Wang/Joba/Hughes/Kennedy vs. Papelbon/Buchholz/Lester/Masterson

[He Hate Me]

Something tells me throwing 100+ and then a 90 MPH slider would put more stress on your arm than the average pitcher.

 

Besides, doesn't Joba have an injury history anyways? Like in college, didn't he hurt his lower body?

 

Nolan Ryan played till he was 40 something, and far as I can recall the Big Unit didn't have arm troubles till he turned late 30's.

 

I think it just comes down to good mechanics. Kevin Apier didn't throw the hardest but you knew he was gonna get an arm injury sooner or later.

[Gom]

The latest on Hughes, from Buster Olney's column:

 

One AL executive says he's starting to feel sorry for Phil Hughes -- because he may never be able to match all the hype that was laid on him before he arrived in New York.

 

"I think he's going to wind up being a No. 3 starter, and that's not bad," the exec says. "But people were led to believe he'd be more than that. It's going to be really hard for him to ever live up to all his expectations."

 

He won't even be that. Should have traded him when the value was high.

[TheKilo]

I think NYY would be very happy if he is their #3 starter for years to come.

[jacksonianmarch]

once again, Gom shows why he is about as useless as nipples on a dude.

[Cocos Disciples]

I think NYY would be very happy if he is their #3 starter for years to come.

 

Considering Johan Santana and Chien Ming Wang will be 1 and 2, that really isn't so bad...

[iSeenHippos]

Ian Kennedy doesn't have the potential the other young pitchers do, but I could definitely see him having a long career, because he arrived in the majors as a pretty competent pitcher. How often do potential aces ever turn into aces?

 

Paps IMO is the best closer in baseball right now. I worry about the temptation of getting Buchholz to start in the postseason, but that's the only negative I see surrounding him. I don't think Lester will be anything more than a back of the rotation pitcher, and Masterson looks good but ended the year poorly.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

I'll lay down my two cents on this one but I won't compare everyone:

 

Joba Chamberlain vs. Jonathan Papelbon:

 

Now that I've seen the two I can say they are very close in the way they attack hitters. That being said Jonathan Papelbon is going to be the more dominant because of his control. Very few pitchers in the league can spot a high power fastball with movement the way Papelbon does. When his splitter is on...the game is over without question. Once teams start to see Joba they will learn more about him. Teams have had time to adjust to Papelbon and he still strikes out the best of them. Thats not saying Joba won't be extremely effective but if I had my choice I'm taking Papelbon.

 

Hughes vs. Buchholz

 

Personally I think this should be Hughes vs. Bowden since they are the same age but NY has rushed Hughes and in the end that may come back to bite them a bit. I like his composure and his curveball. Clay Buchholz has blown me away though....I knew his curve was spectacular but his change is Santana-like and that is something Hughes does not have. In the end I don't think you can go wrong but from what I've seen...I'll take Buchholz.

 

As far as the rest....Bowden, Masterson, Kennedy, and Lester have a ways to go before I become truly excited about what they bring to the table.

[Gom]

I'll lay down my two cents on this one but I won't compare everyone:

 

Joba Chamberlain vs. Jonathan Papelbon:

 

Now that I've seen the two I can say they are very close in the way they attack hitters. That being said Jonathan Papelbon is going to be the more dominant because of his control. Very few pitchers in the league can spot a high power fastball with movement the way Papelbon does. When his splitter is on...the game is over without question. Once teams start to see Joba they will learn more about him. Teams have had time to adjust to Papelbon and he still strikes out the best of them. Thats not saying Joba won't be extremely effective but if I had my choice I'm taking Papelbon.

 

Well written. I would agree if not for two things. 1) Papelbon's injury history. This guy more than likely will be done by thirty. I hope I'm wrong, because I like hard-nosed players. Chamberlain will be more durable in the forseeable future. 2) Let's not forget that Chamberlain is going to be in the rotation next year, and starters are more valuable than relievers. It's not like he's Kennedy, or Buchholz, non-overpowering pitchers who rely on guile and deception. No matter how often you see a 99 fastball followed by a 90 mph slider, it's still hard to hit. Joba throws harder, and his ability to locate is about the same. On pure stuff, Joba's better. On being around more, Paps get the call. They are very similar either way. However, due to the fact that Papelbon is a constant risk of injury and very limited in his usage, and Chamberlain is a starter, on this one, I have to disagree.

Hughes vs. Buchholz

 

Personally I think this should be Hughes vs. Bowden since they are the same age but NY has rushed Hughes and in the end that may come back to bite them a bit. I like his composure and his curveball. Clay Buchholz has blown me away though....I knew his curve was spectacular but his change is Santana-like and that is something Hughes does not have. In the end I don't think you can go wrong but from what I've seen...I'll take Buchholz.

Buchholz is not that great. Don't put his guy in Cooperstown just yet. He will be a back of the rotation starter at best. He doesn't have a great fastball, and his curveball is decent, not great. Good location so far, but he hasn't shown great stuff, just a great start so far. Hughes is the most overrated prospect in the last 10 years in baseball. He has back of the rotation stuff, and at best, will be a number 3 pitcher. He will never be a star pitcher. Ever. I call it a push, but if I had to give an edge, it would be to Buchholz.

As far as the rest....Bowden, Masterson, Kennedy, and Lester have a ways to go before I become truly excited about what they bring to the table.

Agreed.

[KeepTheFaith1229]

He will be a back of the rotation starter at best.

 

You've got to be s***ing me.

[iSeenHippos]

Well written. I would agree if not for two things. 1) Papelbon's injury history. This guy more than likely will be done by thirty. I hope I'm wrong, because I like hard-nosed players. Chamberlain will be more durable in the forseeable future. 2) Let's not forget that Chamberlain is going to be in the rotation next year, and starters are more valuable than relievers. It's not like he's Kennedy, or Buchholz, non-overpowering pitchers who rely on guile and deception. No matter how often you see a 99 fastball followed by a 90 mph slider, it's still hard to hit. Joba throws harder, and his ability to locate is about the same. On pure stuff, Joba's better. On being around more, Paps get the call. They are very similar either way. However, due to the fact that Papelbon is a constant risk of injury and very limited in his usage, and Chamberlain is a starter, on this one, I have to disagree.

You really sell hard on Papelbon's injuries. Paps is the best closer in baseball right now. Today. It's a lot more than just being around more. Joba can potentially be better than Paps, but saying that he already is based on his potential is a bit much, IMO.

[iSeenHippos]

You've got to be s***ing me.

2x

 

...Buchholz can replace Julian Tavarez...moron.

[Gom]

You really sell hard on Papelbon's injuries. Paps is the best closer in baseball right now. Today. It's a lot more than just being around more. Joba can potentially be better than Paps' date=' but saying that he already is based on his potential is a bit much, IMO.[/quote']

 

History shows pitchers like him break down often as they age. I'm not saying he's better than Paps is. The sample size of his work is too small. However, he is younger, healthier, and pencilled in for the rotation. So right now, starting a team, drafting from scratch, etc., I take Chamberlain over Papelbon.

 

Putz is the best reliever in baseball right now. Not Paps. Not Rivera.

[Rdsxmbnt]

Papelbon is a much bigger injury risk than Joba? And what do you mean guys like [Papelbon], you mean guys who throw hard?

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Gom....you are certainly high on the Yankee prospects but thats fine because we are high on the Red Sox (only natural). If I recall Chamberlain has already had some injury issues. Perhaps more so than Papelbon who (to my knowledge) has had one injury that put him out in his major league career. He is 26 I believe and you think he will only be around 4 more years?

 

Buchholz is a back of the rotation starter...come on....anyone who has seen him pitch knows thats crap. He dominated everywhere in the minors and has dominated in the innings he has pitched at the majors. His curve is ok...not great...yikes watch the clips again. Hey if Buchholz is at the back of our rotation...I'd like to see what the rest of our rotation will look like.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Would the Yanks really put Joba in the rotation when he only has 2 pitches and the days of Rivera are coming to an end?

[iSeenHippos]

I will give you Putz is the best closer in baseball, but Paps is definitely in the discussion if not right there with him. Since the Gomes homer on 7/28, Paps has been striking out everybody in sight. The only hit off him in the 13.7 innings since then is a single by Orlando Cabrera.

[Rdsxmbnt]

you could definetly make a case that Papelbon has been more dominant than Putz this season, and last seasoon also obviously.

[ARod2212]

Joba will be in the rotation next year. 200 innings is much more valuable than 80 innings.

[kreinbihl34]

Yes but is 200 innings of 4.8ERA ball better than 80 innings sub 2 ball?

And I'm not talking about Paps here, just Joba. If he becomes a two pitch starter he'll eventually get hit hard, but if he was a closer he could make a living off those two pitches.

[ARod2212]

Yes but is 200 innings of 4.8ERA ball better than 80 innings sub 2 ball?

And I'm not talking about Paps here, just Joba. If he becomes a two pitch starter he'll eventually get hit hard, but if he was a closer he could make a living off those two pitches.

He has a curveball he hasn't used as a reliever because he doesn't need it, as well as a change. And he does have the stuff to live as a 2 pitch pitcher. Randy Johnson is going to the hall of fame with a fastball slider. He won't be a 4.8 ERA guy as a starter.

[iSeenHippos]

So now we are comparing Joba to Randy Johnson...he is great, and has a lot of potential, but very few aces ever pan out to become those aces. I thought people were getting ahead of themselves saying he was already better than Paps...

 

Rdsxmbnt, I think Paps is the best closer in baseball too, I just didn't want to sound like a homer.

[Gom]

I meant to say Buchholz will be a mid-rotation starter, brain fart there. I don't think he'll be an ace, but I think he will be better than the most over-hyped prospect since Generation K, that lazy POS Hughes. I hate that guy. Every year, I have to find a Yankee to hate. Last year, Pavano. This year, Hughes. f*** him.

 

If he starts throwing 98 and hitting his spots, then I reserve the right to love him. That is all.

[yankees228]

Would the Yanks really put Joba in the rotation when he only has 2 pitches and the days of Rivera are coming to an end?

 

You only need to throw two pitches to be an effective reliever. He has a changeup and curveball, they're just not as refined as the other two. It's not like he's strictly a two pitch pitcher.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

You only need to throw two pitches to be an effective reliever. He has a changeup and curveball' date=' they're just not as refined as the other two. It's not like he's strictly a two pitch pitcher.[/quote']

 

Yea a lot of pitchers have other pitches but that doesn't mean they use them. Most starters scrap there bad pitches at the start of a season and you never see them for the rest of the year. In the majors, having a few extra pitches in your back pocket for occasional use doesn't mean anything...only pitches you are effective with and throw for strikes matter.

 

On a side note I don't think I'm taking JJ Putz over Papelbon. Sure Putz has a 1.45 ERA vs. Papelbon who has a 1.58 ERA....but I like Papelbons K/9 a lot more than Putz.

[Rdsxmbnt]

The difference between Papelbon having a better ERA is one run allowed, that pretty much means nothing to me over a 50+ inning timespan

[ARod2212]

Yea a lot of pitchers have other pitches but that doesn't mean they use them. Most starters scrap there bad pitches at the start of a season and you never see them for the rest of the year. In the majors' date=' having a few extra pitches in your back pocket for occasional use doesn't mean anything...only pitches you are effective with and throw for strikes matter. [/quote']

This isn't the case with Chamberlain. He has the other pitches and has been developing them in the minor leagues. He's put them away for now as he doesn't really need to use them as a reliever, but when he gets to Spring Training next year you can be sure that those pitches will come out of the closet.

 

And I'm not comparing him to Randy Johnson (yet), I'm just illustrating the point that 2 pitch pitchers have been dominant even as starters. And it's not like Joba doesn't have good stuff.

[yankees228]

This isn't the case with Chamberlain. He has the other pitches and has been developing them in the minor leagues. He's put them away for now as he doesn't really need to use them as a reliever, but when he gets to Spring Training next year you can be sure that those pitches will come out of the closet.

 

And I'm not comparing him to Randy Johnson (yet), I'm just illustrating the point that 2 pitch pitchers have been dominant even as starters. And it's not like Joba doesn't have good stuff.

 

The first part is the point I was trying to make.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

He has the other pitches and has been developing them in the minor leagues. He's put them away for now as he doesn't really need to use them as a reliever' date=' but when he gets to Spring Training next year you can be sure that those pitches will come out of the closet. [/quote']

 

We'll see if this really is the case or it's just a hope that these pitches really will be effective.

[yankeessuck013]

I meant to say Buchholz will be a mid-rotation starter

 

I don't know if it was you but I remember someone making the argument that Joba will be better than Clay because he can throw HARDER...while that is true, it is utter ********.

And I'm sure that if other relievers had 2 days rest after 2 innings...they could throw pretty good heat too.

 

Clay's fastball is sometimes his 4th best pitch which means he chooses to get people out other than throwing it by them, he can throw a change on a 3-1 count, when the hitter is expecting fastball. When a batter gets up against Joba they are sitting on a fastball and they KNOW its gunna be fast, but these guys are professionals and its their job to hit the ball so even though its gunna be hard its not like its impossible to hit. I would find it much harder to hit a pitcher who throws 92, can place his change up wherever and whenever he wants, has a 12-6 curve and can also throw a decent slider-cutter thingy. His pitches are untouchable when used correctly. He can throw any of those pitches with any count too, which is more valuable than a pitcher who throws hard fastballs and hard sliders. Just ask Brian Roberts who was blown away by a Buchholz fastball after 105 pitches.

 

As long as he is being caught by Jason Varitek for a couple more years, one of the best gamecallers in the history of the MLB, clay will have an incredible future. 'Tek was calling 2-0 changes and Clay didn't shake him off once during the no-hitter.... Jason Varitek has caught 3 no-hitters, the second most of any catcher ever.

[example1]

The first part is the point I was trying to make.

 

Mediocre "other" pitches get clobbered in the 'bigs. Chamberlain's FB and SLD are very impressive so that offsets his 3/4 pitches a bit, but if those pitches aren't good enough they will get destroyed as if he were just some crappy pitcher on the Pirates or Rangers.