Wily Mo Pena

[TedWilliams101]

He hasn't proven that he can improve with time. There's absolultely no indication of that. Let him try and prove himself though, just not on this team. If you ain't got your s*** together NOW then I don't want you playing on our team. Period. The minors are for learning how to hit and doing the vast majority of improving. If you need a full MLB year or 2 to MAYBE get your s*** together, it better not be with us. We don't have time to wait around for him. Give him to a team with no offense that needs crap like him.

[Rdsxmbnt]

He hasn't proven that he can improve with time. There's absolultely no indication of that. Let him try and prove himself though' date=' just not on this team. If you ain't got your s*** together NOW then I don't want you playing on our team. Period. The minors are for learning how to hit and doing the vast majority of improving. If you need a full MLB year or 2 to MAYBE get your s*** together, it better not be with us. We don't have time to wait around for him. Give him to a team with no offense that needs crap like him.[/quote']

 

This really isnt worth answering but w/e I will. Hasnt proven that he can improve with time? How bout last season, .301/.349/.489, thats pretty solid for a 24 year old kid is it not? And 2 days ago, Manny was below the mendoza line, he started off the year 6 for 31, ouch he sucks, we need guys who produce NOW! [sarcasm] But wait Rdsxmbnt Manny is a proven hitter so hes obviously going to turn it around! Of course but WMP also had a very solid year last year, but ya lets dump him after 14 ABs he'll never amount to anything.

[adam123]

Wow Seeing him last night in person really has me thinking will mo will never be better

[schillingouttheks]

You are never allowed to ever root for him. You are not allowed to cheer if he hits a home run or when he does something productive. Capisce?

[adam123]

schill where were you sitting ? what a great series . Mannys home run went right over my head it was awsome

[TedWilliams101]

I do root for WMP and I will. I don't hate the guy. I wish him the most success, but I'm being realistic. He isn't a an above average player and I highly doubt he will ever become one. Yes, there are teams that can use average players, but the Red Sox aren't one of them. As much as I hate to sound like the Yankees, but you have to have already proven yourself and be a great player, or you don't deserve to be on our team. I'm FINE with WMP as a bench player. But that is it.

 

I take last night as an example and look at his CAREER stats, yet you tell me I'm not looking at his "improvement" and you only throw me 1 year of stats. Yes, he did well last season, but if you noticed, most of his hits last season were with the bases empty. IE, they wen't right after him with fastballs. He can't hit an offspeed pitch, he chases them. As you are seeing RIGHT NOW, pitchers just aren't going to give him a straight fastball when he could do damage. His career stats show that, as well as his performance so far.

 

And the Manny comparison doesn't work. Manny has 477 career homers and 9 straight seasons of 30+HR and 100+RBI, and he has been known to start the season cold. His career stats show what type of hitter he is... elite. Now, WMP is off to a horrible start, BUT his career numbers REFLECT his current numbers. That means, no slump. Last season was not a "break out", it was a fluke, and his career stats and current stats support that, not the other way around.

 

Do you remember Beltre's "break out year" in '04? Everyone thought that he finally progressed into the caliber player everyone expected him to be. Guess what, that was just a fluke, not a "break out". Yes he is a pretty good player, but not even close to that good. Same thing goes with WMP season last year.

[adam123]

Right on ted 101 that was great post .

[TheKilo]

I wish I could put this thread on ignore.

[Rdsxmbnt]

I do root for WMP and I will. I don't hate the guy. I wish him the most success, but I'm being realistic. He isn't a an above average player and I highly doubt he will ever become one. Yes, there are teams that can use average players, but the Red Sox aren't one of them. As much as I hate to sound like the Yankees, but you have to have already proven yourself and be a great player, or you don't deserve to be on our team. I'm FINE with WMP as a bench player. But that is it.

You have got to be kidding me, ZERO teams in the league have a lineup and bench of players that are completely proven and are a great players. Even the Yankees, though they may be close to the exception in the lineup although they have one blackhole even in Meintxxxx. Then look at the Red Sox, Pedroia isnt proven yet, even Crisp isnt even proven yet that they can be everyday hitters in the lineup. But you know what? How can they do that without playing time? Thats what WMP needs and he proved he can potentially be a well-above average MLB player by his performance last year.

 

I take last night as an example and look at his CAREER stats, yet you tell me I'm not looking at his "improvement" and you only throw me 1 year of stats. Yes, he did well last season, but if you noticed, most of his hits last season were with the bases empty. IE, they wen't right after him with fastballs. He can't hit an offspeed pitch, he chases them. As you are seeing RIGHT NOW, pitchers just aren't going to give him a straight fastball when he could do damage. His career stats show that, as well as his performance so far.

His career stats indicate hes a .143/.294/.357 hitter???? Are you kidding me???? He has his flaws like all young hitters (even more because he wasnt brought along properly in CIN). But tell me what we're seeing right now is all he'll ever be is rediculous. In fact over the past 3 years (when he was 22, 23, and 24 years old) hes had 923 ABs and posted a

.270/.322/.504/.826 line, thats fantastic for a kid his age, most prospects are still in the minors at those ages and he has a .826 OPS. This wasnt a one year thing, hes always shown ability to be a major league hitter. He needs some work but like I said to say hes a career bench player is an awful and baseless claim.

 

And the Manny comparison doesn't work. Manny has 477 career homers and 9 straight seasons of 30+HR and 100+RBI, and he has been known to start the season cold. His career stats show what type of hitter he is... elite. Now, WMP is off to a horrible start, BUT his career numbers REFLECT his current numbers. That means, no slump. Last season was not a "break out", it was a fluke, and his career stats and current stats support that, not the other way around.

Like I pointed out, his career numbers DO NOT reflect his .144 BA. Its been 14, 14! ABs and your ready to declare him a bench player at 25 years old

[adam123]

DEAD HORSE

[schillingouttheks]

DEAD HORSE

 

The same one that you keep beating everytime you come to this site?

 

And for the record, I didn't get the opportunity to go to the game, adam. Not everyone can go. But, I was watching on my family room couch in HD. I saw him pretty clearly as well.

[castigs850]

i dont like the fact that wily mo was playing last night. coco has been starting to turn it on the last 3 games he played and he gets rewarded sitting? unless this is some type of system tito has like every 5th game WMP plays or something like that then i dont like it.

 

i dont really like either player and think neither is better than the other, the only thing we have going for us when it comes to those two is the fact that they are interchangeable parts so when one gets hot he plays, when he cools off the other gets a chance. that's just how i would manage it until one consistantly proves himself. and like i said coco has been doing the job as of these last few games

[TheKilo]

i dont like the fact that wily mo was playing last night. coco has been starting to turn it on the last 3 games he played and he gets rewarded sitting? unless this is some type of system tito has like every 5th game WMP plays or something like that then i dont like it.

 

i dont really like either player and think neither is better than the other, the only thing we have going for us when it comes to those two is the fact that they are interchangeable parts so when one gets hot he plays, when he cools off the other gets a chance. that's just how i would manage it until one consistantly proves himself. and like i said coco has been doing the job as of these last few games

 

Coco was feeling tightness in his oblique, but him replacing WMP defensively tells me he'll be in the lineup tonight.

[rician blast]

.......so when one gets hot he plays' date=' when he cools off the other gets a chance. [/quote']

 

Problem is Wily Mo's "hot streaks" last about 2 ABs.

[castigs850]

Coco was feeling tightness in his oblique, but him replacing WMP defensively tells me he'll be in the lineup tonight.

guess thats what i miss when im dont go on the comp and the game is on espn

 

 

Problem is Wily Mo's "hot streaks" last about 2 ABs.

 

im not sure if you are saying this because he doesnt get consistant playing time or if its because you dont like him. but if it's the former im saying he should get the playing time to continue any hot streak, just not in the middle of crisps

[TedWilliams101]

Rdsxmbnt, you are putting words in my mouth. I am FINE with him as a bench player for our team. That is not the point of that post. A lot of people around here want him to play just about everyday, and THAT is what I oppose. And no, I don't think He'll ever turn out to be a great player. Yes, his career numbers are better than how he is doing right now, but my point is that his career numbers aren't very good...

 

The thing most people over-look is that most prospects have good plate discipline, eye, etc while they develope in the majors, and then develope power. It is extremely hard to have power, but try to develope your plate discipline and vision. It's not like WMP just has poor plate discpline, he swings at breaking pitches way in the dirt, he can't even make contact with most breaking pitches. That shows that it probably has more to do with him not "seeing" the ball well, etc. That is EXTREMELY hard to improve.

 

Papi turning into the monster he is now is pretty increadible, but he always had the potential. When he was with Min, he had the swing, he had the eye, he just needed to work harder, get better instruction, and learn to layoff certain pitches and have better pitch selection. That is far easier than trying to teach a guy how to better see and judge the ball. I'm not saying he can't do it. It just doesn't seem likely. WMP doesn't look like he is the type who can have good at-bats.

[TheKilo]

 

Papi turning into the monster he is now is pretty increadible, but he always had the potential. When he was with Min, he had the swing, he had the eye, he just needed to work harder, get better instruction, and learn to layoff certain pitches and have better pitch selection. That is far easier than trying to teach a guy how to better see and judge the ball. I'm not saying he can't do it. It just doesn't seem likely. WMP doesn't look like he is the type who can have good at-bats.

 

David Ortiz had a huge hole in his swing in Minnesota.

[BoSox21]

guess thats what i miss when im dont go on the comp and the game is on espn

 

thats guy Joe Morgan is more into telling us 1000 times how he didn't wanna say anything to jinx Manny but he told him before the game that he was gonna have a big night....BUT SAYS IT AT THE TOP OF THE BROADCAST :thumbdown

 

I feel bad for Jon Miller who is a fantastic broadcaster IMO

[TedWilliams101]

I can't stand either of them

[adam123]

Rdsxmbnt, you are putting words in my mouth. I am FINE with him as a bench player for our team. That is not the point of that post. A lot of people around here want him to play just about everyday, and THAT is what I oppose. And no, I don't think He'll ever turn out to be a great player. Yes, his career numbers are better than how he is doing right now, but my point is that his career numbers aren't very good...

 

The thing most people over-look is that most prospects have good plate discipline, eye, etc while they develope in the majors, and then develope power. It is extremely hard to have power, but try to develope your plate discipline and vision. It's not like WMP just has poor plate discpline, he swings at breaking pitches way in the dirt, he can't even make contact with most breaking pitches. That shows that it probably has more to do with him not "seeing" the ball well, etc. That is EXTREMELY hard to improve.

 

Papi turning into the monster he is now is pretty increadible, but he always had the potential. When he was with Min, he had the swing, he had the eye, he just needed to work harder, get better instruction, and learn to layoff certain pitches and have better pitch selection. That is far easier than trying to teach a guy how to better see and judge the ball. I'm not saying he can't do it. It just doesn't seem likely. WMP doesn't look like he is the type who can have good at-bats.

 

Ted they will never agree with you . Its a lost cause .. Did U go to the game yesterday ?

[TedWilliams101]

Nah, i wish. I just watched it on tv. I'm going to Saturday's game in the bronx though. Can't wait to show up in enemy territory.

[HeadOfSoxNation]

Rdsxmbnt, you are putting words in my mouth. I am FINE with him as a bench player for our team. That is not the point of that post. A lot of people around here want him to play just about everyday, and THAT is what I oppose. And no, I don't think He'll ever turn out to be a great player. Yes, his career numbers are better than how he is doing right now, but my point is that his career numbers aren't very good...

 

The thing most people over-look is that most prospects have good plate discipline, eye, etc while they develope in the majors, and then develope power. It is extremely hard to have power, but try to develope your plate discipline and vision. It's not like WMP just has poor plate discpline, he swings at breaking pitches way in the dirt, he can't even make contact with most breaking pitches. That shows that it probably has more to do with him not "seeing" the ball well, etc. That is EXTREMELY hard to improve.

 

Papi turning into the monster he is now is pretty increadible, but he always had the potential. When he was with Min, he had the swing, he had the eye, he just needed to work harder, get better instruction, and learn to layoff certain pitches and have better pitch selection. That is far easier than trying to teach a guy how to better see and judge the ball. I'm not saying he can't do it. It just doesn't seem likely. WMP doesn't look like he is the type who can have good at-bats.

 

That's simply not true. In Minny, Ortiz couldn't hit lefthanders, and he couldn't hit pitches in on his hands. Now he hammers both. Do I think we could turn WMP into Ortiz? Surely not. Do I think he has loads of untapped potential? For sure.

[EvilDonut]

I can't stand either of them

 

I think Joe brought Jon way, way down. And i'll never be able to look at him any other way then as Joe's partner.

 

 

It's a shame.

[seabeachfred]

Rician, Crunch and Ted, take it from me. Trying to get consensus on Wily Mo Pena is a daunting task and doomed to failure. The problem is we have some pretty good baseball people in Schill, Kilo and Redseat who think the guy is worth being patient with and some others who feel the same always point to David Ortiz as an example of how patience pays off. What the pro-Pena camp fails to realize is that Ortiz NEVER was a chaser of pitches wide of the zone, and while he DID have a hole in his swing he was a hard and willing worker. Pena? This past winter when he was something like 4 for 48 on one time in the Dominican Winter League, was he working on his weaknesses???? Hell no, according to reports he was out chasing the ladies. He has either a very poor work ethic or he is just a bad learner. Anyone who saw him last night and still thinks he is going to suddenly put it together is living in a dream world. He had four at-bats in the Yankee series. Four. All were strikeouts and if you saw them you know that every one of those K's were on bad pitches out of the strike zone. However, for the sake of comaradarie on this board, let's just agree to disagree with the other camp on this guy and just move on.

[TedWilliams101]

I don't dissagree that WMP has untapped potential, I just don't think it's going to turn him into a monster that many people here think he'll be. I'm just skeptical of whether or not he can do it. He has the potential, it's a matter of him actually being able to reach it. And I dont think he ever will from the way he plays.

[Mr Crunchy]

hes been in the league for a long time

its not our fault he wasnt developed properly or that he cant lay off balls over his head and in the dirt and is on pace for 114Ks in 200 abs which is f***ing atrocious

[ryanromine]

I'm neither for or against WMP! I do feel, as most of you do, that there is a lot of potential there, but is he willing to work as hard as Ortiz! If you look at his career stats there is a glimmer of hope! As to say will he ever put up the numbers that Papi has, well that is an definite no! I would love to see this guy hitting more and striking out way less, but for his career in 1124 ABs he K'ed 387 times! I mean playing in Cincy with Dunn must've had an affect on him!

[TedWilliams101]

NOW, I officially hate WMP. 0-2 with a strike out in todays game, then screws up a routine flyball and causes 3 uneared runs to score. As I have pointed out before, he is a liability on defense, tonight was a painful reminder of that.

[riverside sluggers]

NOW' date=' I officially hate WMP. 0-2 with a strike out in todays game, then screws up a routine flyball and causes 3 uneared runs to score. As I have pointed out before, he is a liability on defense, tonight was a painful reminder of that.[/quote']

 

Actually all 4 runs were unearned

[schillingouttheks]

I'd be lying if I said I didn't get a tad irritated with him tonight.

 

I still have to watch him play more, though.

 

Fred: You said something about WMP being as good as Ortiz...I have never said that. I don't think it's possible for him to be as good as a hitter as Ortiz is, but he can definitely get better. Someone like WMP with all that raw power doesn't come around very often. The ONLY way to see him start to improve is to let him get his playing time and stomach some of his disasters. The good thing about tonight is that it didn't cost us the game. Halladay was auto-freakin-matic after his slow start, and we had no chance. I understand your impatience with him, he doesn't look very good right now, but at least just give the guy some time. He'll continue to work with the hitting coaches, and as he gets more and more at bats he'll have better command of the strike zone. These things are processes, they don't happen overnight, over a week, nor over a month. It'll suck to watch him suck it up out there, but patience is a virtue.

 

If he doesn't show any signs of improvement after a substantial amount of playing time and he's still wailing at terrible pitches, then I'll start to back off. But for now, we all need to be a little bit patient.