Coco's future

[BoSox21]

It's getting a lot of play but is it really unexpected? He might be the best defensive centerfielder in baseball right now and isn't as atrocious of an offensive player as he's made out to be so why would he be happy being a benchwarmer?

[Gom]

Coco's future is on another team. If he makes the team over Ellsbury, than that is a serious blow to the Sox. That means that Ellsbury really isn't all that good.

[das11209]

It's getting a lot of play but is it really unexpected? He might be the best defensive centerfielder in baseball right now and isn't as atrocious of an offensive player as he's made out to be so why would he be happy being a benchwarmer?

 

May be because noone else wants him in their line-up?

[BoSox21]

May be because noone else wants him in their line-up?

 

or perhaps Boston's asking price is too high

[das11209]

or perhaps Boston's asking price is too high

 

I don't think so. For example - I don't think Theo has got lot of calls - 'We want Coco - let's negotiate'. No-one else wants him despite the Sox fans in this site thinking very highly of him.

 

We had more chance of shipping him last year - it will be hard now for sure as all teams are set in CF.

 

I think Coco sucks - period. If he does not want to be the 4th outfielder - screw him.

[TheKilo]

I don't think so. For example - I don't think Theo has got lot of calls - 'We want Coco - let's negotiate'. No-one else wants him despite the Sox fans in this site thinking very highly of him.

 

We had more chance of shipping him last year - it will be hard now for sure as all teams are set in CF.

 

I think Coco sucks - period. If he does not want to be the 4th outfielder - screw him.

 

What the f***?

 

It's a damn good thing you're not the Red Sox GM.

[das11209]

What the f***?

 

It's a damn good thing you're not the Red Sox GM.

 

 

You and I have historically disagreed on Coco - why would it change now.

[example1]

You and I have historically disagreed on Coco - why would it change now.

 

Hey das,

I'm one of Ellsbury's biggest fans around here. I agree that he will be an upgrade over Crisp in a number of ways that make the whole team better. I want to see Ellsbury leading off, making pitchers nervous with Pedroia and Ortiz and Manny Ramirez at the plate. Yeah, there's something to be said for not taking the bat out of their hands, but he has enough speed to be successful more than 75% of the time and that means more runs and RBIs. I think he'll get on base better than Crisp as well. Defensively I think Ellsbury could match Crisp, in that both can be gold glove caliber CFs.

 

That said, you're being WAY too hard on Crisp. I admit that he's been disappointing at times at the plate and his injuries haven't helped either. But he has played hard and held more than his end of the bargain defensively.

 

I'm sure you've seen/heard all the defensive statistics (this is an old discussion), but look at his FRAA and FRAR last year. Apparently he had an enormous defensive impact last year, considerably better than most CFs, thus making up some of his offensive liabilities.

 

He's fast, he's a switch hitter, he's affordable, he's young. Those are all things that other teams would want. I bet teams are interested but the Sox have only worked on a Crisp for ??? deal; it might take Crisp + ??? to get a good player.

 

I don't think Crisp is good enough to warrant taking up a spot in the Sox order. He'd be a GREAT 4th OF on this team, but he doesn't want that I guess. I think he would be a really solid contributer, starting every day on a few teams in baseball and I wish him the best if he moves on.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Coco's future is on another team. If he makes the team over Ellsbury' date=' than that is a serious blow to the Sox. That means that Ellsbury really isn't all that good.[/quote']

 

No that is not what it means. You like many people are down playing how good Coco Crisp is. If Jacoby Ellsbury were to get beaten out for the position he would get beaten out by the best defensive CF in the game. Obviously Crisp has some issues at the plate but one hot April and EVERYONE changes there tune. Jacoby Ellsbury has plenty of time to get worked into the mix. It is not the be-all-end-all if he doesn't start on opening day.

[mAAAbs]

I've never really liked Coco, but you have to admit his fielding is always phenomenal. He always plays 110% and you have to atleast appreciate that, even if he struggles at the plate. That being said I wonder if Coco would settle for a platoon situation? Maybe 300 ABs and a late defensive replacement when he doesn't start?

[Gom]

No that is not what it means. You like many people are down playing how good Coco Crisp is. If Jacoby Ellsbury were to get beaten out for the position he would get beaten out by the best defensive CF in the game. Obviously Crisp has some issues at the plate but one hot April and EVERYONE changes there tune. Jacoby Ellsbury has plenty of time to get worked into the mix. It is not the be-all-end-all if he doesn't start on opening day.

No, SITN, you are the one who's being misled. He's a terrible player, and you've got blinders on. He's got a great glove. Maybe even the best glove in the game. He's a terrible offensive player. He is basically an automatic out at the plate, and when he hits it, he never gets an extra-base hit. If Ellsbury can't beat out a guy who had a .712 OPS last year, then he's simply not as good as you guys think he is.

 

You can make the same argument for Melky Cabrera. Everyone wants him to play, and although he adds some energy to the mix, I would much rather see Damon and Matsui in the game, and Melky being a late inning defensive replacement. Sorry, but I don't put a lot of emphasis on defense. The Yankees won 4 out of 5 World Series with sub-par defensive teams. Your Red Sox weren't all that great defensively either. Pedroia and Lowell are solid, and regardless of who played CF, you were solid, but you were weak everywhere else...ok, I forgot about 1B, you are pretty stong there too. You still won 2 out of the last 4 World Series.

[BoSox21]

Your Red Sox weren't all that great defensively either. Pedroia and Lowell are solid' date=' and regardless of who played CF, you were solid, but you were weak everywhere else...ok, I forgot about 1B, you are pretty stong there too. You still won 2 out of the last 4 World Series.[/quote']

 

ok, so now that you've covered just about the entire infield and 1/3rd of the outfield so care to continue? Varitek and Drew are above-average defensive players and Manny and Lugo really aren't as bad as their reputations would suggest, especially Manny at home who plays the monster perfectly

[das11209]

Hey das,

I'm one of Ellsbury's biggest fans around here. I agree that he will be an upgrade over Crisp in a number of ways that make the whole team better. I want to see Ellsbury leading off, making pitchers nervous with Pedroia and Ortiz and Manny Ramirez at the plate. Yeah, there's something to be said for not taking the bat out of their hands, but he has enough speed to be successful more than 75% of the time and that means more runs and RBIs. I think he'll get on base better than Crisp as well. Defensively I think Ellsbury could match Crisp, in that both can be gold glove caliber CFs.

 

That said, you're being WAY too hard on Crisp. I admit that he's been disappointing at times at the plate and his injuries haven't helped either. But he has played hard and held more than his end of the bargain defensively.

 

I'm sure you've seen/heard all the defensive statistics (this is an old discussion), but look at his FRAA and FRAR last year. Apparently he had an enormous defensive impact last year, considerably better than most CFs, thus making up some of his offensive liabilities.

 

He's fast, he's a switch hitter, he's affordable, he's young. Those are all things that other teams would want. I bet teams are interested but the Sox have only worked on a Crisp for ??? deal; it might take Crisp + ??? to get a good player.

 

I don't think Crisp is good enough to warrant taking up a spot in the Sox order. He'd be a GREAT 4th OF on this team, but he doesn't want that I guess. I think he would be a really solid contributer, starting every day on a few teams in baseball and I wish him the best if he moves on.

 

 

We are in complete agreement here - only thing is though I think for some reason teams are not interested in Coco even though he is great in defense and quite affordable. May be they think he is so bad in offence - that overall he should not be in everyday line-up. I think he will be a fantastic 4th OF. Now that noone wants to trade for him and he has been God aweful at the plate since he broke his finger- why can't he be happy here as a back-up? Why he is pulling a Jay Patton? He will great plenty of playing time as we have Manny and Drew in our line-up.

[das11209]

I've never really liked Coco' date=' but you have to admit his fielding is always phenomenal. He always plays 110% and you have to atleast appreciate that, even if he struggles at the plate. That being said I wonder if Coco would settle for a platoon situation? Maybe 300 ABs and a late defensive replacement when he doesn't start?[/quote']

 

I admit - just that for some reason he wants to start everyday.

[Paradisecity]

I'm just glad that he brought his trade value up enough to fetch us more than the rosin bag he was worth in the first half of his time as a Red Sox....

[Gom]

ok' date=' so now that you've covered just about the entire infield and 1/3rd of the outfield so care to continue? Varitek and Drew are above-average defensive players and Manny and Lugo really aren't as bad as their reputations would suggest, especially Manny at home who plays the monster perfectly[/quote']

The rest are average.

 

Varitek was in the bottom half of all regular catchers with a putrid .241 % of basestealers caught. His errors put him right at league average. I don't think he calls a great game or is good at framing pitches. I haven't seen enough of Drew, but from what I've seen, he's average at best. I may be wrong on him, I just haven't seen enough of him.

[Jayhawk Bill]

Varitek was in the bottom half of all regular catchers ...

 

...except that he was fifth among all MLB catchers in VORP, a pretty important metric.

 

***

 

Gom, at least you undervalue Melky Cabrera the same way that you undervalue Coco, but I'll disagree with you on both counts. Coco is an average-hitting but excellent defensive CF. Melky is...better than you credit him to be.

[Gom]

...except that he was fifth among all MLB catchers in VORP, a pretty important metric.

 

***

 

Gom, at least you undervalue Melky Cabrera the same way that you undervalue Coco, but I'll disagree with you on both counts. Coco is an average-hitting but excellent defensive CF. Melky is...better than you credit him to be.

I was stressing defense only. Showing that defense wasn't all that important. Coco is average hitting CF? By what standards? The guy had a OPS of .712. I can't do that much worse at the plate than this guy. A .382 slugging? Are you kidding me? Melky isn't that much better. He is the most overrated OF the Yankees have had in years. I'm sorry, I don't equate young with potential. It just means that a player may suck for a very long time. He doesn't have a CF's typical body, he isn't overly big, or strong. He doesn't run all that well. He isn't an instinctively good fielder. He makes a good catch or two, or throws out a runner, and the media makes him out to be the next Bernie Williams. Bernie Williams last season ended with a .768 OPS, and everyone considered him to be downright terrible. Melky is a rising superstar at a .718 OPS. What a f***ing joke.

 

Yankee fans are going to hate to hear this, but last year, Crisp was better than Melky. Much better. It's not even close. Their numbers were basically even at the plate, but Crisp has more speed and is a much better defensive player. I'd much rather have Melky, because his ceiling is higher in my opinion, but for last year only, Crisp was better.

 

If Ellsbury can't beat out a guy with a .718 OPS and he is your best offensive prospect, and this is the guy you didn't want to trade for Santana, unless you win the World Series, your front office will hear about it. Cashman is already a goner at season's end due to his idiocy in not getting the best pitcher in baseball...AND...watching him lead the Mets to the best record in the National League in his own back yard. It's pretty much a foregone conclusion.

 

The fact that I'd rather have Melky is like choosing between the last two chicks at a West Virginia townie bar at closing time. My only consolation would be I would be hanging out with ORS, and he'd get the one I rejected. :harhar:

[Mr Crunchy]

the redsox pitchers dont put a lot of priority in holding runners on base and then you have him breaking in dice k(which i feel he did a lousy job of if you want a legitimate bitch with him)...then the rest of the staff all throws hard splitters which are difficult to handle when your 16,never mind 36...

tek calls a good game

he knows his pitchers inside and out and with the exception of the handling of matsusaka this year and his inability to help josh bard in 06 he is a solid catcher and a great teamate.

he shouldve stepped up to handle wakefield rather than throw bard into the fire.

hes the captain

that was his move to make

[YAZMAN]

No' date=' SITN, you are the one who's being misled. He's a terrible player, and you've got blinders on. He's got a great glove. Maybe even the best glove in the game. He's a terrible offensive player. He is basically an automatic out at the plate, and when he hits it, he never gets an extra-base hit. If Ellsbury can't beat out a guy who had a .712 OPS last year, then he's simply not as good as you guys think he is. [/quote']

 

You can't call someone who has hit .265 over the last two years an "automatic out". And people seem to forget the guy hit around 35 points higher in the previous two seasons, with his average dipping after playing with and through a nagging thumb injury. Guess what, if you're going to break a finger, your thumb is the absolute worse one to break as a hitter. I'll wait until this year before branding him as an an absolute waste offensively.

[redsoxrules]

boston trying to deal for blanton?

 

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/wcStory?contentId=6534058&storyNumber=2

[TheKilo]

I admit - just that for some reason he wants to start everyday.

 

He's the best defensive CF in baseball, with a fairly affordable contract, and he should be entering the prime of his career.

 

Why the f*** wouldn't he want to start?

 

Anyway, at this point I would hold on to Coco unless a legit offer comes up. He would be a very, very useful player for this team this season if he stays, regardless of what some posters say.

[Jayhawk Bill]

I was stressing defense only. Showing that defense wasn't all that important.

 

Oddly, some students of baseball regard defense as important. :dunno:

 

Coco is average hitting CF? By what standards?

 

.272 - 2007 AL CF batting

.268 - 2007 Coco Crisp batting average

 

Coco's BA isn't a statistically significant difference from the mean.

 

Melky isn't that much better. He is the most overrated OF the Yankees have had in years. I'm sorry, I don't equate young with potential. It just means that a player may suck for a very long time. He doesn't have a CF's typical body, he isn't overly big, or strong. He doesn't run all that well. He isn't an instinctively good fielder. He makes a good catch or two, or throws out a runner, and the media makes him out to be the next Bernie Williams. Bernie Williams last season ended with a .768 OPS, and everyone considered him to be downright terrible. Melky is a rising superstar at a .718 OPS. What a f***ing joke.

 

We'll see. I made a point to protect your original words in my post--let's see how they look in a couple of years.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

No' date=' SITN, you are the one who's being misled. He's a terrible player, and you've got blinders on. He's got a great glove. Maybe even the best glove in the game. He's a terrible offensive player. He is basically an automatic out at the plate, and when he hits it, he never gets an extra-base hit. If Ellsbury can't beat out a guy who had a .712 OPS last year, then he's simply not as good as you guys think he is. [/quote']

 

You are a mess, I can't believe I'm taking the time to respond to this crap.

 

You say he is a terrible player then in the same breath you say he is the best glove in the game....you realize how stupid that sounds? Perhaps he hit a few points below the CF batting average last season but how many runs did he save? Jacoby Ellsbury will be a better all around player than Coco Crisp in the future but lets not proclaim him the best CF in the majors just yet.

 

I love how you bring up OPS and the fact Crisp was at .712. Everyone will take Coco Crisp on defense hands down over Melky Cabrera and Johnny Damon yet they had an OPS of .718 and .747 which means I'm sure you would take the Yankee CFs. Who has blinders on??

[a700hitter]

You are a mess, I can't believe I'm taking the time to respond to this crap.

 

You say he is a terrible player then in the same breath you say he is the best glove in the game....you realize how stupid that sounds? Perhaps he hit a few points below the CF batting average last season but how many runs did he save? Jacoby Ellsbury will be a better all around player than Coco Crisp in the future but lets not proclaim him the best CF in the majors just yet.

 

I love how you bring up OPS and the fact Crisp was at .712. Everyone will take Coco Crisp on defense hands down over Melky Cabrera and Johnny Damon yet they had an OPS of .718 and .747 which means I'm sure you would take the Yankee CFs. Who has blinders on??

He hit Mo pretty good, and that outweighs any numbers as far as I am concerned.

[ksushi]

I was stressing defense only. Showing that defense wasn't all that important. Coco is average hitting CF? By what standards? The guy had a OPS of .712. I can't do that much worse at the plate than this guy. A .382 slugging? Are you kidding me? Melky isn't that much better. He is the most overrated OF the Yankees have had in years. I'm sorry, I don't equate young with potential. It just means that a player may suck for a very long time. He doesn't have a CF's typical body, he isn't overly big, or strong. He doesn't run all that well. He isn't an instinctively good fielder. He makes a good catch or two, or throws out a runner, and the media makes him out to be the next Bernie Williams. Bernie Williams last season ended with a .768 OPS, and everyone considered him to be downright terrible. Melky is a rising superstar at a .718 OPS. What a f***ing joke.

 

Yankee fans are going to hate to hear this, but last year, Crisp was better than Melky. Much better. It's not even close. Their numbers were basically even at the plate, but Crisp has more speed and is a much better defensive player. I'd much rather have Melky, because his ceiling is higher in my opinion, but for last year only, Crisp was better.

 

If Ellsbury can't beat out a guy with a .718 OPS and he is your best offensive prospect, and this is the guy you didn't want to trade for Santana, unless you win the World Series, your front office will hear about it. Cashman is already a goner at season's end due to his idiocy in not getting the best pitcher in baseball...AND...watching him lead the Mets to the best record in the National League in his own back yard. It's pretty much a foregone conclusion.

 

The fact that I'd rather have Melky is like choosing between the last two chicks at a West Virginia townie bar at closing time. My only consolation would be I would be hanging out with ORS, and he'd get the one I rejected. :harhar:

 

I think you're over looking the fact Crisp has been pretty banged up. Go find his numbers from June on and take a picture of your face. He was very good from June-September. I hope Ellsbury wins the battle, but I think Crisp should net us a valuable bullpen piece.

[Gom]

You are a mess, I can't believe I'm taking the time to respond to this crap.

 

You say he is a terrible player then in the same breath you say he is the best glove in the game....you realize how stupid that sounds? Perhaps he hit a few points below the CF batting average last season but how many runs did he save? Jacoby Ellsbury will be a better all around player than Coco Crisp in the future but lets not proclaim him the best CF in the majors just yet.

 

I love how you bring up OPS and the fact Crisp was at .712. Everyone will take Coco Crisp on defense hands down over Melky Cabrera and Johnny Damon yet they had an OPS of .718 and .747 which means I'm sure you would take the Yankee CFs. Who has blinders on??

He's a terrible offensive player. He's an excellent defensive player. Overall, he's subpar. Anyone who slugs .382 in CF is a poor offensive player. I don't call Ellsbury the best CF in the game, but if he can't beat out Crisp, I'd be worried if I was you guys.

 

I never said I'd take the Yankees CF's over Crisp right now. I believe that the best offensive player by far, at this point, is Damon. He's one year removed from an .841 OPS. Crisp has broken .800 once in six seasons, as opposed to Damon doing it 5 out of 12. I believe that Crisp can play CF with his eyes closed better than the Damon, and he is much better than Melky. I think Melky has better potential because he has four years to improve over Crisp.

 

All three are subpar CF's. You know, if Kennedy or Hughes don't pitch well, I will be the first one to kill Cashman for not making what I thought was a no-brainer for Santana. I hope you guys are objective enough to do the same if Ellsbury is in the minors come April.

[Gom]

I think you're over looking the fact Crisp has been pretty banged up. Go find his numbers from June on and take a picture of your face. He was very good from June-September. I hope Ellsbury wins the battle' date=' but I think Crisp should net us a valuable bullpen piece.[/quote']

I went and looked.

 

June: .897 OPS

July: .817 OPS

 

EVERY OTHER MONTH....UNDER HE WAS IN THE .600's. My goodness, if you're going to quote numbers, at least check them first. ORS, teach these noobs a thing or two. Geez.

 

P.S. My face looks sexy.

[Jayhawk Bill]

He's a terrible offensive player. He's an excellent defensive player. Overall' date=' he's subpar.[/quote']

 

He's an average offensive player. He's a superlative defensive player. Overall, he's a good starting CF.

 

FWIW, I checked his PECOTA-projected VORP for 2008 vs. all other MLB CF. There are seven other teams where he's expected to be a better hitter than their starting CF, and the modest ten-runs-above-average that his defense gives him would bring him above roughly half of the CFs listed above him based upon just hitting, not defense.

 

Anyone who slugs .382 in CF is a poor offensive player.

 

I know what the mean SLG for AL CF in 2007 was. Do you?

[HeadOfSoxNation]

He's an average offensive player. He's a superlative defensive player. Overall, he's a good starting CF.

 

FWIW, I checked his PECOTA-projected VORP for 2008 vs. all other MLB CF. There are seven other teams where he's expected to be a better hitter than their starting CF, and the modest ten-runs-above-average that his defense gives him would bring him above roughly half of the CFs listed above him based upon just hitting, not defense.

 

 

 

I know what the mean SLG for AL CF in 2007 was. Do you?

 

Yo...Jayhawk Bill OWNS people. Brilliant.