How much blame do Ortiz and Manny deserve?

[jacksonianmarch]

I know a ton of people are all over Lugo, Drew, and Coco, but there may be a bigger reason why the sox offense has finally hit the skids. Has anyone seen the power numbers for the dreaded duo of Ortiz and Manny? They are pedestrian to say the least. Lets take a trip back in time....

 

David Ortiz, over the last 3 seasons (minus this one) has averaged..

47HR 141RBI 109R

 

If you project out what he is doing right now to a full season...

27HR 105RBI 108R

 

Manny Ramirez, over the last 3 healthy (not including last season because he missed 30G)

42HR 126RBI 112R

 

If you project out his stats..

20HR 85RBI 85R

 

So, in total, the average of these 2 over the past 3 healthy yrs is...

89HR 267RBI 221R

 

and their projected performance is

47HR 190RBI 193R

 

Something is amiss. Now I know the RBI totals and run totals are team dependent to a degree, but the power drop is alarming. And even if the team isnt helping them, the RBI drop is significant enough to throw up an alarm, even with Youk and Lowell hitting to career seasons and Vtek returning to being himself. As much as people wish to lay the blame on Drew, Lugo, and Crisp, those guys only needed to contribute marginally int he past and the deadly duo would do the rest of the dirty work. Unfortunately for you guys, this season, the 2 big boppers in the middle have become a little more human in terms of power and it is showing.

 

Now I know people will talk about David's .330BA and the fact that Manny's BA is very respectable, but those two guys are there to hit the ball into the seats and drive in runs. And according to their own standards, they are not doing that and it is hurting the sox.

[riverside sluggers]

Its all downhill from here

 

Lets see RBIs means runners on base... gasp Lugo and Coco have seen considerable time at the top of the order. This is a hard one

[CrespoBlows]

If you OPS over 1.000, you aren't hurting your team.

 

Why has his RBI's dropped?

 

Look who has been batting in front of him.

 

His runs are dropping, because Manny isn't driving him in.

[jacksonianmarch]

If you OPS over 1.000, you aren't hurting your team.

 

Why has his RBI's dropped?

 

Look who has been batting in front of him.

 

His runs are dropping, because Manny isn't driving him in.

 

What about the power drop? I am not saying they are hurting the team. I am just saying that David and Manny's drop in power has made the sox lineup a bit easier to pitch to.

[redsoxrules]

I know a ton of people are all over Lugo, Drew, and Coco, but there may be a bigger reason why the sox offense has finally hit the skids. Has anyone seen the power numbers for the dreaded duo of Ortiz and Manny? They are pedestrian to say the least. Lets take a trip back in time....

 

David Ortiz, over the last 3 seasons (minus this one) has averaged..

47HR 141RBI 109R

 

If you project out what he is doing right now to a full season...

27HR 105RBI 108R

 

Manny Ramirez, over the last 3 healthy (not including last season because he missed 30G)

42HR 126RBI 112R

 

If you project out his stats..

20HR 85RBI 85R

 

So, in total, the average of these 2 over the past 3 healthy yrs is...

89HR 267RBI 221R

 

and their projected performance is

47HR 190RBI 193R

 

Something is amiss. Now I know the RBI totals and run totals are team dependent to a degree, but the power drop is alarming. And even if the team isnt helping them, the RBI drop is significant enough to throw up an alarm, even with Youk and Lowell hitting to career seasons and Vtek returning to being himself. As much as people wish to lay the blame on Drew, Lugo, and Crisp, those guys only needed to contribute marginally int he past and the deadly duo would do the rest of the dirty work. Unfortunately for you guys, this season, the 2 big boppers in the middle have become a little more human in terms of power and it is showing.

 

Now I know people will talk about David's .330BA and the fact that Manny's BA is very respectable, but those two guys are there to hit the ball into the seats and drive in runs. And according to their own standards, they are not doing that and it is hurting the sox.

 

 

are you s***ing me? its the obvious the lack of rbi's is because no one gets on base for ortiz and manny , the HR are a little bit down but dont worry jacko they'll get up fast in a hurry

[CrespoBlows]

What about the power drop? I am not saying they are hurting the team. I am just saying that David and Manny's drop in power has made the sox lineup a bit easier to pitch to.

 

OPS 2007 - 1.052

 

OPS 2006 - 1.049

[jacksonianmarch]

I have a stat for you guys that will completely blow your mind....

 

If you project out the season to 162 games and use Manny's 2005 and Ortiz's 2006 season as comparison, the deadly duo are actually on pace to have 16 MORE at bats with runners on base than they had in those 2 career season. So, about those RBIs...

[Cocos Disciples]

Yeah, Youkilis has been hitting 2nd for a lot of the year, so I'm not sure a lack of RBI chances is really the right answer here.

[redsoxrules]

I have a stat for you guys that will completely blow your mind....

 

If you project out the season to 162 games and use Manny's 2005 and Ortiz's 2006 season as comparison, the deadly duo are actually on pace to have 16 MORE at bats with runners on base than they had in those 2 career season. So, about those RBIs...

 

so yeah about those baserunners , where they on third base, second base, first base in 2005 and 2006?

[Rdsxmbnt]

Ortiz is batting .362 .457 .595 1.052 with runners on and .350 .437 .583 1.020 with runners in scoring position. Mannys are down, but Id have to look closer to see as of late since Manny's been hitting extremely well lately after an awful April.

[riverside sluggers]

Ortiz

 

Runners on: .362

RISP: .350

RISP/2 outs: .357

 

f***er should be hitting .400 plus, its just a lost season for him. Why should pitchers even be scared to face him?

[CrespoBlows]

Yeah' date=' Youkilis has been hitting 2nd for a lot of the year, so I'm not sure a lack of RBI chances is really the right answer here.[/quote']

 

That's true, but Lugo is OBPing .276 from the leadoff spot, which bring Youkilis down a little bit.

 

Crisp has batted there 14 times as well.

 

I'd guess, if you added the three combined OBP for the three players it would be around .340?

 

BTW, the Twins f***ing own!

[example1]

I know a ton of people are all over Lugo, Drew, and Coco, but there may be a bigger reason why the sox offense has finally hit the skids. Has anyone seen the power numbers for the dreaded duo of Ortiz and Manny? They are pedestrian to say the least. Lets take a trip back in time....

 

David Ortiz, over the last 3 seasons (minus this one) has averaged..

47HR 141RBI 109R

 

If you project out what he is doing right now to a full season...

27HR 105RBI 108R

 

Manny Ramirez, over the last 3 healthy (not including last season because he missed 30G)

42HR 126RBI 112R

 

If you project out his stats..

20HR 85RBI 85R

 

So, in total, the average of these 2 over the past 3 healthy yrs is...

89HR 267RBI 221R

 

and their projected performance is

47HR 190RBI 193R

 

Something is amiss. Now I know the RBI totals and run totals are team dependent to a degree, but the power drop is alarming. And even if the team isnt helping them, the RBI drop is significant enough to throw up an alarm, even with Youk and Lowell hitting to career seasons and Vtek returning to being himself. As much as people wish to lay the blame on Drew, Lugo, and Crisp, those guys only needed to contribute marginally int he past and the deadly duo would do the rest of the dirty work. Unfortunately for you guys, this season, the 2 big boppers in the middle have become a little more human in terms of power and it is showing.

 

Now I know people will talk about David's .330BA and the fact that Manny's BA is very respectable, but those two guys are there to hit the ball into the seats and drive in runs. And according to their own standards, they are not doing that and it is hurting the sox.

 

I made this point in another thread too. Like it or not, this team gets a lot of its production from those two and it just hasn't happened. They are both hitting pretty well, though Manny's slugging is down a shitload, which is huge because it means Manny's getting singles with Ortiz or Youkilis on base, which doesn't lead to a run necessarily; whereas in the past he's hitting HRs in that situation. Ortiz is also taking more bad swings than I've seen probably since 03. There is every reason to believe they and this team will catch fire again in the not-too-distant future. Bringing Barry into town might be a good way to start.

 

Overall, if Manny and Papi are driving the ball consistently to deep parts of the park (Papi is, not manny) then more runs will score.

[CrespoBlows]

Ortiz

 

Runners on: .362

RISP: .350

RISP/2 outs: .357

 

f***er should be hitting .400 plus, its just a lost season for him. Why should pitchers even be scared to face him?

 

Why are you always this uppity?

[CrespoBlows]

I made this point in another thread too. Like it or not, this team gets a lot of its production from those two and it just hasn't happened. They are both hitting pretty well, though Manny's slugging is down a shitload, which is huge because it means Manny's getting singles with Ortiz or Youkilis on base, which doesn't lead to a run necessarily; whereas in the past he's hitting HRs in that situation. Ortiz is also taking more bad swings than I've seen probably since 03. There is every reason to believe they and this team will catch fire again in the not-too-distant future. Bringing Barry into town might be a good way to start.

 

Overall, if Manny and Papi are driving the ball consistently to deep parts of the park (Papi is, not manny) then more runs will score.

 

I agree.

 

Ortiz deserves a pass, Ramirez deserves some of the blame.

[jacksonianmarch]

I am not saying these guys suck. I am saying that they are hitting well. They just arent hitting the ball out of the park or bringing them home.

[example1]

Ortiz is batting .362 .457 .595 1.052 with runners on and .350 .437 .583 1.020 with runners in scoring position. Mannys are down' date=' but Id have to look closer to see as of late since Manny's been hitting extremely well lately after an awful April.[/quote']

 

Manny in May: (104 AB ) .327 .393 .577 .970

Manny in June: (35 AB ) .400 .553 .486 1.039

 

He has a f***ing .553 OBP in June, higher than his slugging. One really can't complain about the .970 or 1.039 OPS, except perhaps for the lack in SLG.

[redsoxrules]

Bringing Barry into town might be a good way to start.

 

 

i like that idea

[example1]

I am not saying these guys suck. I am saying that they are hitting well. They just arent hitting the ball out of the park or bringing them home.

 

That's it. The HR is missing, which is a crap shoot because a HR can be 1 run or 4 runs. Especially with this team's overall OBP it can lead to a lot of runs and game shifting moments.

[a700hitter]

I am not saying these guys suck. I am saying that they are hitting well. They just arent hitting the ball out of the park or bringing them home.

Who are they supposed to bring home. No one is getting on in front of them.

[NomahsHammSammich]

They deserve no blame at all....Their production is down because there are 3 No-hit, automatic outs in our lineup. Drew/Coco/and Lugo are KILLING this team. Anyone who doesn't see this is either legally blind or actually does have their head planted firmly in their lower sigmoid colon.

 

Manny and Ortiz are lucky to have seen enough pitches to put up the numbers they have. The Yankees will pitch around them NONSTOP unless we upgrade one or two of these useless clowns(J.D. Spew, Choco Stiff, and Lugo-no-speak-a-base-hitta).

 

Theo really s*** the bed with these three stiffs.

[BSN07]

They deserve no blame at all....Their production is down because there are 3 No-hit, automatic outs in our lineup. Drew/Coco/and Lugo are KILLING this team. Anyone who doesn't see this is either legally blind or actually does have their head planted firmly in their lower sigmoid colon.

 

Manny and Ortiz are lucky to have seen enough pitches to put up the numbers they have. The Yankees will pitch around them NONSTOP unless we upgrade one or two of these useless clowns(J.D. Spew, Choco Stiff, and Lugo-no-speak-a-base-hitta).

 

Theo really s*** the bed with these three stiffs.

 

 

 

You've written the same s*** in like 5 different threads, do you actually have an original thought in your brain or is it all copy and paste?

[jacksonianmarch]

Who are they supposed to bring home. No one is getting on in front of them.

 

did you see my post? They are on pace for 16 MORE AB's with runners on than they were in their hayday. Guys are on. They just arent driving them in.

[MANNYHOF24]

I think Manny deserves quite a bit of blame here. He is becoming a singles hitter, which is drastically hurting this team. Here is the simple truth- once Ortiz and Manny starting hitting homeruns at there usual clips the offense will be fine. With the two boppers going it just seems like everything eles falls into place. I still think Manny will just bust out and hit 5-6 homeruns in about a week.

 

Another small point here, I think Manny should have about 13-14 homeruns right now, the terrible weather really robbed him of a lot of homeruns early on this season.

[jacksonianmarch]

and another thing. These 1-2 run victories that you guys were having are not typical of your team. When Manny and Ortiz are bombing, you guys have comfortable leads.

[TheKilo]

The response to the OP - Zero.

[Teddyballgame10]

Jackson why arnt you a Red Sox fan you know so much about them you could fool me. One of the few yankee fans ill listen to and I live in NY.

[example1]

I think Manny deserves quite a bit of blame here. He is becoming a singles hitter, which is drastically hurting this team. Here is the simple truth- once Ortiz and Manny starting hitting homeruns at there usual clips the offense will be fine. With the two boppers going it just seems like everything eles falls into place. I still think Manny will just bust out and hit 5-6 homeruns in about a week.

 

Another small point here, I think Manny should have about 13-14 homeruns right now, the terrible weather really robbed him of a lot of homeruns early on this season.

 

So when moving all these other guys aound in the lineup, why not shift Manny? If nothing else move him to 3rd where Papi would back him up and he would be on for Papi. His 500+ OBP in the past month would certainly put some ducks on the pond.

[jacksonianmarch]

So when moving all these other guys aound in the lineup' date=' why not shift Manny? If nothing else move him to 3rd where Papi would back him up and he would be on for Papi. His 500+ OBP in the past month would certainly put some ducks on the pond.[/quote']

 

this is a smart idea. Move Manny to 3rd because he is on base 40% of the time and drive Manny home. Then again, Papi is on track to have one more AB w/runners on than he did last yr, so I think it is a bit different. He just needs to hit the ball out again.

[a700hitter]

did you see my post? They are on pace for 16 MORE AB's with runners on than they were in their hayday. Guys are on. They just arent driving them in.

Is that RISP?