Why do we need a closer?

[DUSTINMOHR4LIFE]

I wouldn't mind giving Cox a shot in ST. His stuff is explosive, making him perfect for the role. He probably would be just as good as the options that we have now, IMO.

[jacksonianmarch]

Did you learn anything from the Hansen fiasco? Dont rush these kids. He should be in AA. Hansen should be in AAA, for the entire season. Dont ruin them now.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

I wouldn't mind giving Cox a shot in ST. His stuff is explosive' date=' making him perfect for the role. He probably would be just as good as the options that we have now, IMO.[/quote']

 

I think everyone saying Bryce Cox should get a shot as the closer is crazy. He isn't even up to AA yet. I don't believe Craig Hansen gave up a single run at AA Portland and look how he is doing in the majors. Forget it...not happening.

 

Craig Hansen has some serious control issues at the moment but a guy we don't mention is Manny Delcarmen. Before his injuries last year he was pitching great out of the pen. He was locating his fastball and has one of the best curves on the Red Sox roster. If healthy he should get a shot....not to mention he now has some experience with the major league team (2 years?) He has more life to his arm than most of the old guys in the pen...again "if healthy" he has shown the ability to be a stopper.

[jacksonianmarch]

I think MDC projects out to be more of a middle man than a closer. He walks way too many to close.

[Beckett95]

ya i dont really see MDC as a closer type reliever

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

so at 24-25? years old we have determined what kind of pitcher Manny Delcarmen is and what he never can be......interesting......alright lets bring in Bryce Cox

[Beckett95]

i mean if he can get better control of his pitches maybe he can be, but i dont know if has the mentality of a closer. I never said Cox should be the closer, just that they should give him a look in ST.

[jacksonianmarch]

I apologize for a mistake, but DelCarmen actually is rather accurate. 17BB in 53IP is not too bad. What is bad is that he gets battered to a tune of a .309 BAA.

[example1]

It would be ideal if Cox could have a few years, but I don't think that means you necessarily don't give the kid a shot in ST. If he's good enough he's good enough, if not then he won't be put into the position. We have a lot of young pitchers and the Sox will certainly try to have different development trajectories for each of them. Perhaps Cox is mature for his age.

 

He did graduate from Rice, didn't he? A 4 year college ball player at a good baseball school certainly doesn't hurt.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

i mean if he can get better control of his pitches maybe he can be' date=' but i dont know if has the mentality of a closer. I never said Cox should be the closer, just that they should give him a look in ST.[/quote']

 

I hear this a lot....."mentality of a closer" or "closer mentality"......I'm not really sure what that means. As a professional athlete (especially baseball players) you work under pressure all the time. Every pitcher looks at every inning the same. If your job is to come in for the 8th innings.....you treat it as if its the last inning of the game. So in the end I know what Timlin, Donnelly, Romero, and other veterans bring to the table.....we still don't know the full extent of Manny Delcarmen and Craig Hansen. Anyone writing the book on these guys or throwing them to wolves because what they saw in short time from them wasn't Papelbon-esque.....is just being short sighted. If anyone out of the current Red Sox roster should be getting a close look in spring training...its them....otherwise make a deal and bring in a proven player.

[Beckett95]

he doesnt miss many batters and last year, especially towards the end of the season, he was getting hit all the time. Not just little bloops, hard hit line drives

[jacksonianmarch]

it isnt something that is meant to be explained, just that it is true. There are tons of solid relievers who moved to the closers role and flat out sucked. And there are some closers who were moved to setup or MR positions and they flat out sucked as well. These are people here, not machines, they will all respond to pressure differently.

[Beckett95]

If Cox got the oppurtunity he could turn out like Hansen or Street, you never know. Id still like to see him pitch in ST and see how he responds

[Fried Neckbones]

He doesn't even have 30IP yet (outside of college). His numbers, while good, don't scream "total dominance" yet. A total of 20 hits, 28 k, 11 bb in 29.3 IP is good, but it was at Lowell and Wilmington. His ERA is really good, but his other numbers look like he'd benefit from some more time on the farm. He is not the answer for '07.

[BSN07]

And Street went to the majors in his draft season and has stayed there ever since. Give him a look and if no send him to AA.

[jacksonianmarch]

And Street went to the majors in his draft season and has stayed there ever since. Give him a look and if no send him to AA.

 

isolated case in a low pressure environment. Also, Street did not pitch in the season he was drafted. He was brought up the yr after.

[He Hate Me]

I love these threads. I especially would love it if Theo talked himself into another bullpen by closer situation. Really, I honestly would.

[ORS]

I love these threads. I especially would love it if Theo talked himself into another bullpen by closer situation. Really' date=' I honestly would.[/quote']

The first team to do it and do it correctly will have a tactical advantage over their opponents (as long as those oppenents are sticking with contemporary BP usage).

 

You know what I love? I love it when Mo is brought in with a 3-run lead in the ninth on his 3rd straight day of work. Sure, they'll win that game, but they won't have their biggest advantage of the last decade in the following game.

[jacksonianmarch]

The first team to do it and do it correctly will have a tactical advantage over their opponents (as long as those oppenents are sticking with contemporary BP usage).

 

You know what I love? I love it when Mo is brought in with a 3-run lead in the ninth on his 3rd straight day of work. Sure, they'll win that game, but they won't have their biggest advantage of the last decade in the following game.

 

that is why you have Proctor, Bruney, or gulp...the Farns. The Yankees have the arms to handle the closers role in times when Mo needs a night off. If they add Gonzalez, then this wont be an issue at all.

[Cocos Disciples]

I love these threads. I especially would love it if Theo talked himself into another bullpen by closer situation. Really' date=' I honestly would.[/quote']

 

Bullpen by Closer? How novel.

[ORS]

that is why you have Proctor' date=' Bruney, or gulp...the Farns. The Yankees have the arms to handle the closers role in times when Mo needs a night off. If they add Gonzalez, then this wont be an issue at all.[/quote']

Proctor, Bruney, and Farnsworth are what they are, MRPs. MRP's performance varies from year to year. Mo, Hoffman, and a few others are the only consistently good relief pitchers in the game. Year in, year out, they can pitch the high lev spots with good success. I love it when our rival uses their only consistent arm in what is really mop up duty (3-run lead in the 9th). I hate it when our club does it.

[jacksonianmarch]

I dislike that as well. Thing is, last yr we had the relievers to handle it. As poor as Farnsworth looked, he really only hurt us twice taking over for Mo. And for the most part, our MR was good enough to essentially wait it out until the offense piled on (thanks ARod) enough to put the game out of reach.

 

This is in part why I am harping on a team like the sox finishing the pen. You have what looks to be a pretty damn good rotation, one that has the POTENTIAL to be the best in the league. You have an offense that, while it isnt the 2003-2005 version, is still going to score a ton of runs. This is going to translate into a lot of leads getting handed over to your pen. But I have NO faith in that pen. Okajima is flat out unproven over here, and other than a plus curve, he screams lefty specialist in scouting report. Timlin exploded for the last 2-3 months. Donnelly has some very poor trends as you said. Romero was awful last yr. The kids proved that they are not ready. If you are going to have a team that will inherently have a ton of leads, you should have a bullpen built to hold onto them. If you get a closer, a good one, not some retread, then the pen goes from awful to serviceable. A good closer to a team like Boston is something that should be mandatory, unlike to teams like Pittsburgh or TB who may not have enough leads to keep their closers busy.

[He Hate Me]

Bullpen by Closer? How novel.

 

doh! in my defense, I posted that at 1:30AM

 

and ORS, Joe only does that with Mo if it's a crucial game. I think most people would feel better with a set closer in the playoffs rather than a closer by bullpen situation. Although, I think the Blue Jays in the early 90's didn't really have a set closer. Anyone who remembers? I think they had Heinke and Ward both working 9th innings in close games.

[Mr Crunchy]

back in the late 70s the yanks had a psuedo closer by committee that they adopted from the reds who used rawley eastwick and will mcenearney in sparkey andersons bullpen

 

the yanks would use lyle and gossage depending on the scenario

i recall lyle pitching against righties and gossage against lefties late in games

 

did i mention the sox used calvin schiraldi in 1986 and got within 1 strike of winning it all??

[CrespoBlows]

Did I mention that Schiraldi had a 1.41 ERA?

 

The Red Sox have no pitcher in the bullpen that can put those numbers up. Schiraldi pitched well enough to get us there. Can we get there when Timlin is serving up 500 foot HR's in the 9th?

[Mr Crunchy]

im not so sure that timlin can pitch at all anymore mr C

hes old and there a lot of huge innings under his hat

we got issues over there,no doubt

 

as far as 86 goes

considering we had the rapidly declining bob stanley and the never was of the mid season aquisition of joe sambito we had a bullpen of scatine to say the least

in 86 we had clemens who may have had the best regular season ever that year

we had dennis boyd who won 17 games and shouldve been an allstar

we had bruce hurst who had his name written as the MVP of the 86 series as he was a hoss and maybe the best money pitcher to ever wear a sox uniform not named tiant

we had a very serviceable al nipper at the time as well as a vet like tom seaver who put together a decent 2nd half with 100+innings and a 3.5? era

 

take note

a good starting staff from soup to nuts doesnt tax your bullpen and allows guys like shag crawford tim lollar andsammy fukin stewart theability to stay fresh and effective thruout the year

last year we lost 425 or more innings with the loss of wakefield and the deal for pena

they were replaced by complete and utter stiffs who couldnt finish 3 innings

the bullpen was s*** by august outside our closer who is no longer in the bullpen equation.

 

anyways

as far as schiraldi goes

do you remember him drilling brian downing with the bases loaded 2 strikes and 2 out against the halo's mr C??

it was an epiphany of the most unsettling evening i ever spent outside of a hospital room or a funeral parlor

[a700hitter]

back in the late 70s the yanks had a psuedo closer by committee that they adopted from the reds who used rawley eastwick and will mcenearney in sparkey andersons bullpen

 

the yanks would use lyle and gossage depending on the scenario

i recall lyle pitching against righties and gossage against lefties late in games

 

did i mention the sox used calvin schiraldi in 1986 and got within 1 strike of winning it all??

Sometimes he thinks games in May are crucial.

[CrespoBlows]

anyways

as far as schiraldi goes

do you remember him drilling brian downing with the bases loaded 2 strikes and 2 out against the halo's mr C??

it was an epiphany of the most unsettling evening i ever spent outside of a hospital room or a funeral parlor

 

Schiraldi may be the worst October pitcher other than Javier Vazquez, but like you said with Clemens, they're great until they hear the word playoffs.

 

The Red Sox were close with Schiraldi, do they really think they can get close with Hansen/Delcarmen/Timlin, etc..?

 

If they do, look foward to watching highlights of the 2004 Red Sox come October.

[Mr Crunchy]

do i??

honestly??

i think they can be competetive with donnelly,delcarmen and romero in the 6-7-8 matchups and even win with these guys

IF they can find someone to get outs in the 9th

 

i'd like to see someone who fire bb's as well as can eat glass and abuse kittens with no remorse to fill that hole

those men are few and far between

 

despite the fact that hansen can throw 100

he looks like a freshman girl on prom nite after she drank a bottle of tango and is now in the backseat of a 74 country squire wondering if her dress is going to wrinkle in the glove compartment..

 

someday perhaps

he will make marvelous bait for the man we need wherever he may be

 

anyways

problems we have are ny and toronto are the best offensvie teams in baseball now

anyone we have in that role will probably struggle a bit against these teams so closer by committee isnt out of the question at this stage of the game

 

timlin??

he worked his ass off for 15 years and pitched a lot of meaningfull innings in meaningfull situations

i hope he still has it

im of the opine that he dont anymore but im willing to be proved wrong

[jacksonianmarch]

Timlin will still have it in a reduced role IMO. I dont think he can be given a 70-80 inning workload anymore and expect to hold up.