Official Red Sox offseason thread

[ORS]

No, but Saltalamacchia was MLB ready. His minor league development was pretty much done. Furthermore, there was no season of suck at the MLB level to cast doubt on his potential. And, keep in mind, right now we are only comparing one package to another, in the given scenario, the team will have to come up with two packages for young elite players. There's no way Buchholz doesn't make it into one of them.

 

Think about it from the perspective of the other team. Do you give up your best young player and not demand Buchholz in return? I don't, because I'm not making trades that don't make me better, and there are few packages the Sox could put together without Buchholz that make me think I'm improving while giving up an Adrian Gonzalez or Felix Hernandez.

[ORS]

In fact, let's do this.

 

You are the San Diego GM. You just got hired. The guy you replaced was fired for not building a winner. This is your first offseason. You've got some financial constraints, and the outlook on future talent in your system is a little bleak. The Red Sox are interested in trading for your lone shining star. What is your line in the sand in regards to the return package?

 

EDIT: Oh, and you know the Red Sox are desperate for a 1B masher, which your guy is. There's nothing on the market for them to purchase, and their decision to be cautious last year when there was an elite guy available blew up in their faces.

[Dipre]

In fact, let's do this.

 

You are the San Diego GM. You just got hired. The guy you replaced was fired for not building a winner. This is your first offseason. You've got some financial constraints, and the outlook on future talent in your system is a little bleak. The Red Sox are interested in trading for your lone shining star. What is your line in the sand in regards to the return package?

 

EDIT: Oh, and you know the Red Sox are desperate for a 1B masher, which your guy is. There's nothing on the market for them to purchase, and their decision to be cautious last year when there was an elite guy available blew up in their faces.

 

Well, to be fair, it was a marginal gain.

[Dojji]

In fact, let's do this.

 

You are the San Diego GM. You just got hired. The guy you replaced was fired for not building a winner. This is your first offseason. You've got some financial constraints, and the outlook on future talent in your system is a little bleak. The Red Sox are interested in trading for your lone shining star. What is your line in the sand in regards to the return package?

 

EDIT: Oh, and you know the Red Sox are desperate for a 1B masher, which your guy is. There's nothing on the market for them to purchase, and their decision to be cautious last year when there was an elite guy available blew up in their faces.

 

yeah, blew up in our faces to the tune of our 6th playoffs in the last 7 years despite the degradation of several other key pieces.

 

Frankly, in that environment, I'd be inclined not to trade Adrian Gonzalez at all, especially if he seemed interested in re-signing in San Diego. He's young. There's time. And there's money too, since they've just traded Peavy away. They can make Adrian happy right where he is if he decides to let them.

 

What's more, there's a club option guaranteeing the Pads have one more year to make any decisions. If it falls out that they can't resign him after the following year, the return would still be justifiably large and they''d have had one more year to try and either win, extend him, or at least regenerate the farm through other means.

 

Since Felix Hernandez is in a similar place contract wise, I doubt even Buchholz will tempt Felix out of Seattle either. For the same reason he'd be considered a "F'n Huge Upgrade" over on this side of the hills

[jacksonianmarch]

yeah, blew up in our faces to the tune of our 6th playoffs in the last 7 years despite the degradation of several other key pieces.

 

Frankly, in that environment, I'd be inclined not to trade Adrian Gonzalez at all, especially if he seemed interested in re-signing in San Diego. He's young. There's time.

 

What's more, there's a club option guaranteeing the Pads have one more year to make any decisions. If it falls out that they can't resign him after the following year, the return would still be justifiably large and they''d have had one more year to try and either win, extend him, or at least regenerate the farm through other means.

 

Since Felix Hernandez is in a similar place contract wise, I doubt even Buchholz will tempt Felix out of Seattle either. For the same reason he'd be considered a "F'n Huge Upgrade" over on this side of the hills

 

Dojji, if the sox had Teixeira, they win the east. If they had Teixeira, they become more consistent. And with Teixeira, the sox are MUCH better and are much more of a playoff threat. You could see how weak the sox were as the season ran along and I dont think anyone actually thought the sox could win the WS aside from just complete s*** luck

[jacksonianmarch]

Well' date=' to be fair, it was a marginal gain.[/quote']

 

Tex vs Lowell is a marginal gain?

[Dipre]

Tex vs Lowell is a marginal gain?

 

It's sarcasm, you bumbling idiot.

[Dojji]

Dojji' date=' if the sox had Teixeira, they win the east. If they had Teixeira, they become more consistent. And with Teixeira, the sox are MUCH better and are much more of a playoff threat. You could see how weak the sox were as the season ran along and I dont think anyone actually thought the sox could win the WS aside from just complete s*** luck[/quote']

 

All of which blithely ignores the fact that getting Teixeira was a highly unlikely prospect for the Sox given the fact that the Yankees had planty of money and a hole at first base.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

All of which blithely ignores the fact that getting Teixeira was a highly unlikely prospect for the Sox given the fact that the Yankees had planty of money and a hole at first base.

No you see the Red Sox told Teixeira to go shove it Teixeira wanted to come here really badly he didn't give a crap about top dollar but dummy Theo decided against Teixeira and now look at us its all Theo's fault fire Theo the end.

[Dipre]

Dojji' date=' if the sox had Teixeira, they win the east. If they had Teixeira, they become more consistent. And with Teixeira, the sox are MUCH better and are much more of a playoff threat. You could see how weak the sox were as the season ran along and I dont think anyone actually thought the sox could win the WS aside from just complete s*** luck[/quote']

 

By the way, this is absolute and total ******** (The Jacko staple).

 

This is a 95-win team, for one.

 

And as we know, the playoffs are a crap-shoot, and for all their road offense woes, a hot couple games could see the Sox in the WS.

 

Get over yourself.

[jacksonianmarch]

keep thinking that. Remember, the sox had the lead in the negotiations, they were the highest bidder and they had a face to face with the chance to seal the deal. And it came down to 10mil over 8yrs, o/w known as 1.25mil a season. The equivalent of an Alex Cora. Instead, the sox pocketed the money put out the "we are a very good club who can play status quo and win a championship" and instead of putting yourself in a position to win a WS, you are one loss away from a LOOOONG winter.

 

Think about it this way. If the Yankees win a world series with Teixeira being our MVP while the sox bow out in the 1st round, would that prove the 10 mil saved to be a s***** investment? Plus, Tex is 29 yrs old now and will be the face of this offense for a LOOONG time

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

keep thinking that. Remember' date=' the sox had the lead in the negotiations, they were the highest bidder and they had a face to face with the chance to seal the deal. And it came down to 10mil over 8yrs, o/w known as 1.25mil a season. The equivalent of an Alex Cora. Instead, the sox pocketed the money put out the "we are a very good club who can play status quo and win a championship" and instead of putting yourself in a position to win a WS, you are one loss away from a LOOOONG winter.[/quote']

 

You're really this unfamiliar with your own f***ing team?

 

I'd tell you why you're so miserably off-target, but then you wouldn't learn anything.

 

Think about it this way. If the Yankees win a world series with Teixeira being our MVP while the sox bow out in the 1st round, would that prove the 10 mil saved to be a s***** investment? Plus, Tex is 29 yrs old now and will be the face of this offense for a LOOONG time

 

Didn't realize the world was imploding in February.

[Dipre]

keep thinking that. Remember, the sox had the lead in the negotiations, they were the highest bidder and they had a face to face with the chance to seal the deal. And it came down to 10mil over 8yrs, o/w known as 1.25mil a season. The equivalent of an Alex Cora. Instead, the sox pocketed the money put out the "we are a very good club who can play status quo and win a championship" and instead of putting yourself in a position to win a WS, you are one loss away from a LOOOONG winter.

 

Think about it this way. If the Yankees win a world series with Teixeira being our MVP while the sox bow out in the 1st round, would that prove the 10 mil saved to be a s***** investment? Plus, Tex is 29 yrs old now and will be the face of this offense for a LOOONG time

 

http://holycrapthatsfunny.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/facepalm.jpg

 

Ok, no more image macros, but seriously.

[das11209]

I really wanted Tex and was disappointed with the outcome - but I got over it. But what really ticked me off was the way FO advertised everything regarding that deal. They could have been little discrete - in that case it would not have blown to their face the way it did.

[example1]

Ugh, where to start.

 

Doj: I think it is unlikely that the Sox trade Buchholz too. However, if in the process of moving him they end up getting HWSNBN and Adrian Gonzalez, then that's when he should be moved. His value really is very close to Hernandez's, except that Hernandez is the pitcher we all hope Buchholz will become and there isn't a lot of room for unknowns on this team. If they have to keep Buchholz that's no skin off my back. If they get the opportunity to trade him for one of the best talents in baseball, they should--assuming they've already addressed their need for an elite bat. If they haven't done that then they need to hold back IMO.

 

ORS: If I were San Deigo I would probably start by asking for Buchholz. When I heard from the Sox that he isn't available, I would start by demanding (not asking) that Kelly be included in any deal. I would ask for Kelly, Bowden, either Doubront or Stolmy, Reddick or Kalish (whichever I thought was better... probably Reddick), and Rizzo or Lars Anderson. That seems like a really nice haul and a very cheap way to rebuild my club with good proven players. (Kelly, Bowden, Stolmy, Reddick and Rizzo?). I don't think it would hurt the Sox tremendously over the longrun. By the time Reddick's spot becomes important they could have Kalish or Lin or Westmoreland ready to go (in, say, 2-3 years). Kelly would be hard to lose but I think dealing him would be inevitable. Rizzo could go on to do great things, but Boston--unlike SD--cannot afford to let a major power position learn on the job. Stolmy and Bowden can both develop into very nice MLB pitchers, Bowden ready to start next season. They would get Reddick and Bowden immediately, Kelly and Rizzo in the next two years or so, and Stolmy as a promising prospect to have in the system. Again, that's a huge haul for a team that has a s***** farm system.

[example1]

keep thinking that. Remember' date=' the sox had the lead in the negotiations, they were the highest bidder and they had a face to face with the chance to seal the deal. And it came down to 10mil over 8yrs, o/w known as 1.25mil a season. The equivalent of an Alex Cora. Instead, the sox pocketed the money put out the "we are a very good club who can play status quo and win a championship" and instead of putting yourself in a position to win a WS, you are one loss away from a LOOOONG winter. [/quote']

 

First, I don't think most of us are treating this like a "LOOOONG winter". I think we all believe the FO is very intent on making some tangible improvements to this team. In the past that has been a good thing. Regardless of what happens in the 09 playoffs, the offseason should be fun to watch.

 

Second, you simply don't know that Henry walked out of their meeting angry because of 10 mil over 8 years. You just don't know that. If that was all it was about he likely wouldn't have declared negotiations over. He would have left the Sox best offer on the table and waited to see if it was taken.

 

I speculate (just as you do), but my guess is that Boras demanded way more money than he ultimately got from the Yankees. He was shooting for 200m and 10 years. How do you know he didn't say "I think I can get 200m/10 years from the Yankees. Pay up now or my client goes there." ? That would be enough for Henry to say "fine, f*** it, go sign with them for that much" and then Teixeira--Horsefaced dipshit that he is--went and signed for less than Boras demanded from the Red Sox with his longtime favorite team, in the place he always wanted to play, NY.

 

I differ with others, apparently, because I'm pretty sure Teixeira would have put them over the top this season. That said, I don't agree that it was 10m over 8 years. I don't have any reason to trust that Boras or Teixeira made it easy for the Sox. Boras doesn't operate that way.

 

 

Think about it this way. If the Yankees win a world series with Teixeira being our MVP while the sox bow out in the 1st round, would that prove the 10 mil saved to be a s***** investment? Plus, Tex is 29 yrs old now and will be the face of this offense for a LOOONG time

 

One: Your 10mil is purely speculative and assumes that Teixeira would have taken less than they demanded from other teams to go to Boston or NY. I think he only would have taken less to go to NY and his dipshit smile when he plays with pinstripes on seems to back that up.

 

Two: I thought the Yankees were paying A-Rod 30+M to be the face of the franchise... you said the face of the franchise. Two very expensive faces, both of them ugly and bloated.

[Dipre]

First, I don't think most of us are treating this like a "LOOOONG winter". I think we all believe the FO is very intent on making some tangible improvements to this team. In the past that has been a good thing. Regardless of what happens in the 09 playoffs, the offseason should be fun to watch.

 

Second, you simply don't know that Henry walked out of their meeting angry because of 10 mil over 8 years. You just don't know that. If that was all it was about he likely wouldn't have declared negotiations over. He would have left the Sox best offer on the table and waited to see if it was taken.

 

I speculate (just as you do), but my guess is that Boras demanded way more money than he ultimately got from the Yankees. He was shooting for 200m and 10 years. How do you know he didn't say "I think I can get 200m/10 years from the Yankees. Pay up now or my client goes there." ? That would be enough for Henry to say "fine, f*** it, go sign with them for that much" and then Teixeira--Horsefaced dipshit that he is--went and signed for less than Boras demanded from the Red Sox with his longtime favorite team, in the place he always wanted to play, NY.

 

I differ with others, apparently, because I'm pretty sure Teixeira would have put them over the top this season. That said, I don't agree that it was 10m over 8 years. I don't have any reason to trust that Boras or Teixeira made it easy for the Sox. Boras doesn't operate that way.

 

 

 

 

One: Your 10mil is purely speculative and assumes that Teixeira would have taken less than they demanded from other teams to go to Boston or NY. I think he only would have taken less to go to NY and his dipshit smile when he plays with pinstripes on seems to back that up.

 

Two: I thought the Yankees were paying A-Rod 30+M to be the face of the franchise... you said the face of the franchise. Two very expensive faces, both of them ugly and bloated.

 

Why even bother responding to Jacko?

 

DFTT!

[example1]

Why even bother responding to Jacko?

 

DFTT!

 

 

You responded to him too, dumbass! I just put some sentences together.

 

Mostly, I feel like talking about the offseason takes away from the pain of imagining the Sox season being over. I've been convinced for a long time this team isn't World Series good. In fact, I didn't think they would be that good if they got Halladay or Cliff Lee or anyone else at the deadline (aside from AG, perhaps). Now, my sights are focused on how this incarnation of the Sox can ultimately beat the Yankees.

[Dipre]

 

You responded to him too, dumbass! I just put some sentences together.

 

Mostly, I feel like talking about the offseason takes away from the pain of imagining the Sox season being over. I've been convinced for a long time this team isn't World Series good. In fact, I didn't think they would be that good if they got Halladay or Cliff Lee or anyone else at the deadline (aside from AG, perhaps). Now, my sights are focused on how this incarnation of the Sox can ultimately beat the Yankees.

 

First of all, my ass is not dumb, thank you.

 

Secondly i responded with a facepalm macro and several assorted insults, you, however, actually typed something that makes sense, and that's sure to give the troll some unwarranted self-importance.

[example1]

First of all, my ass is not dumb, thank you.

 

Secondly i responded with a facepalm macro and several assorted insults, you, however, actually typed something that makes sense, and that's sure to give the troll some unwarranted self-importance.

 

His self-importance cup runneth over already. My additional spit dripping in there doesn't make it any fuller. Hopefully it just dirties his cup.

[Dipre]

His self-importance cup runneth over already. My additional spit dripping in there doesn't make it any fuller. Hopefully it just dirties his cup.

 

First of all, it wouldn't be your spit, but probably some fingernail dirt, seeing as we are typing, but really, do his biased opinions deserve a thought-out response?

 

I need to introduce you to the table man!

[example1]

First of all, it wouldn't be your spit, but probably some fingernail dirt, seeing as we are typing, but really, do his biased opinions deserve a thought-out response?

 

I need to introduce you to the table man!

 

I have seen the table and, although both funny and accurate, its power seem negligable against Jacksonian's powers of blindly charging from stupid argument to stupid argument, with his protective suits and reason-repellant uniform.

[Dipre]

I have seen the table and, although both funny and accurate, its power seem negligable against Jacksonian's powers of blindly charging from stupid argument to stupid argument, with his protective suits and reason-repellant uniform.

 

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/heat/450/zeo.jpg

 

Can't see the pic for one, and for two, i'm pretty sure that uniform is made of poop!

[example1]

Can't see the pic for one' date=' and for two, i'm pretty sure that uniform is made of poop! [/quote']

 

I removed the pic very quickly (apparently not more quickly than you replied). Believe me, the pic (like Jacko) was uninspired. I removed it and the post was still decent.

[mvp 78]

Frankly' date=' in that environment, I'd be inclined not to trade Adrian Gonzalez at all, especially if he seemed interested in re-signing in San Diego. He's young. There's time. And there's money too, since they've just traded Peavy away. They can make Adrian happy right where he is if he decides to let them.[/quote']

 

Wow, you have no idea how that organization is being run, do you?

 

The Pads don't have crap for money. They can't sell out any of their games in the new stadium. They have no one in their minor leagues.

 

They didn't trade Peavy so that they could waste their money on Gonzalez. They traded him because they needed help rebuilding their farm system, which is basically the same reason they need to trade Gonzalez.

 

They don't need a "face of the franchise" to sell tickets to tourists and transplanted Sox and Yankees fans. There is zero reason to keep him around.

[example1]

Wow, you have no idea how that organization is being run, do you?

 

The Pads don't have crap for money. They can't sell out any of their games in the new stadium. They have no one in their minor leagues.

 

They didn't trade Peavy so that they could waste their money on Gonzalez. They traded him because they needed help rebuilding their farm system, which is basically the same reason they need to trade Gonzalez.

 

They don't need a "face of the franchise" to sell tickets to tourists and transplanted Sox and Yankees fans. There is zero reason to keep him around.

 

Yep. SD will probably still get the same low number of fans (and wins) with a rebuilt team of exciting youngsters as they do with Adrian Gonzalez. I think there's reason to think the Sox could get him for a bunch of players most of us just don't care about very much. It is time to put this player development machine to work and deal away some of that young talent.

 

They revamped their farm system with some really nice draft picks this year, but they won't be ready for a few years. That's okay though because there aren't really spots for most of them either. Trade them to teams who could use them, and get back the pieces this team clearly needs.

[ORS]

Second, you simply don't know that Henry walked out of their meeting angry because of 10 mil over 8 years. You just don't know that. If that was all it was about he likely wouldn't have declared negotiations over. He would have left the Sox best offer on the table and waited to see if it was taken.

 

I speculate (just as you do), but my guess is that Boras demanded way more money than he ultimately got from the Yankees. He was shooting for 200m and 10 years. How do you know he didn't say "I think I can get 200m/10 years from the Yankees. Pay up now or my client goes there." ? That would be enough for Henry to say "fine, f*** it, go sign with them for that much" and then Teixeira--Horsefaced dipshit that he is--went and signed for less than Boras demanded from the Red Sox with his longtime favorite team, in the place he always wanted to play, NY.

 

I differ with others, apparently, because I'm pretty sure Teixeira would have put them over the top this season. That said, I don't agree that it was 10m over 8 years. I don't have any reason to trust that Boras or Teixeira made it easy for the Sox. Boras doesn't operate that way.

People take the reported "...they could have closed the deal for $190M / 8 years..." as gospel. I'm skeptical of anything that gets reported when it comes to contract negotiations, particularly when they come before any deal is struck. It's not only reasonable, but I can think of no reason why Boras would agree to strike a deal before the Yankees had a chance to counter, so your suggestion that only a ludicrous deal ends that meeting with ink on a contract is most likely right. When/if the Red Sox blanched at such demands and backed away from the table, it would be in Boras interest to get them back to the table after talking to the Yankees. What better way than leaking the offer that "could have got the deal done" to put fan sentiment on the side of continued negotiations?

 

Now that I think about it, who broke that reported offer? If it was Heyman, you can bet it was Boras propaganda.

 

Anyway, I think the FO still could have handled it better. After they walked away from the table a statement like the following would have been helpful (if it is what happened): "We entered negotiations with the intent of getting a deal done today. We were informed that in order to strike a deal today it required an exorbidant offer. We can only assume this means our best and final offer would be shopped to other teams (read Yankees). Our best and final offer remains on the table."

[italstallianion]

What?

 

Buchholz would be the centerpiece of the deal, sport.

 

 

I understand that. My point is that none of these teams are jumping to a deal where Buchholz is the centerpiece. My point is that Buchholz might not be as good as many of these people think and that the other GM's don't see Buchholz in the same light as many people here do. In addition, I believe that Buchholz not being traded is more because of the other GM's not being willing to trade a star player for him (in a package deal) rather than being because the Red Sox see Buchholz as indispenable or irreplaceable (as Dojji seems to put it).

 

Jumping off of that, I'll say that if any of those GM's make Adrian Gonzalez, Hanley Ramirez, King Felix or somewhat of that caliber in a deal involving Buchholz, that the Sox front office (as well as most of us here) would jizz themselves at trading Buchholz (depending on what the other pieces are) to get a player like Gonzo, Ramierz or Felix.

[Dojji]

What kind of "exciting youngsters" can we offer? Will we be able to take Buchholz and Bard off the table and still get Gonzo? Because otherwise, I'm really not sure we need to rob our pitching to supplement the lineup. BOTH have been issues both in this season and in the postseason.

 

The recent history of that kind of trade from the perspective of the team giving up the veteran has been pretty spotty. The speculative gain has often been much sexier than the reality.

 

On the one hand, Adam Jones definitely recompenced the Orioles for the loss of Erik Bedard

 

Oh the other hand, there's the Twins debacular handling of the Santana deal.

 

Generally it winds up somewhere in the middle, kind of like the Martinez deal. The pieces you get back can be more accurately descrubed as "interesting and useful" than "exciting."

 

In the end I don't think it's a slam dunk that Gonzalez will be traded. Even if he is, there's nothing forcing the Padres to do it this offseason. I think that people who say it's the only way for that franchise to move forward are engaging in wishful thinking.

[example1]

People take the reported "...they could have closed the deal for $190M / 8 years..." as gospel. I'm skeptical of anything that gets reported when it comes to contract negotiations, particularly when they come before any deal is struck. It's not only reasonable, but I can think of no reason why Boras would agree to strike a deal before the Yankees had a chance to counter, so your suggestion that only a ludicrous deal ends that meeting with ink on a contract is most likely right. When/if the Red Sox blanched at such demands and backed away from the table, it would be in Boras interest to get them back to the table after talking to the Yankees. What better way than leaking the offer that "could have got the deal done" to put fan sentiment on the side of continued negotiations?

 

Now that I think about it, who broke that reported offer? If it was Heyman, you can bet it was Boras propaganda.

 

Anyway, I think the FO still could have handled it better. After they walked away from the table a statement like the following would have been helpful (if it is what happened): "We entered negotiations with the intent of getting a deal done today. We were informed that in order to strike a deal today it required an exorbidant offer. We can only assume this means our best and final offer would be shopped to other teams (read Yankees). Our best and final offer remains on the table."

 

I agree about the more reasonable statement, rather than "I'm f***ing pissed and the deal is off" or whatever Henry supposedly said. That said, if the Sox were to start bringing Boras, or the player, or the Yankees into the statements (even only as an aside) then they stand open to the "trash the player" reputation that so many on this board love.

 

Basically, I see this FO as a group of intelligent and well-resourced baseball fans. They want the Sox to win, but they won't lose hundreds of millions of dollars in the process. They think they can both have a positive business venture and a winning club, and I don't disagree with them.

 

I think Boras is a chump and is someone who has too much power in this game. However, the reality is that he does have that power and, like the Yankees, it is something we have to live with.