Jeter Worst SS According To Penn Study

[MDF3530]

Link

 

We need an Ivy Leaguer to tell us this?

[Gom]

No, it's been known. However, he's one of the best shortstops in the game overall. This is getting tired. Who would you rather have at short than Jeter? At most, a handful. That's like saying Manny is a terrible left-fielder, which he is. I'd still rather have him than pretty much any other left fielder.

[MDF3530]

No' date=' it's been known. However, he's one of the best shortstops in the game overall. This is getting tired. Who would you rather have at short than Jeter? At most, a handful.[/quote']

That's true. I'd still take him over any of the middle infielders on my Sox.

 

I guess that when you started watching baseball in the 1980s like I did, Ozzie Smith is the gold standard, defensively at least, in terms of shortstops. Even the manager of my Sox, Ozzie Guillen, was very good with the glove in his day.

[26 to 6]

I really hate this argument. Drives me crazy when the Sox fans take it and run...

[TheKilo]

I really hate this argument. Drives me crazy when the Sox fans take it and run...

 

Because it has merit?

[Gom]

No, because it's meaningless. That's like us saying that Ortiz and Manny can't field or run for s***. It's not their game. Jeter has never been touted as an excellent fielder. His Gold Glove was a joke. So what? Only morons and idiots care that Ortiz is just a DH and Manny doesn't steal 50 bases a season. It's no different. Wakefield only throws 5 mph. Who cares as long as he wins?

 

The point is, I watch a lot of games at the Stadium, and I'll take the one extra hit that MIGHT have been stopped and thrown out by a Gold Glove caliber every week to two weeks as long as he hits the way he does. Would you rather have Coco Crisp in left or Manny? Both in the field and at the plate. Silly argument.

[26 to 6]

Because Jeter is an excellent player and a WINNER. When people try to discredit his abilities and achievements with this ridiculous argument, it pinches a nerve. And despite what you guys like to say and whatever defensive numbers you throw out there, he's not a bad shortstop at all. He does have 2 gold gloves. Granted, the competition wasn't at it's peak and they came after A-Rod switched positions, but he did still beat out 13 other AL shortstops those 2 years...including Nomar/Cabrera, and Renteria. The only thing that Red Sox Nation's attempts to put Jeter down does, other than irritate me, is prove just how good Jeter is. To draw the kind of negative attention he gets speaks volumes. Bad players don't get booed. Well thats not true, but not by opposing fans...

[schillingouttheks]

Jeter's not a good defensive short stop. That doesn't take away from him being one of the short stops I'd like to have on my team. I'm pretty sure that's all people are trying to say.

[ksushi]

Jeter is a liability in the field and should have been moved to third instead of A-rod. Everyone has known that for awhile, this isn't news. That said, Jeter at the plate waaaayyy makes up for Jeter in the field and everyone knows it. He is captain clutch.

[a700hitter]

Jeter is a liability in the field and should have been moved to third instead of A-rod. Everyone has known that for awhile' date=' this isn't news. That said, Jeter at the plate waaaayyy makes up for Jeter in the field and everyone knows it. He is captain clutch.[/quote']

I'd trade the superior fielding Lugo for him.

[Fishsticks]

His main forte is running down balls in the air and his arm. I would've love to see him in CF when the team was looking for Bernie's replacement.

[26 to 6]

Absolutely. There is no disagreeing that he's not the greatest shortstop. Still, I refuse to call him a bad shortstop. As for him moving to third instead of A-Rod, I disagree. A-Rod is more talented, has a better arm, and made the transition pretty seamlessly (I personally think he should have won at least 1 gold glove that Eric Chavez got in 04 and 05..in 06 he for whatever reason was HORRIBLE defensively). Also, Jeter is pretty particular about his defensive positions. Years ago, I dont remember where (I'm thinking SI), Jeet gave an interview saying he couldnt play the corners because of how close to the batter he would be and how quickly he would have to react, and wouldn't want to play the OF because he can't jusge fly balls well ( :? ..he sure can judge those pop-ups though). Despite those words so long ago, I agree that he probably would have made a nice center fielder. I also think that in the coming years, with enough hard work and practice, he would be a perfect candidate to slide over to 1B as his range decreases even more. Once Donnie trades in that Dodger Blue for his pinstripes again, I think he could make Jeter a serviceable first baseman. But this is all moot at this point. Fact of the matter is that Jeter is the shortstop for now, and I won't do much complaining about that. I think he's fine..

[ORS]

The fact that Jeter has won GGs and was included with Ozzie Smith on the ballot for the Rawlings All-time Defensive team is the reason this article called out Jeter in the introduction of this new statistical measure. To Gom, it is universally accepted that Manny blows in LF and Ortiz is slow. It is not universally accepted by the majority of Yankee fans and the mainstream baseball media that Jeter isn't good in the field, and he is touted (see the GGs et al mentioned above) as an excellent fielder. Hence the article. To 26, please explain how researchers at UPenn equates to Sox fans trying to besmirch Jeter? I don't see it. Face it, you are the reason the article was written.

[TheKilo]

The fact that Jeter has won GGs and was included with Ozzie Smith on the ballot for the Rawlings All-time Defensive team is the reason this article called out Jeter in the introduction of this new statistical measure. To Gom' date=' it is universally accepted that Manny blows in LF and Ortiz is slow. It is not universally accepted by the majority of Yankee fans and the mainstream baseball media that Jeter isn't good in the field, and he is touted (see the GGs et al mentioned above) as an excellent fielder. Hence the article. To 26, please explain how researchers at UPenn equates to Sox fans trying to besmirch Jeter? I don't see it. Face it, you are the reason the article was written.[/quote']

 

A+

[Gom]

The fact that Jeter has won GGs and was included with Ozzie Smith on the ballot for the Rawlings All-time Defensive team is the reason this article called out Jeter in the introduction of this new statistical measure. To Gom' date=' it is universally accepted that Manny blows in LF and Ortiz is slow. It is not universally accepted by the majority of Yankee fans and the mainstream baseball media that Jeter isn't good in the field, and he is touted (see the GGs et al mentioned above) as an excellent fielder. Hence the article. To 26, please explain how researchers at UPenn equates to Sox fans trying to besmirch Jeter? I don't see it. Face it, you are the reason the article was written.[/quote']

Damn, that was good. I guess pigs can fly now. Manny sucks in the field, so does Ortiz, and Jeter isn't that great at short. His range blows, but he's as good as I've seen at pop ups. His jump and throw at short is a normal stop and throw by a good defensive shortstop. I never said Jeter is a great fielder, but overall, offense/defense/running, etc., I'd take him over most shortstops of the game. Can we end this silly discussion yet?

 

By the way, Yankee fans who don't realize that he's a poor defensive player are clueless.

[TheKilo]

Damn, that was good. I guess pigs can fly now. Manny sucks in the field, so does Ortiz, and Jeter isn't that great at short. His range blows, but he's as good as I've seen at pop ups. His jump and throw at short is a normal stop and throw by a good defensive shortstop. I never said Jeter is a great fielder, but overall, offense/defense/running, etc., I'd take him over most shortstops of the game. Can we end this silly discussion yet?

 

By the way, Yankee fans who don't realize that he's a poor defensive player are clueless.

 

Agree.

[26 to 6]

A+

F

 

Off the wood Tarzan

It is not universally accepted by the majority of Yankee fans and the mainstream baseball media that Jeter isn't good in the field, and he is touted (see the GGs et al mentioned above) as an excellent fielder.

Who said he was an excellent fielder? I refuse to call him a bad shortstop, but I sure as hell would never say he is an excellent fielder. I believe serviceable is the word I used

[MDF3530]

Who said he was an excellent fielder? I refuse to call him a bad shortstop, but I sure as hell would never say he is an excellent fielder. I believe serviceable is the word I used

He's as good defensively as half the SSs in the league. And half the SSs in the league are serviceable.

 

Like I've said before, most of the guys my age grew up watching Ozzie Smith, so he's our gold standard at SS defensively.

[ORS]

Who said he was an excellent fielder? I refuse to call him a bad shortstop' date=' but I sure as hell would never say he is an excellent fielder. I believe serviceable is the word I used[/quote']

Plenty do. You may not be one of them, but plenty do, and I include you in that group if you refuse to call him a bad SS. He ranks near the bottom in pretty much all modern defensive measures relative to the other starting SS. Relative to the typical starting SS, he is bad. This doesn't mean he's no good, and I'd take him on the Sox without hesitation. He's one of the best offensive SS playing, and his offensive ability far outweighs his defensive liability. It's just that, the offense and defense are two separate components and should be evaluated as such.

[26 to 6]

Plenty do. You may not be one of them' date=' but plenty do, and I include you in that group if you refuse to call him a bad SS. He ranks near the bottom in pretty much all modern defensive measures relative to the other starting SS. Relative to the typical starting SS, he is bad. This doesn't mean he's no good, and I'd take him on the Sox without hesitation. He's one of the best offensive SS playing, and his offensive ability far outweighs his defensive liability. It's just that, the offense and defense are two separate components and should be evaluated as such.[/quote']

Did you really just say that since I refuse to call him a bad shortstop that it means I consider him an excellent shortstop? There is no middle ground? There is no in-between? Is this some sort of sick joke!?

[26 to 6]

He's as good defensively as half the SSs in the league. And half the SSs in the league are serviceable.

 

Like I've said before, most of the guys my age grew up watching Ozzie Smith, so he's our gold standard at SS defensively.

Absolutely and rightfully so. Ozzie is a player I happen to personally admire a lot. When I was first REALLLLY getting into baseball he was winding down his career, but nonetheless he is as brilliant a defensive player as there ever was. But shooting a player's abilities down because he doesnt match up to Ozzie Smith is just flat out unfair. Not too many people can play shortstop like the Wizard.

[Gom]

His range is poor. He has a decent arm, and is phenomenal at balls in the air. The reason why Yankee fans have such a difficult time saying he is a poor fielder is because he is an excellent athlete. It doesn't seem to click in their eyes, and no one remembers the errors. Everyone remembers the flip in Oakland, or the diving in the stands against Boston [i was there, what a catch].

 

This is silly and stupid. It makes little difference, in one person's eyes, he's terrible, in another, he's average, etc. He's still on of the best shortstops in the game overall. This was like us saying that Nomar in his prime wasn't good. He was outright phenomenal, and for a short time, was better than Jeter. Case closed.

[jacksonianmarch]

It could be worse, we could have Julio Lugo.

[26 to 6]

Very true.

[ORS]

Did you really just say that since I refuse to call him a bad shortstop that it means I consider him an excellent shortstop? There is no middle ground? There is no in-between? Is this some sort of sick joke!?

No, it doesn't mean there is no middle ground. My point is that you won't change your opinion of him despite statistical measure to the contrary. Thus, you find yourself in the same group in my eyes.

[schillingouttheks]

It could be worse' date=' we could have Julio Lugo.[/quote']

 

Annnnnnnnnnnd here comes the irrelevant smartass comment? I think so.

[BudLight]

anyone, regardless of their team affiliation, cannot argue the fact that statistically, Jeter is a middle of the road shortstop, defensively. However, offensively is where he makes the difference. You can't argue with his offensive numbers throughout his career. If he were a second baseman this discussion would never take place. What amazes me the most is throughout all of these postings I have not seen the word "intangibles".

[schillingouttheks]

That's probably because most of us don't buy into "intangibles."

 

Depends on how you define it though.

[26 to 6]

No' date=' it doesn't mean there is no middle ground. My point is that you won't change your opinion of him despite statistical measure to the contrary. Thus, you find yourself in the same group in my eyes.[/quote']

Very well then. In years past the numbers have swayed me from believing he was an exceptional shortstop to my current stance on him. But regardless whatever numbers you throw out there you won't get me to say he's a bad shortstop, because he simply is not. Nor is he a great shortstop. He is certainly on the lower end of the scale, but not to the point where I will label him terribly detrimental. He will play a serviceable shortstop, that's all I'm saying. I still however refuse to say he's bad, because there are far worse.

 

anyone, regardless of their team affiliation, cannot argue the fact that statistically, Jeter is a middle of the road shortstop, defensively. However, offensively is where he makes the difference. You can't argue with his offensive numbers throughout his career. If he were a second baseman this discussion would never take place. What amazes me the most is throughout all of these postings I have not seen the word "intangibles".

Absolutely. And with all of that being said; middle of the road shortstop, offensive success, intangibles, etc., that is a fair portrayal. However being a "middle of the road shortstop," which I will certainly acknowledge, doesn't mean he is a BAD shortstop. He very simply is not. Nor is he very good.

[Jayhawk Bill]

anyone' date=' regardless of their team affiliation, cannot argue the fact that statistically, Jeter is a middle of the road shortstop, defensively. [/quote']

 

I'll take that argument. Jeter isn't "middle of the road." Jeter sucks at defense.