Unofficial Adrian Gonzalez thread.

[example1]

The Sox offered Holliday 5 years, 82 Million. 16 Million per year. If he didnt want to take that deal, then go kick rocks.

 

Why not just offer Bay the same deal? Im sure Bay takes that deal, for probably a total amount of 75 Million, as long as the 5th year is there. Im not a huge Bay fan, but why are the Sox just standing with their hands in their pockets?

 

The biggest names in the market are still out there to be had, and it doesnt look like they are competing with anybody at this point.

 

With Cameron there really isn't a spot to play Bay this year.

 

Their payroll is already pushing the payroll tax limit. They will have more room next year, but this year they would be paying a lot to add much more than they have already.

[SCM33]

With Cameron there really isn't a spot to play Bay this year.

 

Their payroll is already pushing the payroll tax limit. They will have more room next year, but this year they would be paying a lot to add much more than they have already.

 

I understand that, I guess I was speaking more along the lines of before they signed Lackey (not that I dont like the signing).

[example1]

I actually like the Lackey signing a lot, especially compared to Holliday.

 

*Holliday would have cost more

*Holliday would have been signed for longer than 5 years

*Boras can f*** himself

*Cameron is a better option than many give him credit for--especially when he is in CF (which he will be)

*Jacoby Ellsbur could be a really good LF, especially on the road.

[Emmz]

I actually like the Lackey signing a lot, especially compared to Holliday.

 

*Holliday would have cost more

*Holliday would have been signed for longer than 5 years

*Boras can f*** himself

*Cameron is a better option than many give him credit for--especially when he is in CF (which he will be)

*Jacoby Ellsbur could be a really good LF, especially on the road.

 

:thumbsup:

 

Lol'd

 

And yeah, I agree somewhat, but I really liked the idea of having Holliday in the three hole, but yeah, Lackey's a great signing IMO. It gives us the best rotation in baseball regardless of what happens to Buchholz.

[Dipre]

At what point would he have made his trade demand public?

 

Hoyer wants Clay plus Kelly or Westmoreland.

 

One of many sources claiming Hoyer asked for a package of Buch, Kelly OR Westmoreland and a couple other prospects.

[jacksonianmarch]

Gonzalez hasnt made a trade demand, but he has expressed interest in Boston should he be traded. Hell, he's the lifeblood of that organization. He's a Mexican-American in a very heavily populated Mexican area. He's a good story, he's a community kind of guy and he's someone who is worth the price of admission. Outside of him, there is no draw to come and watch the games. Hence, from a financial standpoint, it makes no fiscal sense to deal him without getting some sort of major league ready talent back. And from Boston, that MLB ready talent would be Ells and Buch. And if the sox deal those two, they will create other holes that will make the acquisition a bit hollow. Now, as Gonzalez progresses towards FA, at the deadline or next offseason, Hoyer may relent a bit on the MLB ready talent part and suffice with some MiLB players with high upsides.

 

Any deal the sox make this yr for AdGon would be detrimental to their 2010 team. Any deal they make next yr could be very beneficial to their 2011 team. It all changes when the desperation shifts from the tradees to the traders.

[Dipre]

Gonzalez hasnt made a trade demand, but he has expressed interest in Boston should he be traded. Hell, he's the lifeblood of that organization. He's a Mexican-American in a very heavily populated Mexican area. He's a good story, he's a community kind of guy and he's someone who is worth the price of admission. Outside of him, there is no draw to come and watch the games. Hence, from a financial standpoint, it makes no fiscal sense to deal him without getting some sort of major league ready talent back. And from Boston, that MLB ready talent would be Ells and Buch. And if the sox deal those two, they will create other holes that will make the acquisition a bit hollow. Now, as Gonzalez progresses towards FA, at the deadline or next offseason, Hoyer may relent a bit on the MLB ready talent part and suffice with some MiLB players with high upsides.

 

Any deal the sox make this yr for AdGon would be detrimental to their 2010 team. Any deal they make next yr could be very beneficial to their 2011 team. It all changes when the desperation shifts from the tradees to the traders.

 

This actually makes a lot of sense, i'm personally of the opinion that Theo plans to play the waiting game before getting a big bat at/around the TDL, with its current run prevention unit, this team could hold its ground until said big bat becomes available.

[Dojji]

If they plan on waiting, a rental of Konerko or someone like him starts to really make a lot of sense. Let a veteran with a good year or two left play one season for Boston and see how the long term solutions shake out next year.

 

Pity Lance Berkman's unlikely to be on the trade block. He'd be a superb addition to the team.

[riverside sluggers]

Which is why Im thinking its more likely that he is ok with Kotchman at 1st as a fill in.

[Dojji]

*shudder*

 

THAT is NOT okay. Kotchman is not an adequate bat for first base.

[riverside sluggers]

I didnt say I was all for it. How Theo keeps touting "bridging the gap". Maybe theyre willing to stick with Kotchman up until trade deadline as a fill in, before a potential Gonzo deal

 

In that case, Im surprised they didnt garner any interest in Nick Johnson

[Dojji]

Maybe we'll get Max Ramirez and then he or VMart will play regular 1B

[Dipre]

Maybe we'll get Max Ramirez and then he or VMart will play regular 1B

 

Honestly, right now Ramirez might be more of a sure thing offensively than Kotchman, and that is a testament to Kotchman's enormous amount of suck.

[riverside sluggers]

Who would win in a race, Kotchman or Mirabelli?

[SoxSport]

Which is why Im thinking its more likely that he is ok with Kotchman at 1st as a fill in.

 

I doubt their strategy is to wait and see on AdGon--I don't think they want to go into the season with a reduction of offense and 3B unresolved.

 

My back of the envelope analysis shows their best bet is to sign Beltre. As long as they can get him for $10 mil or less and he gets back to 07-08 hitting form after his shoulder injury last year. He's young and should bounce back OK. They will have to look at his shoulder. They will also have to play a waiting game with Boras, to get the price down. They are fortunate their competition doesn't involve the NY teams. That increases the chance Boras will have to come down to reality in price.

 

I view the Lackey/Cameron signings as a brilliant move by Epstein to upgrade pitching and defense--and give them an advantage in pitching. I think he recognizes that he can't get AdGon without negating some of that--whether he does a trade now or during the season. I think they will resolve the 3B issue soon, and a lot of the talk is just posturing to keep their leverage.

[Palodios]

Think about it, just because the sox signed lackey/scutaro/cameron doesnt mean they're still not planning on having a bridge year. They appeased the fans by getting good new talent, but at the same time if a team signs Bay, they still get 2 first round picks, and the extra supplementals to restock the system. By adding Lackey, they gave the rotation another veteran reliable pitcher so they don't have to rush up another young arm and risk yet another bad situation like bowden, tazawa, or buchholz.

 

In the 2010 offseason, Ortiz, Lowell and Lugo, VMart, Becket come off the books, meaning a ton of money, especially considering the low values of the first three. There's a pile of aces coming up for FA in 2010, so Becket may not be as expensive/hard to replace as he could have been. Maybe they're planning on Max being the catcher of the future? It really makes sense that it is a rebuilding year, which is why it seems more and more like they won't want to be getting rid of Ells or Buch.

[example1]

I view the Lackey/Cameron signings as a brilliant move by Epstein to upgrade pitching and defense--and give them an advantage in pitching. I think he recognizes that he can't get AdGon without negating some of that.

 

Lackey and Cameron were both pretty good moves for this FO. Obviously there's more to like in Lackey than Cameron, as Cameron is older and has less impact. At the same time, I think there's quite a bit to the idea that it is all about run differential and that the Sox may have prevented as many runs as they lost via-Bay.

 

In an interview the other day on WEEI Francona said that he hadn't decided yet who would be playing CF. That's not a ringing endorsement of Ellsbury, which must be disappointing to him. However, when Ellsbury played LF in the past he was well above average according to the numbers... bordering on elite.

 

I think a good argument could be made that Ellsbury is a lot like Carl Crawford in LF. Their per-162 g numbers are similar, with crawford having more power, but Ellsbury having better OBP skills (Ellsbury's .355 matched Crawford's career high and I think we all believe Ellsbury can do better than .355). They both have elite speed.

 

The Lackey and Cameron moves also screw over Boras and I can't even say how happy I am that this is the case. Unnecessary preoccupation? Perhaps, but the past few years the equation for the Sox ability to sign FAs has been built around Yankee interest (inevitable, a part of life) and whether Boras was the agent or not (a self-important agent). Ellsbury is a Boras client and Boras probably doesn't love that not only have the Sox passed over the guy he thought they would be forced to sign after Teixeira went off the market (Holliday) but they've replaced him with cost-controlled Ellsbury who now looks more like a LF than an elite CF. Great. :thumbsup:

 

The Red Sox will get their elite bat. I imagine they have their sights on anyone from the group of Adrian Gonzalez, Hanley Ramrez, Prince Fielder, Albert Pujols and Joe Mauer. Depending on which player they pursue, it may take a longer time, perhaps even beyond 2010's deadline. That's okay. I think they should wait it out.

[Dojji]

And don't forget that with Reddick, Kalish, Exposito, Anderson and Rizzo, we have some offensive prospects of our own with large upside. We might wind up not really needing to go outside the org to find power bats -- except for maybe at SS and 3B, where we seem to be fairly light right now -- our best 3B prospecty was the uninspiring Jorge Jimemez, and he was just seized in the Rule V draft.

[silvercreekcc2006]

Mauer won't leave MN. They will keep him there for life. They need a homeboy draw with the new field. Too bad Bay is bye.

[Palodios]

 

The Red Sox will get their elite bat. I imagine they have their sights on anyone from the group of Adrian Gonzalez, Hanley Ramrez, Prince Fielder, Albert Pujols and Joe Mauer. Depending on which player they pursue, it may take a longer time, perhaps even beyond 2010's deadline. That's okay. I think they should wait it out.

 

 

A-gon and Mauer are possibilities at the deadline, but the price for those other guys would be wayyy too high.

[a700hitter]

The Red Sox will get their elite bat. I imagine they have their sights on anyone from the group of Adrian Gonzalez' date=' Hanley Ramrez, Prince Fielder, Albert Pujols and Joe Mauer. Depending on which player they pursue, it may take a longer time, perhaps even beyond 2010's deadline. That's okay. I think they should wait it out.[/quote']It may be okay from a business standpoint, but as fans let's not kid ourselves. The team as currently constructed, with Kotchman and the 37 year old Cameron replacing Lowell and Bay, cannot beat the Yankees. Last off season the Yankees made moves that re-established their dominance over the Sox, and this off season the Sox made moves that have not closed the gap. This Red Sox lineup will scare no one, and I expect that it's run production will be very inconsistent. Unless Ortiz can maintain the pace he hit in the after june of last year, we have no legitimate power hitter. Victor Martinez, Youkilis and Drew are excellent hitters, but not big power guys. Drew is always an injury risk with two bad shoulders and an injured back. Ellsbury has yet to establish himself as a consistent hitter. Pedroia took a big step back in 2009 for his 2008 insane year. his performance last season may be he level. Scutaro is a career utility guy. If they wait until next year to land a big bat, he will probably be replacing Ortiz. By 2011 , the health-challenged Drew will be 35 years old. Adding a big bat in 2011, to replace Ortiz IMO wouldn't bring the team to a much higher level. As a fan, I'm not happy with a team that has no realistic prospects of beating the Yankees and winning a world championship. It may be okay for you, but I view it as treading water and wasting my time for the next two seasons unless they add another bat before opening day. With a lineup this thin, if there are just a couple of injuries, I think this team could really tank.

 

For fans that pay the highest ticket prices in baseball, watching a journeyman like Scutaro man the most important defensive position on the field and Kotchman play a traditional power position is not acceptable. I am a big believer in pitching and defense. It was my hope that last offseason that they would make moves to improve their pitching. I like the Lackey move, but this offense is not going to be enough.

[jacksonianmarch]

The sox should be in on AdGon. I doubt Mauer happens. I doubt Pujols happens. Both are staying in their respective cities or coming to NY IMO. There is no way we let them get to the cash conscious Theo

[Dojji]

We're in on Adgon, but we should not allow ourselves to be put over a barrel, especially if we're anything but 100% completely positive that we can resign him at market rates or below. Two years of Adgon isn't worth 4 years of buchholz' upside, much less 6 years of Westmoreland, Kelly and Anderson.

[CoachC.]

The sox should be in on AdGon. I doubt Mauer happens. I doubt Pujols happens. Both are staying in their respective cities or coming to NY IMO. There is no way we let them get to the cash conscious Theo

 

And play Pujols where?

[jacksonianmarch]

LF

[a700hitter]

We're in on Adgon' date=' but we should not allow ourselves to be put over a barrel, especially if we're anything but 100% completely positive that we can resign him at market rates or below. Two years of Adgon isn't worth 4 years of buchholz' upside, much less 6 years of Westmoreland, Kelly and Anderson.[/quote']Westmoreland is 3 years away at a minimum, more realistically he 's 4 years away from being a productive major league starter. The others are probably 3 years away from being above average major leaguers. Anderson looked like s*** all of last year. having trouble adjusting in the minors is not a good sign for major league success. Are we supposed to wait three years to compete with the Yankees?

[Dojji]

We've had to wait a whole heck of a lot longer than that in the past. And we don't need specifically Adgon to compete with the Yankees. Going after a second-tier guy like Paul Konerko would complete the offseason fine and leave us with a talent-rich upper minors, putting us in a good position to make moves as the situation demands during the season.

 

You can't argue that the Sox aren't serious about getting Adgon with the prices they've put on the table. Hoyer keeps moving the goalposts. If Hoyer won't bite, then he just won't bite and you move on from there.

[a700hitter]

The sox should be in on AdGon. I doubt Mauer happens. I doubt Pujols happens. Both are staying in their respective cities or coming to NY IMO. There is no way we let them get to the cash conscious Theo

Pujols is a pipe dream, and Mauer will be a yankee target to replace a 39 year old Posada. I don't think there is much of a chance either of them end up in a Red Sox uniform. They need to pull the trigger on Adrian Gonzalez. I think they are wrong if they think that the asking price for AG will go down at the trading deadline. It is just as likely to go up if he is tearing up the league.

[SoxSport]

I still think their best bet is Beltre, if they can wait out Boras and get the price down. It stays with their defense-pitching theme and keeps their young talent intact. I don't think any of those hitters mentioned are attainable--except for Fielder, and he won't last to his middle 30s at his weight--just like his dad.

Actually, the easiest guy to get right now might be Bay. He might take that 4/60 originally offered rather than get stuck with the Mets for effectively less.

 

Trying to match the Yankees is futile. They have too much cable money. The playing field is not level in Baseball. But things happen from year to year, injuries, etc., and that's why the Yankees don't win every year--as they should with their $$ advantage.

[Dojji]

Even if that's true, they don't need specifically Gonzalez. Frankly I'd rather they go after Hanley because as a shortstop with unprecedented level of offensive talent, it's easier to justify a large return in talent than it is for yet another LHH slugging 1B.

 

He's also a better fit for the Fens, and the upgrade over Scutaro would be much more beneficial than the upgrade of Adgon over Youkilis -- or even Adgon over Kotchman for that matter. A rental like Konerko wouldn't add that much to the price tag and would provide average to above average production at first base and a full replacement of Lowell's lost production. Kalish and Doubront gets that part done.

 

I'm also absolutely positive that the Marlins are very interested in players like Casey Kelly and Ryan Westmoreland and even more sure that you can load the deal with big league ready makeweights San Diego would be reluctant to take on. the only real difficulty dealing with Florida is that they'd be less interested in Buchholz because of the arb years we've already blown.