Official 2009-2010 Hot Stove season thread

[Dipre]

If you can't get the sequence right' date=' your argument is bound to be wrong. I directed you to where the argument started. I can't do more than that.[/quote']

 

The argument didn't start there.

 

It goes way back, and you know it.

 

 

he's really good' date=' but he's no Buchholz.[/quote']

 

How about this little gem in the middle of an argument during the World Series?

 

I can dig out many more.

 

You've been a Bucholz basher since July, and it didn't stop until you "Made your point clear" yesterday.

 

The irony is delicious.

[Spudboy]

Lol.

 

Great Hot Stove discussion.

[a700hitter]

The argument didn't start there.

 

It goes way back, and you know it.

 

 

 

 

How about this little gem in the middle of an argument during the World Series?

 

I can dig out many more.

 

You've been a Bucholz basher since July, and it didn't stop until you "Made your point clear" yesterday.

 

The irony is delicious.

You are desperate picking out a reactionary post from a Game thread during the World Series when Cliff Lee was dominating the Yankees. Good Stuff, Dipre! Go back to July again to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that i hate Buchholz. You are showing your psycho side. Why would I hate any player, never mind a Red Sox? What is it that you are trying to prove? What point is it that you are trying to make? Really, you are acting like a psycho. You need to stop. You asked me to tell you clearly my opinion about Buchholz and I clearly stated it numerous times over the last couple of days. I did what you asked, and yet you are still arguing. You are acting like a psycho. You need to stop.

[Dipre]

You are desperate picking out a reactionary post from a Game thread during the World Series when Cliff Lee was dominating the Yankees. Good Stuff' date=' Dipre! Go back to July again to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that i hate Buchholz. You are showing your psycho side. Why would I hate any player, never mind a Red Sox? What is it that you are trying to prove? What point is it that you are trying to make? Really, you are acting like a psycho. You need to stop. You asked me to tell you clearly my opinion about Buchholz and I clearly stated it numerous times over the last couple of days. I did what you asked, and yet you are still arguing. You are acting like a psycho. You need to stop.[/quote']

 

"Desperately?"

 

Well, i sure am desperate sitting here on my computer.

 

What i "Was" trying to prove "Has" been proven.

 

You've been bashing Clay for months, yet now, all of a sudden, you "Thought he turned a corner" and "Never under-appreciated him". What needs to stop is your opinion flip-flopping.

 

And how am i acting like "A psycho" over the internet?

 

Do i have an "internets butcher knife?", i am simply trying to point out the obvious. You've completely changed your stance multiple times, and now you're going on tangents trying to prove otherwise.

[a700hitter]

More psycho nonsense from you Dipre. This type of stuff wrecks your credibility, so keep researching my supposed hatred of Buchholz, you psycho. BTW I still have the special edition paper handed out at Fenway when I saw his debut in 2007. I can't believe that I had so much fun and saved it considering that I hate him so much.

 

http://www.talksox.com/forum/general-baseball-forum/13409-2009-world-series-phillies-yankees-130.html#post499088

 

Originally Posted by Dipre

I'm telling you.

 

You are a closet Yankee fan.

 

Come out of the closet, Clint..

[a700hitter]

"Desperately?"

 

Well, i sure am desperate sitting here on my computer.

 

What i "Was" trying to prove "Has" been proven.

 

You've been bashing Clay for months, yet now, all of a sudden, you "Thought he turned a corner" and "Never under-appreciated him". What needs to stop is your opinion flip-flopping.

 

And how am i acting like "A psycho" over the internet?

 

Do i have an "internets butcher knife?", i am simply trying to point out the obvious. You've completely changed your stance multiple times, and now you're going on tangents trying to prove otherwise.

What's psycho is that you challenged me to take a stance on Buchholz, which I did very clearly for everyone to see, but you are still arguing about flip-flopping. That's psycho or stupid or something. Get a grip.

[Dipre]

More psycho nonsense from you Dipre. This type of stuff wrecks your credibility, so keep researching my supposed hatred of Buchholz, you psycho. BTW I still have the special edition paper handed out at Fenway when I saw his debut in 2007. I can't believe that I had so much fun and saved it considering that I hate him so much.

 

http://www.talksox.com/forum/general-baseball-forum/13409-2009-world-series-phillies-yankees-130.html#post499088

 

I meant that. Fully.

 

Yet another tangential attempt at evading the actual subject.

 

Please, Clint, you're better than this.

 

Just admit you share Gom's viewpoint on the kid, and you wished they traded him for Halladay.

 

The "credibility issue" is usually raised when people have just about run out of arguments.

 

Lol,psycho.Through the internet.

[Dipre]

What's psycho is that you challenged me to take a stance on Buchholz' date=' which I did very clearly for everyone to see, but you are still arguing about flip-flopping. That's psycho or stupid or something. Get a grip.[/quote']

 

*Yawn*.

 

Sure.

 

You still haven't debated the actual point of the argument.

 

Oh well.

[a700hitter]

*Yawn*.

 

Sure.

 

You still haven't debated the actual point of the argument.

 

Oh well.

Oh, but I have. Hit the SAP button on your computer and read it all again.

[Dipre]

Oh' date=' but I have. Hit the SAP button on your computer and read it all again.[/quote']

 

Lol.

 

So you bashed Bucholz continually until yesterday when you had "Obviously always stated he turned a corner".

 

Instead of admitting that, you keep arguing otherwise, and i'm a psycho for continuing the conversation in an obviously civil manner. No insults, no personal attacks. Oh well, my credibility is broken.

[a700hitter]

Lol.

 

So you bashed Bucholz continually until yesterday when you had "Obviously always stated he turned a corner".

 

Instead of admitting that, you keep arguing otherwise, and i'm a psycho for continuing the conversation in an obviously civil manner. No insults, no personal attacks. Oh well, my credibility is broken.

From your post #1949 in this thread where you quoted my post from November 18th. What does "encouraging" mean to you?

 

Originally Posted by a700hitter

My argument is this. Buchholz did not go through the league like a buzz saw. His performance was encouraging after he s*** the bed in 2008, but his 2009 performance was far from star caliber. 2010 will definitely be a crossroads year for him. If he doesn't breakout this coming season, we may have to reconsider his star potential.

That's how I felt on November 18th, and I stand by it today.

[Dipre]

From your post #1949 in this thread where you quoted my post from November 18th. What does "encouraging" mean to you?

 

That's how I felt on November 18th, and I stand by it today.

 

A week ago. And you compared him to Penny right before that. Fantastic.

[a700hitter]

So you bashed Bucholz continually until yesterday when you had "Obviously always stated he turned a corner".

Yes, yes yes. I hate Buchholz. His face makes me sick. I despise him. i don't care if he goes 20-0 and breaks Gibson's 1968 ERA of 1.12. Yes, that's a weight off me.

[Dipre]

Yes' date=' yes yes. I hate Buchholz. His face makes me sick. I despise him. i don't care if he goes 20-0 and breaks Gibson's 1968 ERA of 1.12. Yes, that's a weight off me.[/quote']

 

Now was that so difficult?

 

And by the way, since our beer bet went down the drain, we should find another way to exchange prizes. It was a tie after all.

[example1]

Not really' date=' no. They really aren't comparable, not at the same age. [/quote']

 

Please explain why you believe this. What about the numbers I posted make them poor comparables through age 24? As a reminder, here's what I said:

 

Roy Halladay vs. Clay Buchholz, thru age 24:

 

[table] NAME | IP | ERA | WHIP | K/9 | K/BB |

Halladay | 336.1 | 4.95 | 1.537 | 6.3 | 1.59 |

Buchholz | 190.2 | 4.91 | 1.495 | 7.6 | 1.86 | [/table]

 

Buchholz had a better ERA, a better WHIP, better K/9, and a better K/BB than Roy Halladay through the same age.

 

Chris Carpenter vs. Clay Buchholz, thru age 24:

 

[table] NAME | IP | ERA | WHIP | K/9 | K/BB |

Carpenter | 406.1 | 4.52 | 1.496 | 6.6 | 2.03 |

Buchholz | 190.2 | 4.91 | 1.495 | 7.6 | 1.86 | [/table]

 

Similar WHIP, better K's.

 

How is Schilling the only relevant comparison. If you can point out what it is about Schilling that makes his thru-24 stats so much more relevant than Halladay and Carpenter then perhaps I can find others that are more suited to your liking.

 

One. I already admitted that. Try reading sometime. You're arguing a point I conceded. However, I was showing a trend. The trend is that most pitchers, by 25, are already established. I was too lazy to do a lot of research, and you did it. The only one was Schilling really. Good job.

 

If you're admitting that you're too lazy to do the research then I will assume that you don't have good reasons to prefer Schilling over the other guys I listed, other than the fact that it makes your argument look worse and this is the lazy-man's way of avoiding that circumstance. Otherwise, explain yourself please.

 

Completely agreed. However, in 3 years, you haven't gotten much. As Dipre said, it was a cup of coffee in 2007. 2008 and 2009 have been bad and injury plagued.

 

1) If by 3 years you mean one year of eligibility, then you're right. However, the Red Sox have been smart enough not to waste his MLB time when he's struggling. Instead (I believe) he has roughly 5 years of cost-control left.

 

2) Buchholz also hasn't been injured. He had one 15-day DL stint due to a fingernail issue. That's it. He threw 134 total IP in 2008, and 191 in 2009.

 

I never even heard of Casey Kelly until he was mentioned a couple of days ago as a potential chip for Halladay. I don't even know what position he plays. What is relevant is the results. He could be the next big thing, or just a flame out. When people "project" things, it's wrong at such a significant rate that for the most part, you'd be just as successful flipping a coin.

 

 

Casey Kelly was the Sox first round pick in 2008. He is a SS/P (soon to be just pitcher) whose father is Pat Kelly (former major leaguer). He was prepared to be the QB at Tennessee until the Sox paid him a $3m bonus. He's been extrordinarily successful so far as a pitcher. He pitched in the 09 Futures Game and is very advanced for his age. Just FYI.

 

Someone else, who supports the team that I hate and vice versa, is seeing eye to eye with me. This is the reason, or one of them, that I joined Talksox. You see, it's much easier to join a board that supports your team. You flow with the masses. I got tired of Yankee fans who thought along the same lines as you, no disrespect intended on this national holiday. One's who preached that every prospect was a future All-Star, and that the rest of baseball was their as an extended farm team. You don't do it nearly as much, but you are guilty of this to an extent. It may not be the most fair of insinuations, but I'm sure you get the drift.

 

You laid down a challenge about 24 year olds and future success. I answered that challenge. Now I challenge you. Please find quotes of mine where I tout prospects who have not been successful. I imagine Craig Hansen will be one... others? Maybe Jed Lowrie...

 

As of right now I can find something like 240 players (I lost count around there) listed as active prospects on the Red Sox farm teams. I think I tout about 1 or 2 at a time, maybe up to 5. That's a percentage of 2%. I hihgly tout about 2% of Red Sox prospects. My eyes are f***ing glazed over in rose colored lenses, huh?

 

 

By the way...if the consensus among scouts and execs is correct, he would have been traded already. Could it be that the so-called consensus is pretty much limited to the Red Sox front office?

 

Huh? Would you say the same about any other player?

 

Let's pretend we're talking about Evan Longoria in 2006. If the consensus were correct that Evan Longoria were a franchise 3B, your thought is that he would be traded? How about Jon Lester, if the consensus in 2005 was that he was going to be an exceptional pitcher, then we should expect him to have been traded? That makes no sense. Please clarify.

 

The Yankees were masters of this. They would hype their prospects so much that other teams would fall for it. The Red Sox are engaging themselves into this game, and doing it quite well, it seems. You fell for it.

 

Yet you have no definitive proof that I've been wrong about any of these prospects. Hell, the jury is still out on most of them because most of them are still in their early 20's.

 

That years of life have shown me not to believe everything I read. Not just in sports, but in everything. I take everything I read with a grain of salt, and trust raw statistical data as well as my own eyes more than anything else.

 

Yet you haven't read anything about the Red Sox top prospect (Kelly), while telling those who have that he's likely to be a bust and that we're being sold a bill of goods? What kind of critical analysis went into this, other than an ingrained bias?

[a700hitter]

A week ago. And you compared him to Penny right before that. Fantastic.

You clearly can't read. I showed that his percentage of starts that were QS was not that great. Something like 60% or so and I pointed out that a bag of sit like Penny had a percentage in the 50's. That was meant to illustrate that Buchholz's performance was somewhere between star like Halladay with a QS percentage probably around 80% and a bag of s*** like Penny at 50%. It was not a comparison to penny, but that's too deep for you.

[Dipre]

You clearly can't read. I showed that his percentage of starts that were QS was not that great. Something like 60% or so and I pointed out that a bag of sit like Penny had a percentage in the 50's. That was meant to illustrate that Buchholz's performance was somewhere between star like Halladay with a QS percentage probably around 80% and a bag of s*** like Penny at 50%. It was not a comparison to penny' date=' but that's too deep for you.[/quote']

 

Not to deep, i picked up the underhand attack from the get-go.

[a700hitter]

Now was that so difficult?

 

And by the way, since our beer bet went down the drain, we should find another way to exchange prizes. It was a tie after all.

Since I hate Buchholz, let's make him the topic of the bet. Here's my prediction for his 2010 if he stays with the Sox:

 

14 wins, 10 losses, 4.15 ERA, 165 K's, 181 Innings

 

One beer for each category.

[Dipre]

Since I hate Buchholz, let's make him the topic of the bet. Here's my prediction for his 2010 if he stays with the Sox:

 

14 wins, 10 losses, 4.15 ERA, 165 K's, 181 Innings

 

One beer for each category.

 

You, my good sir, have got yourself a deal.

[soxfan26]

I think the aquisition of Hulett is a good trade. He has good aaa numbers and has not been challenged the last two seasons in AAA. Dont let his ba in the majors fool u. He sure hasnt been given much of a consistant chance to play. Not saying he is going to get alot of pt here but I think if given a shot to hit late in games or give pedroia a day off here and there would not hurt at all.

[a700hitter]

You' date=' my good sir, have got yourself a deal.[/quote']Where are your predictions?

[Dipre]

Where are your predictions?

 

16-9, 4.05 ERA, 172 K'S, 185 IP.

[a700hitter]

16-9' date=' 4.05 ERA, 172 K'S, 185 IP.[/quote']:lol: Do you realize how close our predictions are? If I hate him, then you can't be too fond of him.

[Dipre]

:lol: Do you realize how close our predictions are? If I hate him' date=' then you can't be too fond of him. [/quote']

 

Hey, i know the game you're playing, man. You're not deep enough for me.

[a700hitter]

Hey' date=' i know the game you're playing, man. You're not deep enough for me.[/quote']Admit it. You hate him. Don't you.

[Dipre]

Admit it. You hate him. Don't you.

 

He did steal those laptops.........

[BSN07]

I think you both should sig your predictions

[Lester82]

People get paid in Canada too for writing bad columns, not exactly shocking LOL

 

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Columnists/Elliott/2009/11/27/11957776-sun.html

 

For god sakes, I guess the major-league exec IMMEDIATELY dropped the part about the Yankees to counter the Red Sox rumor that was leaked to the NY Daily News.

 

This guy isn't going to the Yankees or Red Sox. After reading further today what Toronto wants, plus the extension this guy will command... Just Pass.

 

Buchholz + Kelly, plus eventual extension...

 

Hughes or Joba + Montero, plus eventual extension...

 

It's just an awful lot. Wait till next year's free agent class.

[riverside sluggers]

Updating from the "Halladay would approve trade to New York". Buster Onley lists Halladay's preferred destinations: Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, Phillies

 

I dont have a link because need subscription to "the Insider"

[The_Destroyah]

I know Im not playing but just for fun my prediction is 15-9 3.85ERA 182Ks 168IP