Dustin Pedroia is, at the very least, a minor deity

[EvilDonut]

I thought the Clement deal was decent.

[ORS]

YOU CLEMENT LOVING, PEDRO HATING, THEO APOLOGIST!!!!onE!!!

[Teddyballgame10]

Coco was suppose to be better then Damon. This is clearly not true, at least at the dish but I still wont blame Theo for this, sorry "Fire Theo" you s***, Coco looked like he had All-Star talent coming to the Sox it just didnt work out.

[BoSox21]

it just comes down to the fact that some guys can play in Boston and some can't. I still don't think the FO fully respects that point. if they did, guys like O-Cab would still be here

[ORS]

I think the "can't play in Boston" line of thinking is a load of crap. Can you name one player who's poor play can be completely blamed on being in Boston? I'm betting you'll try to start with Renteria, but how do we know it was Boston? People have bad years, and what usually happens is the Sox can absorb the cost to ship them away when there is a market for them, so they do after that one bad year. And, when they bounce back the next year, like most ball players do, they get tagged with "couldn't play in Boston".

[BoSox21]

baseball players have admitted they have a hard time with the scrutiny the media and fans place on the team in markets like Boston and New York which is why a lot of guys would rather play on the west coast or smaller markets where people aren't as pre-occupied with sports in general

[ORS]

Yeah, and Manny is exhibit A. Doesn't affect his play on the field.

[TheKilo]

Yeah' date=' and Manny is exhibit A. Doesn't affect his play on the field.[/quote']

 

That is completely untrue.

 

Some players are Dirt Dogs, and some aren't. DIRT DOGZ 4 LYFE

[a700hitter]

I think players, GMs, and other baseball people acknowledge that certain players can't take the heat of the bright lights in NY and Boston. This is similar to pitchers that can pitch in the 7th or 8th but can't close out a game. The 9th is only 3 outs, but they are the hardest 3 outs for any pitcher. Is it because the batters are better in the 9th? No. The ballparks don't shrink in the 9th, nor does the strike zone. They are the toughest three outs because of the pressure, and many successful pitchers have been unable to succeed in that role.

[example1]

Wasn't this guy supposed to be better than Johnny Damon?

 

Uhhh, no. 2007: Crisp: 3.5m vs. Damon: 13m.

 

Theo said from day one essentially "We know we cannot replace the player that Johnny Damon was, but we feel that in Crisp we have a player who is entering his prime years at a reasonable price, who brings multiple talents both in the field and on the basepaths to our club."

 

Personally, I think the Sox feel there will be better CF options available and that Crisp is the affordable carry-over. If a better CF comes along then Crisp will be the bench guy at 5m a season, who can play all 3 positions well, switch hit and pinch-run. He's the type of guy this team should have on the bench if they want to win it all. If WMP could play 1B his value would go way up, as they could acquire a great CF (say Hunter, Ichiro or Jones) or use Ellsbury (who I am very high on) and have both Crisp and WMP on the bench. One with speed, one with power, both with tremendous position flexibility, cheap and potentially still worthy of trades by other teams.

 

So, to answer your question, no, Crisp was not intended to be better than Damon. They wanted to go in a different direction, and despite Crisp's struggles I don't think the FO is losing too much sleep over the Damon move. Crisp may not be their guy, but I think with his injuries and crappitude in CF, neither was Damon.

 

 

 

You know what's funny? For all our collective money and spending power, we have made more mistakes than good calls the last two years. About the only signing/trade that has worked for both sides has been Abreu for us and Okajima for you. Everything else kinda sucks.

 

The Red Sox are certainly not upset about having bid so highly on Daisuke Matsuzaka. Let's not over play his slowish start... this guy could very well put them over the top and they outbid the Yankees and Mets (the other teams he may have put over the top) for him. Also, Josh Beckett and Mike Lowell have been huge parts of why this team is 20 games over .500.

[CrespoBlows]

. DIRT DOGZ 4 LYFE

 

[Youk Of The Nation]

I think players' date=' GMs, and other baseball people acknowledge that certain players can't take the heat of the bright lights in NY and Boston. This is similar to pitchers that can pitch in the 7th or 8th but can't close out a game. The 9th is only 3 outs, but they are the hardest 3 outs for any pitcher. Is it because the batters are better in the 9th? No. The ballparks don't shrink in the 9th, nor does the strike zone. They are the toughest three outs because of the pressure, and many successful pitchers have been unable to succeed in that role.[/quote']

 

Bingo. Look at Lidge. He was a closer, he got rattled when Pujols took him out in the 05 NLCS, and couldnt do it anymore. He blew one save this season, went to the middle relief position, posted a 1.something ERA, got promoted to closer again, and blew it again.

 

 

Sometimes it really is all in your head.

[ORS]

I acknowledge that in-game situations can render some players ineffective due to the pressure. I think pitching in the 9th of a game with a slim lead or hitting late in a close game are situations where the pressure is tangible. We feel it as fans, the live crowd feels it, so it's fair to suggest the players do as well. What I find a little unbelievable is the notion that the entire 6 months of the season playing for Boston or NY are pressure packed to the point that it renders some players useless. That's just over the top, IMO.

[seabeachfred]

Did jsinger teach him how to hit?

 

There have been plenty of us who have been unwaivering behind Pedroia--even when he was hitting hard line drives into outs last year.

 

But we wouldn't want to bring Ellsbury up--who is a month younger than Pedroia--with fear that he's too young and too vulnerable. ********. He was every bit the college player that Pedroia is and has done very well in the minors.

 

EX. yes there were some of us who were Pedroia people from the get-go, but it was astounding how some really felt this guy was never going to make it. They forget all the hard outs he made last year after his call-up, and more important, how well he performed against the Yankees. As for Ellsbury, bring the guy up. He is another Pedroia only probably better with more power and speed. I can see Jacoby and Dustin being our one-two punch at the top of the order for a long time when the kid is finally brought up where I think he now belongs. :D :D :D :D

[seabeachfred]

I concur with that' date=' Ellsbury as well[/quote']

 

Now if we could only convince Epstein and Lucchino.

[seabeachfred]

Pirates are benching Wilson as we speak' date=' and he's making $7 million. And Im sure there has been other times with players getting paid in neighborhood of $5 million and still getting benched in favor of another player. Im sorry I just dont see the Sox sitting idle while Crisp stays in his season long slump, fans become more relentless at him like Bellhorn in 05, that theyll keep him as the everyday center fielder until they trade him or he gets injured[/quote']

 

Riverside, though I totally agree that Ellsbury should be brought up I think Red Sox Rooter is right about Crisp. The FO does not want to bench a guy making that kind of dough until there is no other recourse. Since Coco got three hits in the Atlanta series I think it give the Epstein and Lucchino a little wiggle room to go with Coco a little longer. As for Pena, if yesterday didn't convince anyone that this guy is really toast I don't know what will.

[seabeachfred]

Hate his swing and approach....love the results. He just looks like the type of player who should play for the RedSox......solid all the way around. Love the cocky attitude and hard nosed personality he brings too....its not the arrogant cocky flair like arod' date=' its more of the type of attitude that says "im a gamer, and im not going down easy"[/quote']

 

Right Chin!!! When I saw Dustin on TV in a ST game against the Dodgers a couple of years back I said right off he is a prototypical Red Sox player, hard nosed and gritty and a guy who overachieves given his ability. You know what, though? I think Ellsbury is going to be better and I can't wait for him to take over CF. I only hope we bring the kid up, and package Crisp in a trade for a solid middle reliever. I really think with those two moves we could be set to make our move towards the WS.

[seabeachfred]

it just comes down to the fact that some guys can play in Boston and some can't. I still don't think the FO fully respects that point. if they did' date=' guys like O-Cab would still be here[/quote']

 

BoSox, now why did you have to spoil my morning by mentioning O-Cab? The guy is having a terrific year. Every time my wife and I go to Angels Stadlum he has another great game, hitting line drives all over the park, and making dazzling plays in the field, stealing bases, and leading his team on defense. HE COULD PLAY IN BOSTON. Notice how Renteria and Willie Harris are doing for the Braves this year???? You need no more evidence than that to see some players simply cannot play in the pressure cooker that is Boston. I just wonder if there is a way to judge the character of young players to see who can and who can't before we get them at Fenway Park. Probably a very inexact science.

[seabeachfred]

I think the "can't play in Boston" line of thinking is a load of crap. Can you name one player who's poor play can be completely blamed on being in Boston? I'm betting you'll try to start with Renteria' date=' but how do we know it was Boston? People have bad years, and what usually happens is the Sox can absorb the cost to ship them away when there is a market for them, so they do after that one bad year. And, when they bounce back the next year, like most ball players do, they get tagged with "couldn't play in Boston".[/quote']

 

Try Willie Harris. Remember how pathetic he was for us last year and at Pawtucket? He is having a banner year for the Braves up till now. The fact is he was brought up to the Braves early in the year because the team was under intense scrutiny because they did not have an African-American on their team. Looks like he found a home.

[Gom]

I acknowledge that in-game situations can render some players ineffective due to the pressure. I think pitching in the 9th of a game with a slim lead or hitting late in a close game are situations where the pressure is tangible. We feel it as fans' date=' the live crowd feels it, so it's fair to suggest the players do as well. What I find a little unbelievable is the notion that the entire 6 months of the season playing for Boston or NY are pressure packed to the point that it renders some players useless. That's just over the top, IMO.[/quote']

 

I don't know about Boston, but for New York...hmm...Ed Whitson is the most poignant example. See also Jose Contreras, Bobby Bonilla, Jeff Weaver...there are others, but those come to mind.

 

How about Renteria for you guys? Great years before and after Beantown.

[schillingouttheks]

Try Willie Harris. Remember how pathetic he was for us last year and at Pawtucket? He is having a banner year for the Braves up till now. The fact is he was brought up to the Braves early in the year because the team was under intense scrutiny because they did not have an African-American on their team. Looks like he found a home.

 

Harris has never been that great of a player. I doubt Boston had something to do with it.

 

He was a bench player here too.

[ORS]

I don't know about Boston, but for New York...hmm...Ed Whitson is the most poignant example. See also Jose Contreras, Bobby Bonilla, Jeff Weaver...there are others, but those come to mind.

 

How about Renteria for you guys? Great years before and after Beantown.

And none of them were there for more than a year and a half. The point being, if they get rid of them in such a short timeframe, there's no way to tell if it wasn't just a bad year, or an adjustment to a new situation.

[Youk Of The Nation]

Try Willie Harris. Remember how pathetic he was for us last year and at Pawtucket? He is having a banner year for the Braves up till now. The fact is he was brought up to the Braves early in the year because the team was under intense scrutiny because they did not have an African-American on their team. Looks like he found a home.

 

What? Edgar Renteria?

[SCM33]

Try Willie Harris. Remember how pathetic he was for us last year and at Pawtucket? He is having a banner year for the Braves up till now. The fact is he was brought up to the Braves early in the year because the team was under intense scrutiny because they did not have an African-American on their team. Looks like he found a home.

 

Fred, thats not a very good example. Willie Harris is 29 years old, and even with his .382 batting average this year.....he is still only a .254 hitter who gets on base at a .321 clip. Hes a versatile spare part, thats all.

[example1]

I don't know about Boston, but for New York...hmm...Ed Whitson is the most poignant example. See also Jose Contreras, Bobby Bonilla, Jeff Weaver...there are others, but those come to mind.

 

How about Renteria for you guys? Great years before and after Beantown.

 

So, is this to say that these guys NEVER found success in those cities? I mean, Contreras didn't pitch to what he is capable of... but he also had a few good games if I remember. If pressure in front of a certain stadium or within the bounds of a particularly "difficult" city is the deciding factor for certain players, then wouldn't it follow that those players NEVER found success in those cities? Anything else would be in direct contradiction.

'

I don't think it was the long-term pressure on Renteria that made him suck. He sucked because he was heavy and slow and injured. He showed signs, in Fenway, of being the offensively strong SS that he had been his entire career and to which he has become again of late. He just didn't do it very often. Is there any proof that he tended to get it done when the media was particularly fervant that day (i.e., on days when the Media had their Weaties, Renteria sucks)? I don't think so. He just trended toward the lower end of his projections over a 162 game season and that was enough for the Sox to dump him.

 

Jeff Weaver? He is currently sucking in the not-so-media-crazy Seattle. Perhaps he just sucks. :dunno:

 

Overall I'm just a much bigger fan of seeing things as trends and statistically normal rather than blaming things on 'fan pressure' or such things. Like ORS said, at times in particular games it can be difficult to be a player, but I think it is just as common for a player to be tempted to "over think" situations where the entire crowd is standing, as it is for a player to be not paying attention when playing a Tuesday afternoon game in KC in front of 3,300 fans. It goes both ways.

 

Plus, I think that in order for a hitter to hit a pitch in .4 seconds they have to clear pretty much everything else out of their heads. It is a reaction. Pitching, on the other hand, is a full body motion more like a gymnastics routine. There is room there for mental mistakes, not so much for a hitter who has trained himself to hit outside pitches the other way, take anything that starts above the eyes, not swing at pitches with the dot in the middle, and rip on fastballs inside. If there is a city problem I would say that it is with pitching, as pitchers regularly get booed while standing on the mound. Hitters tend to get booed while they are walking back to the safety of a dugout. If fielders make a lot of errors at home (like Renteria) then they have to face the full force of the crowd, but other than that I think hitters are much more spared from--and therefore less conscious of--the boo birds. Just my opinion...

[CrespoBlows]

I don't know about Boston, but for New York...hmm...Ed Whitson is the most poignant example. See also Jose Contreras, Bobby Bonilla, Jeff Weaver...there are others, but those come to mind.

 

How about Renteria for you guys? Great years before and after Beantown.

 

Contreras had a 3.30 ERA with the Yankees one year.

 

Bonilla had one rough year with the Mets, and was pretty good his last two and a helf.

 

Weaver succeeded his first half year with the Yankees.