Papi

[jacksonianmarch]

Yeah, he looks to me like his stance is much more upright and is cheating fastball - he seems to be having a tough time recognizing off-speed stuff.

 

That and his contact has none of the elevation we've come to expect from Ortiz.

 

Nailed it. I have actually seen the sox more than the yankees this season (mostly due to their west coast swing and my schedule this week). And I must admit, he is completely cheating fastball. Thing is, he isnt getting around on it even with his cheating. And any offspeed pitch is giving him absolute fits. If he isnt currently hurt and this is just the post-wrist/knee/age Papi, then he's finished. If he's still hurt (which is what he looks like to me) then maybe they should rest him a bit.

[TheKilo]

Bay

 

Manny's time was up in Boston. But comparing him to Bay is not fair even to Bay. Manny might be the best right-handed hitter of our generation along with A-Rod and Pujols when all set and done.

 

I agree that Bay absolutely pales in comparison to Manny. Its not like we gave Manny away' date=' but Bay just isn't in the same universe.[/quote']

 

this is just, wrong.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Maybe I exaggerated a bit, but Bay doesn't provide 1/20th the plate (or on-deck) presence that Manny does.

[BoSox21]

There's a wide area of value to place on Jason Bay between Manny-esque and a scrub hitter. Jason Bay is definitely one of the better hitters in baseball and a clear middle of the order bat

[Dojji]

I agree that Bay absolutely pales in comparison to Manny. Its not like we gave Manny away' date=' but Bay just isn't in the same universe.[/quote']

 

The difference is overrated. Most of it comes down to Manny's superior OBP. Bay is a fine RHH and plays his role well.

[TheKilo]

Maybe I exaggerated a bit' date=' but Bay doesn't provide 1/20th the plate (or on-deck) presence that Manny does.[/quote']

 

This is where we got off on the wrong foot last season, but let me just say that "presence" is overrated and a load of crap.

 

Jason Bay is an excellent MLB hitter and probably a top 5 or 6 LF in the game.

[BoSox21]

BEST LF IN THE AL

[Dojji]

I'd really like to take a look and try to find the LF's in this league that are definitely better than Bay. I don't think there are that many of them.

[TheKilo]

Carlos Lee

Manny Ramirez

Alfonso Soriano

Ryan Braun

Matt Holliday

Carlos Quentin

[Dojji]

Of that list, I'm gonna contest Soriano and Holliday. Holliday's numbers are inflated by Coors and while Soriano has excellent power and nice speed, he isn't nearly as consistent and he's far more injury-prone.

 

By career OPS+, the people on your list plus Bay.

 

Braun 137

Bay: 131

Holliday: 131

Quentin: 122

Soriano: 117

Carlos Lee: 116

 

That might not be quite fair to guys like Quentin and Braun who are on the upside of their careers, particularly Quentin who spent some time struggling with a "sophomore slump" , but ignoring that for the moment, Bay certainly doesn't take a backseat to these guys offensively, not by any stretch of the imagination.

[TheKilo]

Holliday has improved his numbers away from Coors every season.

[Dojji]

But point stands, even if you throw that argument out, Holliday and Bay are equal players offensively by OPS+, and that throws in Bay's lamentable '07 campaign. Park factors would certainly serve for a tiebreaker I'd say.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

This is where we got off on the wrong foot last season, but let me just say that "presence" is overrated and a load of crap.

 

Jason Bay is an excellent MLB hitter and probably a top 5 or 6 LF in the game.

That speaks more to the left field crop than it does to Bay.

 

 

As far as LFs and hitters go, Manny blows Bay away.

[BoSox21]

As far as LFs and hitters go' date=' Manny blows Bay away.[/quote']

 

is there anyone arguing this fact with you?

[TheKilo]

is there anyone arguing this fact with you?

 

Yes, because Manny doesn't "blow Bay away"

 

The players today are very comparable. Not at their peaks. Today.

[Dojji]

Right. If we brought Manny back, it wouldn't be that Manny anymore than Ortiz is that Ortiz.

 

Bay is a fine Manny heir, and if that's not enough for some people than their expectations are woefully unrealistic. Bay is one of the best at his position as a hitter.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Yes, because Manny doesn't "blow Bay away"

 

The players today are very comparable. Not at their peaks. Today.

 

Last season (only using Bay's Boston statistics, figured I'd grant him the extra lift they provide him just to make my point):

 

Manny, in his Boston days alone, had Bay beat in OPS (Manny .927 to Bay .897) and OPB (Manny .398 to Bay .370), slugging % they are virutally identical. Manny had been pretty much dogging it in Boston, and still did better in a Sox uniform in 08 than Bay did.

 

Manny, in his Dodger days - .489 OBP, .743 SLG%, 1.23 OPS. Annhilates Bay's numbers.

 

 

This season, 8 games in, Bay has the advantage on Manny. the only area Manny is considerably down from previous years is slugging percentage. Meaning that Manny is for the most part keeping up his impressive pace, while Bay is just off to an unreal start.

[TheKilo]

Defense?

[Dojji]

Can't use it because Bay was rather poor defensively in '08 but Bay took the field every time he was asked to. Manny didn't. That counts for something.

 

A lot of these metrics don't always take into account the fact that a poorer rate over more innings is sometimes better. Like the argument about a starter with a 3.5 ERA and a reliever with a 2.5 ERA.

[ORS]

That's an important distinction that can't be overlooked. Bay did take the field. Manny did need to be coddled with days off.

 

Let's look at the cumulative contribution, RC, and make it relative to how often each player took the field for Boston. Bay played 49 games and created 37 runs. That's 0.755 R/G. Manny played 100 games and created 76 runs, for 0.76 R/G. When you consider that Bay took the field more often, meaning less frequency where a bench player brought the positional production down, there was no dropoff.

 

What people love to do is look at what Manny did in LA and say, "Look at what Boston missed out on". This is a fallacy. What they got from Manny in Boston is what they were going to get given his attitude. The happy Manny in LA did not, and would not, exist in Boston.

 

At their peaks, there's no comparison, it's Manny hands down. But Manny is past his peak, and Bay is in it. In that light, they are comparable as players playing for the Boston Red Sox.

[JimEdHOF2009]

Ortiz is toast.. No wonder they went so hard after Tex... he is absolutely washed up. I think the Sox should start asking St. Louis how they feel about Bard, Buchholz, Lars Anderson, and Michael Bowden.. St. Louis has a bunch of rag-tag starters and a terrible pen with no good pitching prospects to speak of...at least none that are ML ready(Perez is overrated IMO)...

 

Pujols can only be had for a HUGE package.. I think the Sox have what it takes to do it.

[Cocos Disciples]

Ortiz is toast.. No wonder they went so hard after Tex... he is absolutely washed up. I think the Sox should start asking St. Louis how they feel about Bard, Buchholz, Lars Anderson, and Michael Bowden.. St. Louis has a bunch of rag-tag starters and a terrible pen with no good pitching prospects to speak of...at least none that are ML ready(Perez is overrated IMO)...

 

Pujols can only be had for a HUGE package.. I think the Sox have what it takes to do it.

 

Pujols isn't going anywhere.

[a700hitter]

Ortiz is toast.. No wonder they went so hard after Tex... he is absolutely washed up. I think the Sox should start asking St. Louis how they feel about Bard, Buchholz, Lars Anderson, and Michael Bowden.. St. Louis has a bunch of rag-tag starters and a terrible pen with no good pitching prospects to speak of...at least none that are ML ready(Perez is overrated IMO)...

 

Pujols can only be had for a HUGE package.. I think the Sox have what it takes to do it.

He looked just as bad early last season.

[JimEdHOF2009]

I think you are wrong Coco...the Cards are under strict budget constraints and although Pujols is the face of the franchise, he is only under contract for one more year. The Cardinals need to get some young pitching in their system and I think they would at the very least, consider listening to an offer from the Red Sox. Wellemeyer, Piniero, Walters, Lohse ....Now that Carpenter is gone for a couple of months..they have only Wainwright who is not a #4 or #5 on most teams... Their pen is absolutely abyssmal.

 

I just talked to a die hard Cardinal fan ..Pujols is his idol.. he thinks that would get it done... He follows them religiously and cites their barren farm and lack of pitching talent(starters and pen)...as well as Albert's upcoming extension alks as his reasoning.

 

Buchholz and Bard could easily be on their staff next year...if not right now.. Bard could be their closer by years end...Lars could be their 1st baseman by end of year.... This is the type of deal that could get it done IMO.

[Cocos Disciples]

He looked just as bad early last season.

 

True, but wasn't he injured at that point?

[TheKilo]

Are you kidding me?

[ORS]

He looked just as bad early last season.

He was, and for about a month and a half, from mid-April until he went on the DL with the clicking wrist, he was .300/.400/.600 typical "Big Papi".

 

He's driving the ball when he times one, so I don't think injury is an issue. Right now, he just looks like he's lost his timing, and he also looks like he's pressing. He needs to run into a few and get his confidence/swagger back.

[ORS]

Are you kidding me?

Dude, his buddy is a legit Cards fan, and he says that offer should do it.

 

Don't be hatin'.

[TedWilliams101]

If only we had just kept Carlos Pena...

[stinge]

. Don't get me wrong, love me some Papi, but no one is going to stick around forever, and if the team can get better so be it.

 

That's the same thing I said about the whole Manny situation. All the Ny fans were asking me what did I think about the trade, and how much did I miss manny? It was that and everyone telling me the red sox miss Manny. You can't miss a guy when he doesn't want to be there.It would have been a different story if the red sox would have let him walk at the end of last season and got nothing in return. But they traded for a younger more deffensive, and a good hitter in Jason By. I keprt telling all the yankee fans and baseball fans in general, nithing lasts forever. Eventually Manny's time was going to come to an end. Wether it was now, or a few years from now. Him and Papi batting 3 & 4 in the lineup wasn't going to last forever.

 

Papi is off to a slow start. He is coming off an injury from last year, so hopefully he'll turn things around. It's not like he's the only player that gets off to a slow start every year. But eventually, Papi's time is going to be up in Boston one day. I would prefer Manny at Dh over papi in the long run, that's if manny really wanted to be here.