Red Sox (god willing) and they are still one of the very best teams in baseball.

So, you are against a trade to get Gonzalez? What is the most you would give up for him? I realize that you will not commit to anything like that, because you are only comfortable agreeing wiht the FO after they make their moves. When asked for an opinion ahead of time, you come back with some kind of cop out, rather than an answer. What about Cabrera? What would you give up for him?

[Rdsxmbnt]

still waiting

 

How could anyone possibly know this? You really don't think the Red Sox have made ANY competitive offer?

[yankees228]

I still think their best bet is Beltre, if they can wait out Boras and get the price down. It stays with their defense-pitching theme and keeps their young talent intact. I don't think any of those hitters mentioned are attainable--except for Fielder, and he won't last to his middle 30s at his weight--just like his dad.

Actually, the easiest guy to get right now might be Bay. He might take that 4/60 originally offered rather than get stuck with the Mets for effectively less.

 

Trying to match the Yankees is futile. They have too much cable money. The playing field is not level in Baseball. But things happen from year to year, injuries, etc., and that's why the Yankees don't win every year--as they should with their $$ advantage.

 

I don't understand how you say that they should win every year, when the facts prove that's not the case. The team that spends the most money doesn't win every year, and that leads me, and every reasonable person to believe that there is much more to winning than having the most money.

[a700hitter]

Also' date=' a700, re: the ticket prices... I think it is time for this argument to go away. If you don't like the ticket prices stop going to the games.[/quote']Is this the next generation of the "go root for the Yankees" argument? :lol: Pure idiocy.

 

You are grossly overrating the importance of whatever degree of investment you make in this team. Your money could disappear from the face of the Earth tomorrow and the Red Sox would not notice. You are not investing in a local non-profit' date=' you're investing in a huge company that has millions of loyal fans--of which you are one.[/quote'] You sound jealous like many liberals who want to get their hands on other peoples money. I don't expect to get any Christmas cards from the FO, but there are many thousands of fans just like me that have and are willing to spend thousands of their hard earned $ to see the Sox. I don't know what point you are trying to make other than to make your jealousy obvious.

 

As ORS said earlier' date=' there are lots of people who don't have the resources to be able to complain about having to pay more money to be able to go to spring training or to the games. Perhaps some perspective is in order. Likewise, there are 25+ other MLB teams that would LOVE to have the Red Sox resources and current roster. Again, perhaps some perspective is in order.[/quote']Wow, more jealousy. I should just be grateful that I have the money to go watch my team? I have no right to comment that for charging fillet mignon prices and making tons of money from tens of thousands of fans just like me... not the one game a year people like you, that we expect a product commensurate with the price. Hmmm. Interesting perspective.

[BSN07]

I'm with you Ted. I guess we, as the resident "geezers', have seen this act before and are jaded.

 

Look, I don't want to be a buzz kill, but I still believe the Sox FO's primary objective is to make money. To do that, they need to create and feed the perception that they are competitive and "Championship Driven".

 

Typically what smart business men try and do... Not everyone chooses to run their team in the red in an attempt to win championships.

[a700hitter]

I go to rougly 1 game a year. I don't live in the area and don't really have the chance. When I get to go it is great but you need to realize that a huge portion of Sox $$ comes from TV revenue' date=' and that for every night that there are 38,000 people in the stands there are millions watching at home. [/quote']I live in Long Island, NY. Is that further away than you?

 

Almost two-thirds of all of the Red Sox total revenue comes from Gate Receipts. TV and Radio Revenue is included in the other 1/3rd with all of the other sources of revenue.

[Dipre]

I live in Long Island, NY. Is that further away than you?

 

Almost two-thirds of all of the Red Sox total revenue comes from Gate Receipts. TV and Radio Revenue is included in the other 1/3rd with all of the other sources of revenue.

 

Incorrect.

 

At least 40% of the revenue the Red Sox generate on a yearly basis comes from their marketing ploys, only around 20-22% comes from selling tickets. I have read this before several times. I will present you with a source shortly.