Rice Makes the Hall on Last Try

[Cocos Disciples]

Pesky's number was retired, so they're probably easing up on the criteria anyway. Rice will get it soon.

[a700hitter]

Pesky's number was retired' date=' so they're probably easing up on the criteria anyway. Rice will get it soon.[/quote']I don't think the criteria has been eased. It was done for Pesky, because he has been with the organization in an active capacity for over 50 years. That is a very, very unusual achievement.

[rician blast]

Da ladee at Fenway sez dat Pesky has a huge pole...and she touches it at every home game...no wonder dat guy is always smilin'

[ORS]

They had 8 gold gloves apiece. Forgive me, but "vastly superior" smacks of hometown bias.

 

Dawson had more hits, home runs, doubles, triples, RBIs, runs, stolen bases, his average is higher, and his SLG is higher. Evans only beats him in OBP and OPS. If all you care about is sabermetrics, you could make a case for Evans. But let's be real: Dawson was the better player.

The gold glove count is irrelevant. I know this because Derek Jeter has 3 of them.

 

It's almost impossible to compare them as fielders. Dawson is two different players. He was a top-flight CF wearing his knees out on a concrete outfield in Montreal, and then he was an averagish, in terms of range, RF after that concrete hobbled him. Evans was a stellar RF the whole time. Dawson was probably better before he switched, but he was worse after. If you look at BB-Ref, the numbers bear this out.

 

It isn't about only caring about sabermetrics. You look at stats to determine who was better, but if you don't know how to look at them, you won't get very far in your determination. The goal of sabermetricians has been to identify which stats actually contribute to runs scoring, the whole point of the offensive side of the game.

 

Of course Dawson had more H, 2B, HR, etc, etc. Over their careers they played in about the same amount of games, but because the Hawk wouldn't take a walk, he ended up with 1000 more ABs. By lauding him for his counting stat wins, and saying Evans "only" won OBP, you are punishing Evans for doing what should be the primary goal of every batter, to not make an out. There is no clock in baseball. The game is limited by each team getting 27 outs. Dawson made a boatload more outs than Evans, 700 more. This is why despite all those counting stat wins, Evans created 100 more runs over his career. Evans was the better offensive player.

[CrespoBlows]

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9049532/Forget-OBP,-Dawson's-still-a-Hall-of-Famer

 

Ken Rosenthal's awful article defending Dawson.

[Keeper]

It isn't about only caring about sabermetrics. You look at stats to determine who was better, but if you don't know how to look at them, you won't get very far in your determination. The goal of sabermetricians has been to identify which stats actually contribute to runs scoring, the whole point of the offensive side of the game.

 

Of course Dawson had more H, 2B, HR, etc, etc. Over their careers they played in about the same amount of games, but because the Hawk wouldn't take a walk, he ended up with 1000 more ABs. By lauding him for his counting stat wins, and saying Evans "only" won OBP, you are punishing Evans for doing what should be the primary goal of every batter, to not make an out. There is no clock in baseball. The game is limited by each team getting 27 outs. Dawson made a boatload more outs than Evans, 700 more. This is why despite all those counting stat wins, Evans created 100 more runs over his career. Evans was the better offensive player.

 

Sabermetrics is a valuable tool in determining how good players are/were. But somtimes I think people put too much emphasis on it and too quickly dismiss the counting stats. I guess we just have different schools of thought. The counting stats are certainly a lot sexier, but as is the goal of sabermetrics there may be more objectivity in your school of thought. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Dojji]

Point is that when you add OBP into the mix Evans is in the same offensive category as Dawson. And Evans certainly loses nothing in a defensive comparison to Dawson. If Dawson "should" be a HoF so should Evans.

[Cocos Disciples]

I don't think the criteria has been eased. It was done for Pesky' date=' because he has been with the organization in an active capacity for over 50 years. That is a very, very unusual achievement.[/quote']

 

Either way, they're not strict rules and they can certainly be broken. Says Lucchino:

 

We inherited a set a rules that applied to this question of retiring numbers and we have looked at that and considered that to be useful but as guidelines rather than firm rules

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2008/09/1_4_6_8_9_27_42.html

[Dipre]

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9049532/Forget-OBP,-Dawson's-still-a-Hall-of-Famer

 

Ken Rosenthal's awful article defending Dawson.

 

2 things:

 

A: Rosenthal is a douche.

 

B: Why do people keep taking Gold Gloves as if they're truly worth anything when evaluating a player's defensive ability.

 

Exhibit 1: Derek Jeter.

 

Exhibit 2: Palmeiro's "Couple games played" GG fiasco.

[SCM33]

2 things:

 

A: Rosenthal is a douche.

 

B: Why do people keep taking Gold Gloves as if they're truly worth anything when evaluating a player's defensive ability.

 

Exhibit 1: Derek Jeter.

 

Exhibit 2: Palmeiro's "Couple games played" GG fiasco.

 

Your point B....

While this is true, Dawson was a very good OF GG aside.

[mvp 78]

i feel like part of my childhood has been validated. while i've been to many great games at fenway (ortiz walk-offs, pedro martinez dominating the Guardians in his heyday), my most cherished memory is of rice's last game at fenway.

 

if only i still had my "pitchers pay the price... when they face jim rice" trash can.

[riverside sluggers]

http://lateshow.cbs.com/latenight/lateshow/video_player/index/php/975135.phtml

 

Rice and Henderson did the top 10 on Letterman

[Dojji]

Your point B....

While this is true, Dawson was a very good OF GG aside.

 

Plenty of room for Dawson to be a fine outfielder and not in Evans' league. Evans was up there with Al Kaline and Roberto Clemente as a defender. A lot of great OF's aren't as good as those guys.

[Cocos Disciples]

http://lateshow.cbs.com/latenight/lateshow/video_player/index/php/975135.phtml

 

Rice and Henderson did the top 10 on Letterman

 

They should stick to being HOFers.