Bay vs. Holliday

[BSN07]

If the Mets dont land Holliday then I think Bay is gone. I have said all along that someone will go a 5th yr on Bay. If not Boston' date=' then someone. I do think that Theo will go that extra yr, eventually. But when you throw Minaya into the ring with a fistful of cash and a skull full of air, then anything can happen.[/quote']

 

I already think Bay is gone. I believe someone will offer him 5 years and the Red Sox will not.

 

The Sox will have Holliday or a short term stop gap in LF next year IMO.

[jacksonianmarch]

We'll see on Holliday. My guess is that Boras holds out as long as he can, probably into early to mid January before he gets the right offer. He really is a genius negotiator. He knows that teams initially stay fiscally responsible, but as a team's offseason plan goes in the shitter, they get more desperate and are finally willing to come close to asking price for his prime FA. I have a feeling Holliday lands with a team that none of us are thinking about here. A team that may clear some payroll in the early part of the trading season only to use that space up on Holliday. Watch the Tigers land him, that'd be funny.

[Gom]

I respectfully disagree. I think that there are simply many teams that just don't have the money. There is no team willing to make that huge splash. I think that teams will wait....and wait....and wait. I think you will see a lot of players signed in the last two to three weeks of the off-season ala Abreu last year. I would be surprised if a free agent broke 100 million this year. Think about this for a minute...Boras is saying that he thinks Damon should start at Abreu's numbers, 19 mil for 2 years. Let's say he gets it. That would be approximately a 25% DECREASE from what he made last year.

 

I think this off-season centers around Lackey. The Red Sox are in the position to do the most damage this year. With a bevy of young talent, signing Lackey would allow them to make a huge splash for a hitter in a deal like Gonzalez or even Halladay. A lineup with AG-Youk-PaPED would be fearsome. A rotation of Halladay-Beckett-Lester-Lackey would be devastating.

 

In my opinion Lackey is the key.

[TheMino007]

Lackey doesn't want to sign with the Red Sox, he has said he doesn't like playing in Fenway Park and I think he wants to go somewhere were he can be the staff ace. I think he stays on the West Coast, in the AL West, or somewhere in his home state of Texas, maybe the Rangers. Adrian Gonzalez isn't going anywhere because the Padres don't have to trade him, the guy doesn't even make 5 mill a year and I think he'll only make like 7 mill in 2011. Prince Fielder won't get trade and I think he'll ultimately end up in free agency in the 2010 offseaon. Miguel Cabrera, besides Hallday, is the realest possibility. I would rather have the Sox just swallow $ and take on a big contract like Magglio Ordonez rather than give up bigger amounts of prospects in order to get Miggy.

[Imperial59]

We'll see on Holliday. My guess is that Boras holds out as long as he can' date=' probably into early to mid January before he gets the right offer. He really is a genius negotiator. He knows that teams initially stay fiscally responsible, but as a team's offseason plan goes in the shitter, they get more desperate and are finally willing to come close to asking price for his prime FA. I have a feeling Holliday lands with a team that none of us are thinking about here. A team that may clear some payroll in the early part of the trading season only to use that space up on Holliday. Watch the Tigers land him, that'd be funny.[/quote']

 

Not that genius if virtually everyone on this site understand the same theory.

[Lester82]

The Red Sox are getting Bay or Holliday... I know Yankee fans would love to see Jeremy Hermida starting in LF next year, but Bay or Holliday is a Red Sox.

[Lester82]

And forget the Mets. I can see those losers not getting anyone, I still think that Bernie Madoff will effect the Mets finances for at least one offseason.

[26 to 6]

I disagree, I think the Mets will absolutely get one of the two. With their horrid season this past year Omar and the Wilpons will be throwing money at everyone.

[Dipre]

I disagree' date=' I think the Mets will absolutely get one of the two. With their horrid season this past year Omar and the Wilpons will be throwing money at everyone.[/quote']

 

Good luck convincing them to go play for a near-contender in Citi Field.

[BSN07]

The Red Sox are getting Bay or Holliday... I know Yankee fans would love to see Jeremy Hermida starting in LF next year' date=' but Bay or Holliday is a Red Sox.[/quote']

 

If it comes down to having to give Bay 5+ yrs I'd be all on board for letting Hermida have a go in LF.

 

It's not a secret, I don't care that much for Bay. Not saying I dislike him or would put up a stink if he was brought back, but I would much rather have Holliday in LF. And if both players price themselves out of Boston, then I think there could be worse options then Hermida.

 

But I do think one will end up in Boston and one will end up with the Mets.

[rhet]

Holliday lost the playoffs for the Cards by trying to style an easy fly ball hit right to him.

 

Give me the guy who makes the plays he's supposed to make, gets on base at a high rate, and is a reliable 35+/100+ bat.

[Dipre]

Holliday lost the playoffs for the Cards by trying to style an easy fly ball hit right to him.

 

Give me the guy who makes the plays he's supposed to make, gets on base at a high rate, and is a reliable 35+/100+ bat.

 

*Sigh*

 

You're using a mistake in the playoffs as your argument to attack Holliday?

 

Also, have you seen Bay pay LF outside of Fenway?

 

Also, RBI? Really?

 

Also, reliable 35+ bat? He has cracked 35 homers exactly twice in his career.

 

No one would be dissapointed if Bay came back, but trying to show Bay as a better ballplayer than Holliday is an exercise in futility. Stop trying.

[rhet]

*Sigh*

 

You're using a mistake in the playoffs as your argument to attack Holliday?

 

Also, have you seen Bay pay LF outside of Fenway?

 

Also, RBI? Really?

 

Also, reliable 35+ bat? He has cracked 35 homers exactly twice in his career.

 

No one would be dissapointed if Bay came back, but trying to show Bay as a better ballplayer than Holliday is an exercise in futility. Stop trying.

 

All I know is what I see. Bay produced offensively, made all the plays he was supposed to make, and was one of the two most valuable players on this team. Conversely, Holliday sucked in the AL and blew the playoffs for his team by hot-dogging it in the field.

[Dipre]

All I know is what I see. Bay produced offensively' date=' made all the plays he was supposed to make, and was one of the two most valuable players on this team. Conversely, Holliday sucked in the AL and blew the playoffs for his team by hot-dogging it in the field.[/quote']

 

Bay's stellar performance this year in the playoffs:

 

You failed to mention it.

 

Again, you can take the 80 game in the AL sample size to try and judge Holliday as a ballplayer, but if you don't look deeper into the numbers and can't use another argument than "What i know is what i see" then i don't know what to tell you.

 

For the record, with his suck in Oakland included, Holliday has a .880 OPS against AL pitching in 163 games, which is not a universe of difference compared to Bay's .905 OPS from 2008 and 2009 with the Sox. I'm going to add interleague numbers to that shortly.

[rhet]

Bay's stellar performance this year in the playoffs:

 

You failed to mention it.

 

Again, you can take the 80 game in the AL sample size to try and judge Holliday as a ballplayer, but if you don't look deeper into the numbers and can't use another argument than "What i know is what i see" then i don't know what to tell you.

 

If you agree he was one of the two most valuable players on the Sox this past season, then I don't see what your argument is. The guy can play, and is a better risk for us than Holliday in my opinion.

[Dipre]

If you agree he was one of the two most valuable players on the Sox this past season' date=' then I don't see what your argument is. The guy can play, and is a better risk for us than Holliday in my opinion.[/quote']

 

He would be if his defense wasn't so horrible.

 

His defensive woes are not propaganda. He'll be manning the DH spot by 2012.

 

By the way, the two most valuable players for the Sox were Youk and Lester.

 

This is not an attempt at bashing Bay, but a lot of people overlook the fact that he absolutely disappeared for nearly 2 months after his hot start. That's what scares me so much about him.

[rhet]

What's the best way to measure Holliday's defense? How many hot dog plays have blown playoff games?

[Dipre]

What's the best way to measure Holliday's defense? How many hot dog plays have blown playoff games?

 

Well that's a pretty solid stat/observation.

 

Are you for real?

[rhet]

Well that's a pretty solid stat/observation.

 

Are you for real?

 

It's all about wins, Dipre.

Like any stat, especially on defense, use UZR as a guide, not a Bible.

[Dipre]

It's all about wins, Dipre.

Like any stat, especially on defense, use UZR as a guide, not a Bible.

 

I saw over 100 games of Jason Bay on LF last year. He looks lost.

 

As i have always said, "Combine defensive metrics with what your eyes can see". You don't know using what stats, subjective opinions from me or others, or whatever i have used to come up with my judgment on Bay's defensive performance, and didn't bother to ask, so don't assume.

 

Also, this comes from someone who's using a mistake in the playoffs to minimize a ballplayer's defense.

 

Hilarious.

[Spudboy]

What's the best way to measure Holliday's defense? How many hot dog plays have blown playoff games?

 

He misplayed the ball. Big deal. I don't think he was hot dogging.

[rhet]

I saw over 100 games of Jason Bay on LF last year. He looks lost.

 

As i have always said, "Combine defensive metrics with what your eyes can see". You don't know using what stats, subjective opinions from me or others, or whatever i have used to come up with my judgment on Bay's defensive performance, and didn't bother to ask, so don't assume.

 

Also, this comes from someone who's using a mistake in the playoffs to minimize a ballplayer's defense.

 

Hilarious.

 

Holliday made a mental gaff, not a physical mistake. He hot dogs routine plays, for some reason. It's just what he does. Bay had no such plays like that this year. Zero. He caught every single ball hit to him this year. I'd rather have a guy who you claim "looks lost" than a guy who blows games by hot-dogging.

[Dipre]

Holliday made a mental gaff' date=' not a physical mistake[b']. He hot dogs routine plays, for some reason. It's just what he does.[/b] Bay had no such plays like that this year. Zero. He caught every single ball hit to him this year. I'd rather have a guy who you claim "looks lost" than a guy who blows games by hot-dogging.

 

That about tells me everything i need to know about your opinion.

 

How many times have you actually seen Holliday play?

 

Furthermore, can you signal any examples of this "Hot dogging" you speak of?

[rhet]

He misplayed the ball. Big deal. I don't think he was hot dogging.

 

LOL. Ah.. his flip-basket-wanabe catch, is his style calling card in left.

[rhet]

That about tells me everything i need to know about your opinion.

 

How many times have you actually seen Holliday play?

 

Furthermore, can you signal any examples of this "Hot dogging" you speak of?

 

This post tells ME you don't watch Holliday in the field.

[26 to 6]

Good luck convincing them to go play for a near-contender in Citi Field.

Money talks. The Mets have talented players, they were just plagued by injuries last year. Besides, the Mets have never had a problem bringing big players into the fold, it's the big players who had a problem performing.

 

No one would be dissapointed if Bay came back, but trying to show Bay as a better ballplayer than Holliday is an exercise in futility. Stop trying.

I don't understand why you're on Holliday's nuts so hard, I don't think he's all that great.

[BSN07]

He would be if his defense wasn't so horrible.

 

His defensive woes are not propaganda. He'll be manning the DH spot by 2012.

 

By the way, the two most valuable players for the Sox were Youk and Lester.

 

This is not an attempt at bashing Bay, but a lot of people overlook the fact that he absolutely disappeared for nearly 2 months after his hot start. That's what scares me so much about him.

 

I was very vocal and very anti-Bay during this stretch:D. I don't like how hot and cold he tends to be. Drove me nuts.

[rhet]

I was very vocal and very anti-Bay during this stretch:D. I don't like how hot and cold he tends to be. Drove me nuts.

 

That's a legitimate criticsm of Holliday too.

[BSN07]

That's a legitimate criticsm of Holliday too.

 

Are you referring to the couple months he spent playing in pitchers paradise? The same place where he was surrounded by a very uninspiring cast?

 

While Bay played in one of the more hitter friendly parks, surrounded by quality players.

[Dipre]

 

I don't understand why you're on Holliday's nuts so hard, I don't think he's all that great.

 

See this is the type of thing to say that will make me call you a f***ing troll and go ballistic.

 

I simply want what i consider to be the best option for my team.

 

I'm a Red Sox fan on a Red Sox board, and i will hype whoever the f*** i want.

 

Who the f*** are you to tell me which player i should or shouldn't want on my team?

 

Besides that, i'm sure you haven't done the research or watched either player enough to have a meaningful opinion, so shut the f*** up.