Ortiz: "Manny had to Leave"

[TheKilo]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3699047

 

"The Manny situation was a tough situation for the team, for us the teammates, for him as a player," Ortiz said. "He was trying to get to be out, everybody knows, it's not news, for the past few years and it was something that it was getting worse and worse and worse every year."

 

"Everything started one day that I told Manny: 'Hey look, look at the numbers that you have put up your whole career, and you have never been able to win an MVP, there's a reason why,'" Ortiz said. "And the media is our family."

 

"The Manny situation was a tough situation for the team, for us the teammates, for him as a player," Ortiz said. "He was trying to get to be out, everybody knows, it's not news, for the past few years and it was something that it was getting worse and worse and worse every year."

 

The Red Sox made the playoffs but eventually lost to the Tampa Bay Rays in the American League Championship Series. Would they have won it all with Ramirez?

 

"Probably," Ortiz said. "I'm not going to lie to you, probably."

 

Not a fan of the last quote here. Ortiz doesn't exactly cover himself in glory.

[Cocos Disciples]

I've already voiced my opinion on the last quote, but I disagree mainly because of Bay's numbers.

 

Also, anyone see/hear Bill Lee's rant on Manny? http://www.bostonscore.com/featured/i-think-bill-lee-likes-manny/10016042.html

[naptownsoxfan]

No matter how Ortiz feels it is better for the club to keep those feelings to himself. Bay is your teammate now not Manny.

[castigs850]

First off, let me say f*** manny. He was my favorite Red Sox player. And he could have gotten his number retired had he kept his mouth shut, which is what he said he wanted last offseason. He blew it. But, i do think that had he stayed on this team we would have won it all. Bay had great numbers, and he did a lot for this team down the stretch, and im a fan of the way he plays; but Manny creates a different atmosphere, he hits in a different spot in the lineup, he does different things. I think that had he stayed, and the Red Sox just ignored them like they always have, he would have come back, said something that no one understands but everyone thinks is funny, and he would have hit. Everything we have seen through the years backs up this point. He has always made a stink, and he has always come back.

In short, he is a dousche for how he acted, but IMO we were a better team with him hitting 4th

[redsoxrules]

Interesting article because I remember reading a similar article somewhere else and to that same question ortiz answered , probaly, probalby not we'll never know

 

EDIT ..and heres the article

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2008/11/12/ortiz_goes_to_bat_for_charity/

 

Asked if the Sox would have won the World Series with Ram?rez, he smiled and said, "I don't know. Probably. Probably not."

 

Which one?

 

"I'll leave it up to you guys," he said.

 

so who's right?

[Dipre]

No matter how Ortiz feels it is better for the club to keep those feelings to himself. Bay is your teammate now not Manny.

 

Sometimes, the truth needs to be spoken, sir.

 

Except for the last quote, it was a viable way to voice his opinion.

[naptownsoxfan]

Sometimes, the truth needs to be spoken, sir.

 

Except for the last quote, it was a viable way to voice his opinion.

 

Sure tell your friends, your family, other teammates but not the media...nothing good ever comes out of that.

[Dipre]

Sure tell your friends' date=' your family, other teammates but not the media...nothing good ever comes out of that.[/quote']

 

If you mean from the last quote, then yes, otherwise it was a perfectly valid statement that offended no one, and something us fans have a right to know.

[a700hitter]

They were a better team with Manny. There's no mystery about that. From the day he launched one over the monster on his first swing in a Boston uniform, it was obvious that he is a special talent. Would the Sox have won a third championship if he had stayed, yes, it is very possible that they would have won. There's nothing wrong with Ortiz expressing that thought. Manny let him and the rest of his Red Sox team mates down by acting like a punk after pocketing $160 million of the team's money.

[schillingouttheks]

They were a better team with Manny. There's no mystery about that. From the day he launched one over the monster on his first swing in a Boston uniform' date=' it was obvious that he is a special talent. Would the Sox have won a third championship if he had stayed, yes, it is very possible that they would have won. There's nothing wrong with Ortiz expressing that thought. Manny let him and the rest of his Red Sox team mates down by acting like a punk after pocketing $160 million of the team's money.[/quote']

 

I sincerely doubt that Manny would have significantly outplayed Bay, considering the incredibly numbers that Bay put up for us this postseason. At least not enough to have brought another championship to Boston. The problem was not in LF.

[Dojji]

Would the Sox have won a third championship if he had stayed' date=' yes, it is very possible that they would have won. [/quote']

 

I didn't know Manny was a starting pitcher.

[Paradisecity]

I didn't know Manny was a starting pitcher.

 

 

Seriously.

 

Or a reliever...

 

or a catcher...

[example1]

This is an absurd discussion and an absurd statement by Ortiz. There is no way of knowing whether having Manny would have given them a WS. In fact, there's no way to know whether they make the playoffs with Manny on the team. Who the hell knows? Maybe if Manny stays then something else in the universe changes and Beckett or Lester gets injured and can't pitch in the playoffs. This is just crazy 20/20 hindsight.

 

Anyone who implies that Jason Bay is the reason this team lost is stuck on emotional rather than logical revisionist history.

 

From what I know, Manny was driving his teammates and coaches nuts. He was a horrible leader and threatened to simply not play. Here's a guy who said "I'm not playing" and had to be talked into joining the team on the bus. Why would we even entertain thoughts about "what if" when we ended up getting a very, very good replacement for him and stand to use his salary one someone else who might fit the definition of "special player" that I so regularly hear bantied about here.

 

I take this statement by Ortiz as being similar to Damon's statement when he joined the Yankees, something to the effect of "they have Jeter and A-Rod and now they add me to the top of that lineup, we're going to be unstoppable". It's ********. Baseball is too complex for one player to have been definitive.

[a700hitter]

I sincerely doubt that Manny would have significantly outplayed Bay' date=' considering the incredibly numbers that Bay put up for us this postseason. At least not enough to have brought another championship to Boston. The problem was not in LF.[/quote']They lost in 7 games and the final score was 3-1. It's not a stretch to think Manny could have made the difference. He let his team mates down. Bay is a nice player, but Manny changes the way that pitchers approach your lineup. Bay doesn't do that. In the end, he let his team mates down big time. The bust it all year long: Lowell and Ortiz played injured for much of the season as did others and Manny spits the bit before the stretch run. I am sure that Ortiz is very disappointed and feels let down. Whether they would have won a third championship with Manny, we will never know, but we know that they didn't win this year without him.

[Gom]

I don't know why everyone here is ripping his opinion.

 

I believe that if the Red Sox have Manny, you guys would have won back-to-back titles. Don't believe so?

 

Look at what he did for the Dodgers in the post-season. Say what you want about Manny, but he has never layed down in the playoffs.

 

I don't understand...he's asked a question, he answered it honestly, and you guys rip him for it. Talk about a bunch of hypocrites.

[Paradisecity]

I don't know why everyone here is ripping his opinion.

 

I believe that if the Red Sox have Manny, you guys would have won back-to-back titles. Don't believe so?

 

Look at what he did for the Dodgers in the post-season. Say what you want about Manny, but he has never layed down in the playoffs.

 

I don't understand...he's asked a question, he answered it honestly, and you guys rip him for it. Talk about a bunch of hypocrites.

 

When you wear a "Got Manny?" shirt one game from elimination you are kinda setting yourself up for this criticism of which you speak.

[BoSox21]

I believe that if the Red Sox have Manny, you guys would have won back-to-back titles. Don't believe so?

 

Look at what he did for the Dodgers in the post-season. Say what you want about Manny, but he has never layed down in the playoffs.

 

Jason Bay didn't exactly pull and ARod in the playoffs

[rician blast]

Said it before, will say it again...the LA Manny does not equal The Boston Manny.

 

The guy threatened to lie down if not traded. So let's say he stayed through the playoffs...isn't it possible he'd have been that despondent...or defiant...that it would have affected his play to the extent that he'd hurt the team? That's not a chance the FO could take.

 

The Sox were a better offensive team when Manny was right in the head. To assume he would have been right in the head in the 2008 stretch run and playoffs is a huge leap of faith, given his comments leading up to the trade.

 

Ortiz is welcome to say what he wants, and if he is right, that the Sox would have won it with Manny, then I suppose MANNY is DIRECTLY responsible for the Sox not winning it this year, via his being a fkn tool.

[TheKilo]

I don't know why everyone here is ripping his opinion.

 

I believe that if the Red Sox have Manny, you guys would have won back-to-back titles. Don't believe so?

 

Look at what he did for the Dodgers in the post-season. Say what you want about Manny, but he has never layed down in the playoffs.

 

I don't understand...he's asked a question, he answered it honestly, and you guys rip him for it. Talk about a bunch of hypocrites.

 

I don't think this means what you think it means, sir.

[a700hitter]

Said it before, will say it again...the LA Manny does not equal The Boston Manny.

 

The guy threatened to lie down if not traded.

Ortiz is not hypothesizing about "laying down" Manny. He's talking about Manny being Manny who mashes. That Manny could have made the difference in game 7.

[ORS]

Ortiz is not hypothesizing about "laying down" Manny. He's talking about Manny being Manny who mashes. That Manny could have made the difference in game 7.

Here's what I don't like about the "Manny would have made a difference" crowd's argument. It's always about how he would have made a difference in game 7. What it fails to address is the fact that we don't know if there is a game 7 with Manny. We don't even know if there is an October. The team responded and played some of the best baseball of the season right after he got sent out of town. I can't discount that as coincidental given the reports about their meetings prior to the trade, nor can I disregard the possibility of the opposite happening and them not making the playoffs if he's kept around.

[Paradisecity]

The Manny who mashes wouldn't have made it to the playoffs BECAUSE of Laying Down Manny.

[rician blast]

Ortiz is not hypothesizing about "laying down" Manny. He's talking about Manny being Manny who mashes. That Manny could have made the difference in game 7.

 

A couple of posters have made my point since the above...but again, Manny with his head screwed on semi-right might have made a difference, but a "tormented Boston Manny" likely would not have...that is, if he didn't totally derail their chance to make the playoffs in the first place.

[Dojji]

if he is right' date=' that the Sox would have won it with Manny, then I suppose MANNY is DIRECTLY responsible for the Sox not winning it this year, via his being a fkn tool.[/quote']

 

We have a winner.

[Gom]

Here's what I don't like about the "Manny would have made a difference" crowd's argument. It's always about how he would have made a difference in game 7. What it fails to address is the fact that we don't know if there is a game 7 with Manny. We don't even know if there is an October. The team responded and played some of the best baseball of the season right after he got sent out of town. I can't discount that as coincidental given the reports about their meetings prior to the trade' date=' nor can I disregard the possibility of the opposite happening and them not making the playoffs if he's kept around.[/quote']

 

True. However, my thing is Ortiz is entitled to say what he wants, and people are ripping him for his opinion. Would you rather he lie?

[TheKilo]

True. However' date=' my thing is Ortiz is entitled to say what he wants, and people are ripping him for his opinion. Would you rather he lie?[/quote']

 

That's not being a hypocrite, sir.

[BoSox21]

A big reason, and perhaps the main reason, the Sox didn't win is because everytime the 3rd spot in the lineup came up, a guy who hit like a pitcher came up to bat. Something bugged me about Ortiz this season, he seemed to blame everything but himself for his struggles. Complaining about the wrist, complaining about balls and strikes, complaining about no Manny.

 

Jason Bay did his job. Ortiz wanted Manny there hitting like he did in LA so he could pick up the slack when Ortiz left guys on base.

[Gom]

Maybe I didn't make myself clear. The fans...you guys...are the hypocrites. You want players to be honest and come clean, and when they do, you guys rip them and say they should shut up. Can't have it both ways.

[TheKilo]

Maybe I didn't make myself clear. The fans...you guys...are the hypocrites. You want players to be honest and come clean' date=' and when they do, you guys rip them and say they should shut up. Can't have it both ways.[/quote']

 

How is it being hypocritical when the comments by said athlete are not productive in the least? We don't have the right to be honest with our opinions on what they have to say? Can't have it both ways.

 

FTR, I think the way Ortiz handled this scenario is 100000000x better than the way Schilling handled it.

[ORS]

Maybe I didn't make myself clear. The fans...you guys...are the hypocrites. You want players to be honest and come clean' date=' and when they do, you guys rip them and say they should shut up. Can't have it both ways.[/quote']

Sure you can. You deal only in absolutes, Gom, so this won't make much sense to you, but there is a line that shouldn't be crossed with the honesty. That line is the threshold to the clubhouse door. Anything that could impact team chemistry, anything that could result in a clubhouse divide, should not come out to the media. Want to be honest about how much you hate (or like) the rival? Have at it. Want to let us know what a scumbag (or unfair scapegoat) a guy at the center of a leaguewide scandal is? We're all ears. But when an athlete crosses the line, he's stupid. The comment that they "probably" win with Manny isn't an innocuous bit of honesty. Manny Ramirez replaces only one player on that roster, Jason Bay. Does this comment help or hurt the relationship between Jason Bay and David Ortiz?