Boston Celtics 2009-2010 Thread

[Spudboy]

LOl.

[Keeper]

Jordan played when hand checking was allowed, so that pretty much nullifies the "complicated defense" argument. Which, by the way, is a specious argument because it's not provable.

 

Also, if players are marginally bigger and faster than they were when Jordan played, it should be noted that the talent has been diluted because of expansion teams, so that pretty much nullifies that argument as well.

 

And Jordan was a much better shooter than Kobe, in terms of shot selection. Kobe forces so many shots it's not even funny. MJ also had a quicker first step, was faster in the open court, more explosive to the rim, and had way more hang time.

 

Kobe is a great defender in his own right, but this one isn't even close. MJ could defend just as well as Kobe and was much better at getting in the passing lanes. He and Pippen had a sixth sense for anticipation.

 

I won't touch the better leader argument. That's just opinion. The only thing I'll say is the Bulls were MJ's team from day one. The Lakers were Shaq's team for a long time.

 

Yes, MJ had Pippen. Did he ever have a center as good as Shaq or Bynum? MJ was the GOAT, IMO. Like example said, Kobe may not even be the greatest Laker of all time.

 

And as far as performing on the big stage in the playoffs, I cannot take the Kobe-MJ comparisons seriously.

[See Red]

You make some great points' date=' but its funny how you argue that I'm wrong about things while pointing out that the margins actually were different in Jordans favor. Just sayin'. If Jordan actually averaged more assists and rebounds and points and steals then don't argue that he didn't by saying that he only [i']barely[/i] did.

 

My stance all along has been that statistics don't tell the entire story, has it not? That stance hasn't wavered. And again, if they did tell the entire story, Wilt was by far the greatest player ever to lace 'em up. My point, in mentioning those numbers, is that even for those who use numbers to argue that Jordan was by and large better than Kobe was, even the statistics don't reflect it. People like to throw out the shooting percentage and suggest Jordan was a better shooter, but their points per attempt are damn near the same. Their PPG in games in which they attempted 20+ shots is pretty much identical.

 

Again, different players, different circumstances, and different eras, regardless of how close together those eras were.

 

 

 

 

Yeah' date=' I call Jordan a better leader. His teams just won. All talking aside. And all the revisionist history in the world won't write away the fact that people who watched those teams knew that Jordan was the reason they won. Rodman and Pippen were great pieces, but the unworldly talent that Jordan had allowed him to average 30 points per-game and carry his teams, every year. Likewise, Ron Artest is widely seen as one of the best defenders in the league and Gasol (and Shaq) were two of the best centers at their times.[/quote']

 

Kobe's teams "just win", it's the reason he's played 198 playoff games and has accomplished more at the age of 31 than any player ever. The Lakers are at the bottom of the Western Conference without Kobe -- they have Gasol, sure, but Artest doesn't fit the offense and has lost a step defensively, Odom vanishes, Bynum is often injured and it very much showed in these Finals, Derek Fisher's one of the worst starting PG's in the League, and they have a s***** bench. Kobe showed his leadership in this NBA Finals. He would have won the Finals MVP regardless of whether or not the Lakers won or lost and it'd have been damn near unanimous.

 

Ron Artest isn't as versatile defensively as Kobe is. Artest can't defend guards, so Kobe often defends the oppositions best player. Pippen could defend various positions, and as I mentioned before, he usually defended the oppositions best player. Pippen was the better defender of the two, and may have been the better leader of the two. Let's compare some greats and how their teams managed in their first season after they retired...

 

Again, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without Jordan and finish second in the East in the one full season he missed. They won 57 games the year before with him. You have to have a lot of talent to win 55 games. It's not like Jordan was carrying bad teams to the Finals, he had a lot of good players around him. He actually never recorded a winning record without Scottie Pippen. Hell, Kobe won, like, 47 games in the Western Conference with Lamar Odom and nobody else.

 

I call him a better shooter because he didn't take shots he couldn't make. Taking 3 pointers is a choice' date=' not a necessity, and it hasn't led to more points or wins for Kobe's team so the decision making is questionable.[/quote']

 

Everybody understands that 3-pointers are lower percentage shots, but if you can make them at a decent clip, you come out even or ahead. Kobe comes out even. Their points per attempt is damn near the same, so Jordan is no more of an efficient shooter than Kobe is.

 

Kobe entering the league at 18 wasn't forced on him. It was something he chose to do. Jordan won a national championship in college' date=' which Kobe could have done if he didn't go to the NBA. It was Kobe's choice.[/quote']

 

We're not arguing whether 19 year old Kobe is better than 30 year old Jordan, so I think, when we're looking at career numbers, it's fair to throw out the two years it took Kobe to adjust to the NBA from High School. We're talking about Jordan in his best years vs. Kobe in his best years.

 

It's not like the early 00's where everybody and their mother was jumping from High School to the pros. Kobe was the second player in twenty years to make the jump (after Garnett). You have to expect an adjustment period for Kobe entering the league.

 

As for defense' date=' I think it is something that Jordan came into the league doing better than Kobe and which Kobe really had to work at. Don't get me wrong, Kobe is an excellent defender but how do you account for their significant difference in steals over the years? Jordan led the league 3 times. Not something that happens by accident.[/quote']

 

Kobe came into the league as an 18 year old, with the body of... an 18 year old. Jordan came into the league as a 21 year old, a little better equipped to compete against NBA athletes. Kobe wasn't a freak of nature like Lebron, so yeah, there was going to be an adjustment period for him coming into the league. But Jordan made his first NBA Defensive team in his fourth year, Kobe also made it in his fourth year. The difference is Jordan had three years of college for a premiere program, paying under Dean Smith.

 

In regards to steals, it's not a tell-all stat. Allen Iverson always lead the league in steals and he was a defensive liability.

 

As for the players being bigger, faster and better I think I would dispute that, and the numbers seem to back me up.

 

1993-94: Average height: 6'7.34 Average weight: 221.68

2007-2008: Average height: 6'6.98 Average weight: 221.00

 

http://www.nba.com/news/survey_height_2007.html

http://www.nba.com/news/survey_2004.html

 

I don't have 2009-10 in front of me, but 07-08 is close enough in my book.

 

That's really an argument you want to make? You really should pick your battles because sports science, nutrition, and fitness have improved ten-fold. Just look at pictures of the guys in the two lineups you posted.

 

http://lolabrigada.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/ewing.jpghttp://static.thehollywoodgossip.com/images/gallery/dwight-howard-shirtless.jpg

 

http://donchavez.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/04/bird.jpghttp://www.jumpingadvantage.com/Lebron/Lebron-James-Dunking2.jpg

 

Okay... that one's not fair. But you've got 7'6" Chinese All-Stars and 5'9" guys winning dunk contests for more than just being able to dunk. The league is full of athletic freaks and all it does is make the court smaller.

 

But the 2010 "Dream Team" would wipe the floor with the original.

 

And that original dream team was all the best players in the league. You're list leaves off guys like Pau Gasol, Manu Ginobli, Yao Ming, Dirk Nowitzki, Tim Duncan, Steve Nash, and Tony Parker.

 

Keeper, how much expansion has occured in the league since Jordan retired? How is the talent more diluted? The 90's is when the league's talent was the most watered down, the influx of international players has helped settle that.

[example1]

There are plenty of arguments about why Jordan was better. Few about why Kobe was better, and it sounds like the best you have is that the competition he plays against is better, mostly because they have more shiny muscles.

 

Subjectively, Jordan was the more dominant, better all around player and most people who saw them both agree. You apparently don't agree, and assuming that you are old enough to have watched both extensively I think your opinion is as valid as mine.

 

I commend you for your obvious basketball knowledge but I think your arguments are a stretch. I am fresh from watching Kobe nearly choke-away the most important game of his career. It wasn't just that he didn't play well, he really sucked. I don't think Kobe is even the best Laker of all time so I'm not going to be convinced that he's the best player of all time.

 

You keep going back to the argument that if stats are to be compared between them then Wilt Chamberlain is the best of all time because his stats were better than Jordan's. That's like saying that because there are generational differences, comparing Ken Griffey Jr. and Albert Pujols is as invalid as comparing Ty Cobb and Albert Pujols. The stats aren't completely valid to compare across eras, but when the eras are close enough that there are common players who span both generations, and when the same coach is able to coach both players, I think that argument becomes absurd. Furthermore, I don't even need the common players argument. Jordan and Kobe played at the same time for a few years.

 

Do you really think that Kareem would have been shut down against Dwight Howard, or that Magic Johnson would have been overwhelmed by Chris Paul? I think all those player are really good, no matter what generation we're talking about. They are the best players in the world at their time, that's about all that could be asked about them at the time.

[YanksHater213]

Any idiot that argues Kobe over Jordan is completely, 100%, a joke.

 

I'm not going to get into this argument because it is not worth anyone's time to sit here and argue about semantics.

[Keeper]

My stance all along has been that statistics don't tell the entire story' date=' has it not? People like to throw out the shooting percentage and suggest Jordan was a better shooter, but their points per attempt are damn near the same. Their PPG in games in which they attempted 20+ shots is pretty much identical.[/quote']

 

Agreed, statistics don't tell the whole story. Refer to what I said above about Jordan's speed, explosiveness, and hang time versus Kobe's.

 

Jordan's shooting percentage is better than Kobe's because his shot selection was better than Kobe's. Kobe took some ridiculously poor shots in the Finals, and frankly he looked silly taking them. There are buzzer beaters, and then there are stupid shots. And Kobe has taken a lot of stupid shots.

 

You also keep saying Kobe's FG suffers because he shoots so many 3s. Why does he shoot so many 3s? Have you ever asked yourself that? Because he can't get to the hoop like MJ could. He can't create like MJ could, so he lives behind the arc sometimes and puts up a lot of prayers.

 

Again' date=' the Bulls managed to win 55 games without Jordan and finish second in the East in the one full season he missed. They won 57 games the year before with him. You have to have a lot of talent to win 55 games. It's not like Jordan was carrying bad teams to the Finals, he had a lot of good players around him.[/quote']

 

Did they win any championships while MJ was gone? Did they get to the Finals while MJ was gone? Because that's all that really matters.

 

He actually never recorded a winning record without Scottie Pippen. Hell' date=' Kobe won, like, 47 games in the Western Conference with Lamar Odom and nobody else.[/quote']

 

That's misleading. Jordan came into the league in the 1984-85 season. Pippen came into the league in the 1987-88 season. Jordan missed almost all of his 2nd season (played in only 18 games, started in 7). He only played 2 seasons without Pippen. The best players he played with sans Pippen were Orlando Woolridge, Quintin Dailey, Charles Oakley, and John Paxson. And he never even had all of those players together. Guess he wasn't a good enough leader to win with those guys.

 

In regards to steals' date=' it's not a tell-all stat. Allen Iverson always lead the league in steals and he was a defensive liability.[/quote']

 

Your point? Jordan isn't Allen Iverson.

 

But the 2010 "Dream Team" would wipe the floor with the original.

 

And that original dream team was all the best players in the league. You're list leaves off guys like Pau Gasol, Manu Ginobli, Yao Ming, Dirk Nowitzki, Tim Duncan, Steve Nash, and Tony Parker.

 

First of all, no. Like a thousand time no.

 

Second of all, you are aware that the Dream Team's roster only consisted of U.S. players, right?

 

You're saying that a 2010 Dream Team would "wipe the floor" with a team that had Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, John Stockton, Karl Malone, Clyde Drexler, Charles Barkley, David Robinson, and Patrick Ewing all in their prime? Really? (For the record, I'm leaving Magic and Bird out because they were not in their prime.)

 

Keeper' date=' how much expansion has occured in the league since Jordan retired? How is the talent more diluted? The 90's is when the league's talent was the most watered down, the influx of international players has helped settle that.[/quote']

 

I checked. The Charlotte Bobcats are the only expansion team added to the NBA since Jordan retired, so I was mistaken. But I really don't see how the 90s were more watered down than right now. Maybe it just seemed that way because the Bulls and the Rockets (to an extent) had dynasties.

[See Red]

Agreed' date=' statistics don't tell the whole story. Refer to what I said above about Jordan's speed, explosiveness, and hang time versus Kobe's.[/quote']

 

Young Kobe was just as athletic as Jordan. The difference is that being an athletic freak in todays NBA doesn't mean as much as it did in the late 80's, early 90's. Remember Jonathan Bender? He could dunk from the free throw line too...

 

Jordan's shooting percentage is better than Kobe's because his shot selection was better than Kobe's. Kobe took some ridiculously poor shots in the Finals, and frankly he looked silly taking them. There are buzzer beaters, and then there are stupid shots. And Kobe has taken a lot of stupid shots.

 

You also keep saying Kobe's FG suffers because he shoots so many 3s. Why does he shoot so many 3s? Have you ever asked yourself that? Because he can't get to the hoop like MJ could. He can't create like MJ could, so he lives behind the arc sometimes and puts up a lot of prayers.

 

He shoots threes because he makes them at a good percentage and makes him even more multi-dimensional. Even with his "terrible shot selection", his points per FG attempt suggests he's just about as efficient, regardless of whether he's taking good shots or bad. So if Kobe is taking stupid, tougher shots, and scoring as efficiently as Jordan, doesn't that, physically at least, make Kobe the better shooter?

 

And Kobe can create as well as anybody. When he drives to the hoop, sets his feet, and fades away... that shot isn't defendable because he can shoot with a hand in his face. You're only hope is that he's off that night. And if you play him for that shot, he's going to the hoop and typically either finishing or heading to the line.

 

Again, Kobe faces more complex defenses and stronger, more athletic players where unless you're an athletic freak like D-Wade or Lebron (which admittedly, Kobe isn't so much anymore as he used to be, but the rest of his game is considerably more polished) it's not easy making your living by getting to the basketball.

 

How have defenses gotten more complex? The zone defense was outlawed in the NBA from, like, 1943 to 2002. Jordan still faced them, but they had to be somewhat disguised to the point where it limited their effectiveness. And you didn't see Jordan get double teamed without possession of the ball like you see in todays NBA.

 

Did they win any championships while MJ was gone? Did they get to the Finals while MJ was gone? Because that's all that really matters.

 

That's completely beside the point. The point is that those Bulls teams had loads of talent, and would've been a good team even without Jordan. People like to point to those six rings, but nobody likes to acknowledge that those teams were pretty loaded.

 

That's misleading. Jordan came into the league in the 1984-85 season. Pippen came into the league in the 1987-88 season. Jordan missed almost all of his 2nd season (played in only 18 games' date=' started in 7). He only played 2 seasons without Pippen. The best players he played with sans Pippen were Orlando Woolridge, Quintin Dailey, Charles Oakley, and John Paxson. And he never even had all of those players together. Guess he wasn't a good enough leader to win with those guys. [/quote']

 

You're right, it probably is unfair. But the only difference between those two teams was a rookie Scottie Pippen.

 

Your point? Jordan isn't Allen Iverson.

 

That steals is a completely misleading stat.

 

 

 

First of all, no. Like a thousand time no.

 

Second of all, you are aware that the Dream Team's roster only consisted of U.S. players, right?

 

You're saying that a 2010 Dream Team would "wipe the floor" with a team that had Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, John Stockton, Karl Malone, Clyde Drexler, Charles Barkley, David Robinson, and Patrick Ewing all in their prime? Really? (For the record, I'm leaving Magic and Bird out because they were not in their prime.)

 

Yes I'm well aware of that. My point is that he showed two Dream Team rosters and said the talent in the League is comparable between the eras based on that. But in doing that he's leaving off all of the great international players that exist in the game today and didn't back in the early 90's... some of the best players in the league... Pau Gasol, Tim Duncan, Dirk Nowitzki, Manu Ginobli, Steve Nash, Tony Parker, etc.

 

And yes, there's no contest between the players of today and the players of yesterday. There's no equalizer for the athleticism that exists in the league today.

 

 

I checked. The Charlotte Bobcats are the only expansion team added to the NBA since Jordan retired' date=' so I was mistaken. But I really don't see how the 90s were more watered down than right now. Maybe it just seemed that way because the Bulls and the Rockets (to an extent) had dynasties.[/quote']

 

Because there was the same amount of teams, but without the influx of international players, who make up a a pretty good chunk of NBA rosters. Picture todays NBA without international players... that's a lot of talent gone, and somebody has to fill those minutes.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

They didn't control the boards. Everything is determined by possession of the ball.

 

You can thank Danny Ainge for that, for signing both Rasheed AND Glen Davis to be the team's backup bigs. That sealed our rebounding fate for the season.

 

At least Rasheed Wallace can play good post defense and hit perimeter shots. In the three seasons Davis has been on this team I still can't figure out why he's here or what exactly he's good for, other than making funny faces and making idiot Boston fans fall in love with him for displaying such grit and emotion.

[italstallianion]

Boston Celtics take Avery Bradley from Texas.

[yeszir]

Any news on this Bradley kid? Can me create a new big 3 and include him?

[yeszir]

For the record, I've never seen such an in depth argument about basketball here I'm entertained.

[italstallianion]

Any news on this Bradley kid? Can me create a new big 3 and include him?

 

 

 

A consistent scorer off the bench would certainly improve the Celtics, and Texas combo guard Avery Bradley has the potential to fill that role. Bradley lacks prototypical size for a shooting guard or the ability to get to the rim like a point guard, but he's a consistent perimeter shooter and a fierce defender. --

 

 

This was on the Yahoo pick by pick analysis.

[WhiskeyBreath]

Boston drafted Luke Harangody? http://i42.tinypic.com/298zyw.gif Scal

[msubulldogs21]

Boston drafted Luke Harangody? http://i42.tinypic.com/298zyw.gif Scal

 

I know you're joking, but Scal was gone regardless of who we drafted.

[italstallianion]

I don't know, Scalabrine was a fan favourite. Who else on the 2010 team could the Boston fans relate to?

[Keeper]

Boston drafted Luke Harangody? http://i42.tinypic.com/298zyw.gif Scal

 

[Palodios]

I don't know' date=' Scalabrine was a fan favourite. Who else on the 2010 team could the Boston fans relate to?[/quote']

 

Haha, I've always said that Scal fits the big token irshman role on the team. Seriously, how many other 6-9 gingers have you seen in the nba?

[Spudboy]

Joe Klein comes to mind.

[Flynnatic10]

Haha' date=' I've always said that Scal fits the big token irshman role on the team. Seriously, how many other 6-9 gingers have you seen in the nba?[/quote']

 

well, this guy is 7 foot 1, but close enough

 

Robert Swift

http://i490.photobucket.com/albums/rr268/arsonista24/robert-swift.jpg

[Dojji]

Holy crap, it's a walking sistine chapel!

[italstallianion]

That's what I thought about the Birdman.

[WhiskeyBreath]

Looks like Pierce is opting out.

[TedWilliams101]

Looks like Pierce is opting out.

 

Ugh, tough spot. Either they over pay to keep him or let him walk, neither great scenarios.

[yeszir]

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2010/06/30/pierce_opts_out_of_final_year/

 

He opted out. I want him to retire a Celtic.

[Palodios]

I bet he just wants a long term contract. If not, I think its better to start rebuilding this team sooner rather than later.

[Palodios]

Actually, if they Wallace retires, and they renounce their free agents, they will have room for a max contract. They're not likely to get one of the big players, but its an interesting possibility.

[bsox0407]

Rivers says he is coming back.

[TheMino007]

With Rivers back I think they are going the route of brining back Pierce and Allen. At this point, even though I don't want it, if the C's want to win its their only option, bring both guys back. Ideally 2 year deals would be great so Ray, PP, and KG can all leave in 2 years, but that won't happen. Pierce will want 4 years and Ray will want 3. Team still has a lot of holes to fill, who is your starting center? Perk is out till Feb., who is Brad Miller the guy? Is TA coming back, Nate?

[WhiskeyBreath]

I think you are right. They probly sign Pierce and Allen and give it one more go. It's going to be harder to get back to the Finals this upcoming year so I really don't know if this will be the best move for the team longterm.

 

Brad Miller is ok and it's always nice to add a veteran big man but I'm not a huge fan of his defense. Tommy Heinsohn is going to hate it if Miller signs with Boston haha.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

I'd rather have Tony Allen be the starting SG than bring Ray back. And seriously... Brad Miller? God help us. As if we weren't bad enough on the boards. He can't defend either.