Jeter Worst SS According To Penn Study

[Gom]

Jeter struggled early on last season. His arm is very strong. With the exception of the first few weeks last year, he is accurate. He turns the double play well. He is possibly the best shortstop in the game when it comes to balls in the air. His range is possibly the worst of any regular shortstop in the game.

 

What keeps people from realizing his overall sub-average play is that when he gets to the ball, you are usually out. When a player like Knoblauch or Steve Sax made errors, it was throwing errors. When you boot the ball, people remember that. However, when you just don't get to it, people don't realize it. The infield, the play is over before most fans know it. It's not like the outfield, when you can actually easily see a bad route to the ball. Most fans don't realize that Melky Cabrera actually takes very bad routes to the ball. Compared to Bernie Williams, he looks good, and ask anyone about Melky, and they tell you he has a great arm. That's because you see his throws, not his routes, unless you are lucky to get to see a lot of games in person.

 

Just agree that Jeter is a poor fielder, and let the argument die. There isn't a Sox fan here who wouldn't want Jeter on his team instead of Lugo. That's like saying we'd rather have Giambi than Ortiz. I mean, Giambi can still somewhat play first base.

 

Silly, stupid thread.

[TheKilo]

It could be worse' date=' we could have Julio Lugo.[/quote']

 

Lugo is better defensively.

 

I'm not going to sit here and pretend Lugo is better than Jeter, but I will say this:

 

Lugo at $9mm is not that much of a worse value than Jeter at $20mm.

[das11209]

It took a study to figure out that Jeter is the worst short-stop? Don't they have Yes network? I watched almost all Yankee games - Jeter was horrible on the field. He and Giambi were quite a combo to watch.

 

Edit - and it's not like he was usual great with the bat. Did not even show-up in the post-season.

[Gom]

It took a study to figure out that Jeter is the worst short-stop? Don't they have Yes network? I watched almost all Yankee games - Jeter was horrible on the field. He and Giambi were quite a combo to watch.

 

Edit - and it's not like he was usual great with the bat. Did not even show-up in the post-season.

See, that's where I disagree with you. It's tough to see range on TV.

[BudLight]

JB

 

I guess it depends on your statistical viewpoint. If you are looking at strictly RF, he does "suck", but if you look at FPCT, he is definitely middle of the road in the AL.

[BudLight]

It took a study to figure out that Jeter is the worst short-stop? Don't they have Yes network? I watched almost all Yankee games - Jeter was horrible on the field. He and Giambi were quite a combo to watch.

 

Edit - and it's not like he was usual great with the bat. Did not even show-up in the post-season.

 

das

 

I believe the study was all inclusive of Jeter's career, not just 2007 or the 2007 post season. He is a career .309 hitter in the post season, IMHO, that's pretty good.

[CrespoBlows]

Lugo is better defensively.

 

I'm not going to sit here and pretend Lugo is better than Jeter, but I will say this:

 

Lugo at $9mm is not that much of a worse value than Jeter at $20mm.

 

Depends on what Julio Lugo we are talking about.

[Paradisecity]

Because Jeter is an excellent player and a WINNER. When people try to discredit his abilities and achievements with this ridiculous argument' date=' it pinches a nerve. And despite what you guys like to say and whatever defensive numbers you throw out there, he's not a bad shortstop at all. He does have 2 gold gloves. Granted, the competition wasn't at it's peak and they came after A-Rod switched positions, but he did still beat out 13 other AL shortstops those 2 years...including Nomar/Cabrera, and Renteria. The only thing that Red Sox Nation's attempts to put Jeter down does, other than irritate me, is prove just how good Jeter is. To draw the kind of negative attention he gets speaks volumes. Bad players don't get booed. Well thats not true, but not by opposing fans...[/quote']

 

 

I dont think that you have your pulse on why so many of us hate Jeter, or THAT so many of us hate Jeter. I liken him very much to an aging version of Tom Brady, though its difficult because Brady has a much greater impact on his game as a quarterback, so his praise/criticism will vary accordingly.

 

Jeter is a very good player. There was a time where he was one of the top couple in the game. But that does not mean he is not overrated. His gold gloves are a JOKE, absolutely laughable, and a half dozen shortstops should have won over him last time he won.

 

We can't stand Jeter because he is ballwashed at every corner. The great Derek Jeter just wins. Thats great. I guess Mike Timlin should be revered the same way?

 

The ENDLESS media and fan obsession with Derek Jeter is why people turn against him. He is a very good player, and even when he was (arguably) the best player in baseball he was still completely overrated from a media and new york fan perspective. We don't loathe Derek Jeter (I mean, he is a yankee, so we have to, but as far as the ridiculous level of it), we loate the image of Derek Jeter that is presented to us by the media and by New york fans. The article linked here is the perfect example. Look at the defenses for him? Laughable. He's a team leader. He has intangibles. Great. That has nothing to do with his play.

 

So if you want to blame someone for the "unnecessary" hating on Jeter, blame YES, ESPN, and people such as yourself who still cling on to the notion that he is a very good defensive player just because he's Derek Jeter.

 

 

 

As a side note, I personally lost a lot of respect for a player who watched the best shortstop in baseball switch positions so that he could keep his position since he's the "captain" (take a page from Michael Young) and then that same captain left that man out to dry when he endlessly struggled with the media. Despite his dragged out "Team Leader" title, IMO those championship rings had a lot more to do with the right fielder's leadership, (and the centerfielder's play) than the shortstop.

[rician blast]

His main forte is running down balls in the air and his arm. I would've love to see him in CF when the team was looking for Bernie's replacement.

 

Not to mention he's got the best fist-pump in the game.

[Paradisecity]

Yeah, its not as good as Tiger's though.

 

Can you imagine Tiger's electric fist pump on your team 500 times per year? I think there would be rolling blackouts.

[26 to 6]

So if you want to blame someone for the "unnecessary" hating on Jeter, blame YES, ESPN, and people such as yourself who still cling on to the notion that he is a very good defensive player just because he's Derek Jeter.

When did I say he was a very good defensive player? Have you read my posts in this thread?

 

As a side note, I personally lost a lot of respect for a player who watched the best shortstop in baseball switch positions so that he could keep his position since he's the "captain" (take a page from Michael Young) and then that same captain left that man out to dry when he endlessly struggled with the media. Despite his dragged out "Team Leader" title, IMO those championship rings had a lot more to do with the right fielder's leadership, (and the centerfielder's play) than the shortstop.

I understand why a lot of people feel the way you do when it comes to this issue, but I can't blame Jeter. A-Rod wanted out of Texas. So much so that he willingly switched positions to be accommodated elsewhere. I think it's unfair to solely focus on the selfish, self-centered, egotistical actions of Jeter without noting how commendable A-Rod is for making the switch. As for Jeter not doing it,can you blame him? A close friend of yours publicly throws you under the bus in an interview...you really expect him to go out of his way and move from the position that he has earned through his championships, contract, and accolades to accommodate such a person? Would you...

[ORS]

... but I can't blame Jeter.

Oh, we very well know that. I think it's the centerpiece of the current discussion.

 

As for Jeter not doing it,can you blame him? A close friend of yours publicly throws you under the bus in an interview...you really expect him to go out of his way and move from the position that he has earned through his championships, contract, and accolades to accommodate such a person? Would you...

I thought he was all about the rings? I thought he did what it takes to win? Such a hero should be able to rise above such petty reasoning and do what is best for his team, shouldn't he? You are mistaking the point here. We all acknowledge that Cap'n Calm Eyes has his reasons for not switching. The problem is those reasons don't jive with his lauded team first perception.

[jacksonianmarch]

Lugo is better defensively.

 

I'm not going to sit here and pretend Lugo is better than Jeter, but I will say this:

 

Lugo at $9mm is not that much of a worse value than Jeter at $20mm.

 

Lugo and his .230BA and sub .650OPS is no bargain at any price. Dont try to fool yourself.

[Jayhawk Bill]

JB

 

I guess it depends on your statistical viewpoint. If you are looking at strictly RF, he does "suck", but if you look at FPCT, he is definitely middle of the road in the AL.

 

Lugo is a very good offensive shortstop if you look at stolen bases. He was the best in the AL in 2007, in fact, over twice as good as Derek Jeter.

 

Evaluating fielders by fielding percentage is roughly as rational as evaluating hitters by their stolen bases. Yeah, errors matter some; yeah, sometimes stolen bases help. Either stat tells so little of the total story as to be useless in isolation.

 

Given that Derek Jeter does "suck" on many more advanced fielding metrics, let's not try to excuse him for missing several dozens of ground balls completely each year because he made roughly one dozen fewer errors than the errors leader at shortstop for the American League.

[TheKilo]

Lugo and his .230BA and sub .650OPS is no bargain at any price. Dont try to fool yourself.

 

Lugo, in the second half of last season, put up these numbers:

 

.280/.322/.406/.728

 

Those numbers are more than serviceable, and more in line with his career statistics:

 

.271/.333/.395/.728

 

Taking defensive statistics into account, Lugo at $9mm is certainly a comparable value to Jeter at $20mm. Don't try to fool yourself.

 

You really think Jeter is worth $20mm?

[yankees228]

As for my opinion on Jeter's defensive ability, I would say that he is definitely bottom ten, and most likely bottom five although I would want to take more of a look at the numbers before I say anything specific. I come to this conclusion as a Yankee fan because I put absolutely no stock in the intangibles argument.

[Gom]

Lugo, in the second half of last season, put up these numbers:

 

.280/.322/.406/.728

 

Those numbers are more than serviceable, and more in line with his career statistics:

 

.271/.333/.395/.728

 

Taking defensive statistics into account, Lugo at $9mm is certainly a comparable value to Jeter at $20mm. Don't try to fool yourself.

 

You really think Jeter is worth $20mm?

Yes. Why? Cause it aint my money. I never cared about salary, and unless their is a cap, I never will. I hate Cashman whining about the Yankees payroll. Go manage the Pirates.

 

Jeter is worth what anyone is willing to pay him. Baseball players, comparitively speaking, don't make what they deserve in the beginning, and then are overpaid later on in their careers. Say what you want about Wang and Cano, but those two guys last year carried the Yankees at points and made less than Arod's personal strippers.

 

My team isn't under a salary cap. Neither is yours. The only time I care about salary is if it gets in the way of getting other guys. That's it.

 

To weigh in on this argument, Jeter was, and is, a better value than Lugo. He's a fan favorite, i.e., he puts butts in the seats, he brings to the team in marketing probably twice his salary in a year, and he outperforms Lugo in pretty much every facet of the game. No comparison.

[Paradisecity]

Kilo- you are forgetting the dollar value of intangibles. Last I checked,the going rate on intangibles was about 1.5 Million per year.

 

 

 

To be serious though, If Jeter isn't worth the 20M to that team he's damn close. Merchandising alone helps pay the bill.

[rician blast]

A-Rod wanted out of Texas. So much so that he willingly switched positions to be accommodated elsewhere. I think it's unfair to solely focus on the selfish' date=' self-centered, egotistical [/i']actions of Jeter without noting how commendable A-Rod is for making the switch.

 

My thoughts:

 

(1) I never thought any less of Jeter for not offering to make the move to a new position...in fact I think he did the right thing. It's his position, they want him to move, they should move him, but he had no responsibility to offer up such a position change.

 

(2) As for ARod's supposedly commendable actions I viewed his decision to move to third as pathetic and desperate.

 

When we were all growing up and playing ball what was the most prestigious position on the field when we weren't pitching? Shortstop. Hands down.

 

So if you are supposedly one of the top SS in the game why would you ever agree to play 3B unless you were desperate to get out of a situation and were handicapped by your excessive contract?

[Gom]

My thoughts:

 

(1) I never thought any less of Jeter for not offering to make the move to a new position...in fact I think he did the right thing. It's his position, they want him to move, they should move him, but he had no responsibility to offer up such a position change.

 

(2) As for ARod's supposedly commendable actions I viewed his decision to move to third as pathetic and desperate.

 

When we were all growing up and playing ball what was the most prestigious position on the field when we weren't pitching? Shortstop. Hands down.

 

So if you are supposedly one of the top SS in the game why would you ever agree to play 3B unless you were desperate to get out of a situation and were handicapped by your excessive contract?

What's your point? Growing up, I'd rather be the RF on a winning team than the SS on a losing one. How is that any different? He wanted to go to the Sox first, but after that fell through, he went to the best team in the game at the time, and switched positions. I think you're making a point, but I'm not sure what it is.

[Gom]

To be serious though' date=' If Jeter isn't worth the 20M to that team he's damn close. Merchandising alone helps pay the bill.[/quote']

I'm sure if you were to calculate on and off the field, Jeter would be a wash or a slight loss. Lugo is almost a total loss. Once again..no comparison. You guys make money on Papelbon. You lose money on Lugo and Drew. Whatever. Who gives a s***? It's not our money anyways. Don't give me this crap about player salaries. Why do you care about what a bunch of millionaire players get from billionaire owners? Seriously? If you can't compete, you shouldn't be in the league.

[Paradisecity]

I'm sure if you were to calculate on and off the field' date=' Jeter would be a wash or a slight loss. Lugo is almost a total loss. Once again..no comparison. You guys make money on Papelbon. You lose money on Lugo and Drew. Whatever. Who gives a s***? It's not our money anyways. Don't give me this crap about player salaries. Why do you care about what a bunch of millionaire players get from billionaire owners? Seriously? If you can't compete, you shouldn't be in the league.[/quote']

 

I'm pretty sure I wasn't giving anyone any crap about player salaries. Thanks though.

[jacksonianmarch]

Lugo, in the second half of last season, put up these numbers:

 

.280/.322/.406/.728

 

Those numbers are more than serviceable, and more in line with his career statistics:

 

.271/.333/.395/.728

 

Taking defensive statistics into account, Lugo at $9mm is certainly a comparable value to Jeter at $20mm. Don't try to fool yourself.

 

You really think Jeter is worth $20mm?

 

He batted .197 before the AS break. He only hit .280 based upon one strong month (July). He totalled .237 for the yr. Cmon, you are better than that.

 

That being said, it isnt like we are talking about AGon vs Jeter here. This is a marginal fielder and a poor hitter vs a poor fielder and a solid hitter who is also captain and merchandising magnet. It isnt even close in terms of who is the bargain. Hell, Lowrie would be better than Lugo right now and he isnt even projected to be a SS, and he'd make what, 300K? Thats a bargain. Lugo at 8mil? You got ripped.

[Gom]

He batted .197 before the AS break. He only hit .280 based upon one strong month (July). He totalled .237 for the yr. Cmon, you are better than that.

 

That being said, it isnt like we are talking about AGon vs Jeter here. This is a marginal fielder and a poor hitter vs a poor fielder and a solid hitter who is also captain and merchandising magnet. It isnt even close in terms of who is the bargain. Hell, Lowrie would be better than Lugo right now and he isnt even projected to be a SS, and he'd make what, 300K? Thats a bargain. Lugo at 8mil? You got ripped.

Now...this is OWNED. Not like Jayhawk Bill. Way to go JM.

[Cocos Disciples]

I agree that Lugo at 9 mil is a ripoff. Jeter at 20 mil isn't exactly a bargain either. The question is, is Jeter more than twice as good as Lugo? I would say yes, he is.

 

Jeter in 07: .322 BA, .388 OBP, .452 SLG, 53.3 VORP

Lugo in 07: .237 BA, .294 OBP, .349 SLG, -1.3 VORP

 

Not even close. Lugo has the edge in speed and fielding, but in hitting, they're not even comparable.

[ARod2212]

I can live with Jeter's fielding. If he gets to the ball, he makes the play. His range isn't good, but he's not f***ing up routine grounders. He's also very good with pop-ups and relays, two important aspects for a shortstop.

 

There is no way he deserved the Gold Glove awards. I just think the talk of how bad he is defensively is exaggerated. I think the fact that he's a smart ballplayer is undervalued when people are talking about his defense. Knowing where to throw, where to position yourself, when to make calls are all very important aspects of playing the position, and he is good at that.

 

(Of course, A-Rod was better. I pushed for Jeter in centerfield when we got Rodriguez.)

[TheKilo]

He batted .197 before the AS break. He only hit .280 based upon one strong month (July). He totalled .237 for the yr. Cmon' date=' you are better than that.[/quote']

 

He only hit .237 based off on one bad month. What's your point? Are you telling me that small sample sizes shouldn't come into play?

 

I could give a s*** less if he did it "based off one good month" (which isn't true, he hit over .280 in August). The fact is he did what he did in the second half. Are players not allowed adjustment periods?

 

That being said, it isnt like we are talking about AGon vs Jeter here. This is a marginal fielder and a poor hitter vs a poor fielder and a solid hitter who is also captain and merchandising magnet. It isnt even close in terms of who is the bargain. Hell, Lowrie would be better than Lugo right now and he isnt even projected to be a SS, and he'd make what, 300K? Thats a bargain. Lugo at 8mil? You got ripped.

 

Who said anything about merchandising? I'd like to know where this argument came from. I am talking about on the field production.

 

Fact - Jeter is a much better offensive shortstop

Fact - Lugo is a better fielder and better baserunner than Jeter

 

The case could then be made that the value of Jeter at $20mm is not so much higer than Lugo at $9mm. Look, I never said Lugo was the better value, just that the difference isn't as vast as many would like to believe.

[ORS]

You are only comparing their offensive contribution with VORP. Win Shares has it 24 to 12. Don't take this to mean I'm arguing in favor of Lugo's value. I think if one were to plot $/WS you'd find the graph to take on an exponential shape toward the high end, meaning the value is not strictly linear. Those in the top 5-10% are worth more than their value on the line of best fit. Just my opinion.

[rician blast]

What's your point? Growing up' date=' I'd rather be the RF on a winning team than the SS on a losing one. How is that any different? He wanted to go to the Sox first, but after that fell through, he went to the best team in the game at the time, and switched positions. I think you're making a point, but I'm not sure what it is.[/quote']

 

 

OK, I'll try again...ARod's acceptance to play 3rd base, IMO, was more a move of desperation...because of his wanting out of Texas and the fact that his huge salary precluded so many other teams from even considering him...than it was a "commendable" action. What choice did he have?

[26 to 6]

My thoughts:

 

(1) I never thought any less of Jeter for not offering to make the move to a new position...in fact I think he did the right thing. It's his position, they want him to move, they should move him, but he had no responsibility to offer up such a position change.

 

(2) As for ARod's supposedly commendable actions I viewed his decision to move to third as pathetic and desperate.

 

When we were all growing up and playing ball what was the most prestigious position on the field when we weren't pitching? Shortstop. Hands down.

 

So if you are supposedly one of the top SS in the game why would you ever agree to play 3B unless you were desperate to get out of a situation and were handicapped by your excessive contract?

You're absolutely right. I made the point about A-Rod commendable to help in my Jeter arguement ..but yeah after the Boston deal fell through it was simply desperation for A-Rod.

 

Also with Jeter, we really can't call him selfish until it's revealed that he was asked to move fofr A-Rod and declined. Nobody mentioned anything to Jeter about it. It was Alex who wanted out of Texas and it was Alex who moved. Cash, Torre, nobody (I guess really just Cash, the whole trade went down so quickly...) even considered asking Jeter to move. If the Yankees were in pursuit of A-Rod and the only way he could be had is if he were to play shortstop, and Jeter was approached with it who knows what he would have done. I'm sure either way he wouldn't have wanted to move but nobody can say for sure whether or not he would have declined. And honestly, if it were that serious he really wouldn't have had an option. Nowhere in contracts does it guarantee a player a certain amount of playing time at a particular position. But it's just unfair to call Jeter selfish for not moving when he was probably never even approached and asked to move.

 

And I know it must seem terribly that I'm a Yankee fan-boy on Jeter's dick, and I know that's how a lot of you see it...but c'mon..you guys are Sox fans ripping on Jeter, I have a right, almost a responsibility to to argue in his defense.