Dontrelle to Yanks?

[Optimist]

No deal is worth dealing Hughes.

[Cocos Disciples]

Dontrelle Willis is a better pitcher than Ching Wang

 

I concur.

 

Dontrelle Willis:

 

2003: 160 IP, 14-6, 3.31 ERA, 142 K, 1.28 WHIP

2004: 197 IP, 10-11, 4.02 ERA, 139 K, 1.37 WHIP

2005: 236 IP, 22-10, 2.63 ERA, 170 K, 1.13 WHIP

2006: 223 IP, 12-12, 3.87 ERA, 160 K, 1.41 WHIP

 

Chien Ming Wang:

 

2005: 116 IP, 8-5, 4.02 ERA, 47 K, 1.24 WHIP

2006: 218 IP, 19-6, 3.63 ERA, 76 K, 1.30 WHIP

 

How many of Willis' seasons were better than Wang's first? 2003 was. 2004 was about the same...lower ERA, more K, a little higher whip. 2005 was by far. 2006 was.

 

How many of Willis' seasons were better than Wang's second? 2003 was. 2004 was a little worse. 2005 was miles better. 2006 was a little bit worse.

 

Oh, but he pitched in the NL...if this is the f***ing criteria for every pitcher who ever moves to the AL, let's bring the Mets into the AL and have everyone else go to AAA.

[Cocos Disciples]

No deal is worth dealing Hughes.

 

If I were the Yankees, I would deal Hughes straight up for:

 

Roy Halladay

Johan Santana

Scott Kazmir

Erik Bedard (Possibly)

Justin Verlander

Jeremy Bonderman

Francisco Liriano

Dontrelle Willis

Roy Oswalt

Brandon Webb

 

And thats just the starters. Why? Because Hughes has a lesser chance to become one of these players, than say, one of these players. This is something out of a700hitter's book...I would MUCH rather have major league talent that has proven they can win 14+ games with a good ERA, etc. than a prospect who COULD become better than that, but also could very well do absolutely nothing.

[example1]

Dontrelle Willis is a better pitcher than Ching Wang.....that doesn't mean Wang couldn't beat him in a game necessarily. Overall Willis has better stuff and a great personality (something Wang does not pocesses).

 

 

Very few people would rather have Wang than Willis. Willis has great stuff and Wang reminds me of D-Lowe. He's an extreme groundball pitcher who doesn't get a lot of K's. Willis has thrown 500 more professional innings and is 2 years younger than Wang.

 

I really don't see the two as mutually exclusive anyway, but I'd much rather have Dontrelle. Either would be great to have though.

[example1]

If I were the Yankees, I would deal Hughes straight up for:

 

Roy Halladay

Johan Santana

Scott Kazmir

Erik Bedard (Possibly)

Justin Verlander

Jeremy Bonderman

Francisco Liriano

Dontrelle Willis

Roy Oswalt

Brandon Webb

 

 

Out of those players I think only Bedard could be had without other pieces from the Yankees (barring that player being in the last year of a contract and the team dumping him to get some value). If I had any of the players listed above I would not trade them for Hughes unless Hughes came with another prospect.

 

And thats just the starters. Why? Because Hughes has a lesser chance to become one of these players, than say, one of these players. This is something out of a700hitter's book...I would MUCH rather have major league talent that has proven they can win 14+ games with a good ERA, etc. than a prospect who COULD become better than that, but also could very well do absolutely nothing.

[Cocos Disciples]

Yeah I wasnt saying a deal was possible, just guys I would trade Hughes for, without hesitation.

[example1]

Yeah I wasnt saying a deal was possible' date=' just guys I would trade Hughes for, without hesitation.[/quote']

 

Those are guys I would trade just about ANY minor league player for straight up.

[Beckett95]

Wang > Willis

 

Something tells me the D-train would struggle in the AL (especially the AL East)

[Beckett95]

Wang--19-6, 3.63 ERA, 218 IP, 12 HR, 2.85 GO/AO, 1.30 WHIP, 1.46 K/BB

 

Willis--12-12, 3.87 ERA, 223 IP, 21 HR, 1.61 GO/AO, 1.42 WHIP, 1.93 K/BB

 

Both are great and would be a pretty good 1-2 punch in the rotation, but id wouldnt even consider moving Wang for Willis

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

Rob Neyer had a great article on Wang and his low k rate awhile back. Wang has had pretty much the same K rate for 2 years and hes been fine. I chalk it up to having such an outstanding pitch and outstanding control of it.

[ARod2212]

SO by definition doesn't that mean that you would never trade for anyone in the NL? If Willis has to pitch for the Yankees before he pitches for the Yankees you're never going to get there. <_> I understand that, but if I'm forced to choose between the guy who has shown me he can do it and the guy who hasn't, the choice is pretty easy.

 

I'm not saying Willis is a bad pitcher, but I would not trade away a consistent, reliable (young!) starter for something that could blow up in our face.

[Gom]

I am sure that Marlins' management is motivated by hatred of the Red Sox. Too bad they didn't take that into account before they beat the Yankees in the 2003 World Series.

a700...the quote was sarcasm. I would give up Melky and Sanchez in a heartbeat. It would be funny if the team [via trade] that sabotaged a huge portion of the Red Sox's 2006 season sabotaged the coming one for the Sox again by taking below-market value for Willis from the Yankees.

You're quite the homer, aren't you?

On what planet is Wang a better pitcher than Dontrelle Willis?

Earth. Try living there sometime. It's kinda fun.

If you can name me one former Marlin pitcher who's had a good year in the AL East I'll drop it. Until he shows me he can do it' date=' I'm taking Wang.[/quote']

Agreed. Burnett, Beckett, and Pavano have underperformed in the AL East. I can think of three good reasons. Number one, they play in a huge pitchers park. Number two, they play in a very weak offensive division as compared to the AL East [although the gap has shrunk somewhat last year]. Number three, they have no DH. Kind of hurts when you play 1/4 of your games facing Giambi and Ortiz instead of El Duque at the plate.

 

Now to answer the lurid comparisons to Lowe. The difference is this, folks. No one in baseball throws the pitch Wang does. It's not that he has a sinker...it's that he throws it at 95 MPH. He has a unique pitch that no one else throws nearly as fast.

 

Think about this for a second. His sinker is as fast, if not faster than most player's fastballs. Players routinely beat it into the ground. So he may not strike out a lot of players, because he rarely if ever elevates his fastball/sinker, which most strikeout pitchers do. I'm sure if he wanted to strike people out, he could, at the expense of giving up more homeruns, which defeats the purpose. You pretty much need three hits off of Wang to score a run. That's what makes him so good. He keeps the ball in the park, doesn't walk a lot of hitters, and is not a big strikeout machine. Over 75% of the balls put in play against him are on the ground. I'm not saying he is Cy Young, but he's a damn good pitcher.

 

As long as his sinker keeps sinking at 95 MPH, you are looking at one of the top 5 pitchers in baseball. In the AL, only Santana and Halliday are better. I wouldn't put Dontrelle in the top 10 in baseball right now.

 

Anyways, it makes no sense to trade one for another, irrespective of the opinions of who is better. It is a worthless deal. They are close in age, and play the same position, and both make s*** for money [relatively speaking]. So it's never going to happen.

[a700hitter]

a700...the quote was sarcasm. I would give up Melky and Sanchez in a heartbeat. It would be funny if the team [via trade] that sabotaged a huge portion of the Red Sox's 2006 season sabotaged the coming one for the Sox again by taking below-market value for Willis from the Yankees.

So was mine, or was the winking smiley face too subtle?

[elsrbueno]

I'd rather have Wang' date=' without question. [/quote']

 

Sorry for the temporary immaturity-- but this guy said in 3 different ways that he prefers Wang. hehe.

 

Anyway back to the subject at hand. The difference between Wang and Dontrelle is that Dontrelle has proven he can hold his own in the NL East. Wang has proven that he can do the same thing in the AL East, which is an infinitely harder division to pitch in. The Mets are strong offensively, but can't even match the Yankees, and who'd you rather pitch against: The Orioles, Red Sox, Blue Jays, and Devil Rays or the Mets, Phillies, Nationals and Braves?

 

No brainer. Right now if I had Wang I wouldn't trade him for Willis straight up. Hughes for Willis straight up is a different alltogether.

[BSN07]

Let's say that Wang and Willis pretty much cancel each other out in the skill department. With both of them being good, I would take either for my team, if I had would pick, I would pick Willis over Wang . Because Willis is LH. LH pitchers with his stuff are alot more rare then RH pitchers with Wang's stuff.

 

Most dominate pitchers in the game today are RH. So knowing they come along more often then LH, I would grab the lefty while I could.

[example1]

Let's say that Wang and Willis pretty much cancel each other out in the skill department. With both of them being good, I would take either for my team, if I had would pick, I would pick Willis over Wang . Because Willis is LH. LH pitchers with his stuff are alot more rare then RH pitchers with Wang's stuff.

 

Most dominate pitchers in the game today are RH. So knowing they come along more often then LH, I would grab the lefty while I could.

 

Willis' potential for dominance is considerably higher than Wangs. And despite Wang's good season last year that's one good season, give him some time before we declare that he's the best pitcher in the AL.

 

Finally, I would take the 2 years YOUNGER Willis over the older Wang.

[riverside sluggers]

Wang--19-6' date=' 3.63 ERA,[/b'] 218 IP, 12 HR, 2.85 GO/AO, 1.30 WHIP, 1.46 K/BB

 

Willis--12-12, 3.87 ERA, 223 IP, 21 HR, 1.61 GO/AO, 1.42 WHIP, 1.93 K/BB

 

Both are great and would be a pretty good 1-2 punch in the rotation, but id wouldnt even consider moving Wang for Willis

 

And the year before, Willis ranked what like 3rd in Cy Young voting? His stats in 2006 were marred by a rought start in the first month or so

[Bosoxwest]

Yeah, Hughes and Cabrera and a B+-level, Duncan-type, I'm thinking. s***, Florida had an outside chance at the playoffs last year. Why not see if they can drum up some attendance on that puppy before you trade DW?

[Gom]

So was mine' date=' or was the winking smiley face too subtle?[/quote']

 

Just making sure. The idea of subtlety in New York is bashing someone over the head with a brick.

 

Sorry for the temporary immaturity-- but this guy said in 3 different ways that he prefers Wang. hehe.

 

As immature as that was, I laughed for two minutes.

 

I think we can all agree that both Wang and Willis are top tier pitchers. I think we can both agree that it makes little sense to trade them for each other. That being said...

 

Do you think the Marlins would accept the package the Yankees got for Sheffield [sanchez and the other guys, lol] and Melky for Willis?

 

You guys probably know more about the pitchers the Yankees got in the Sheffield deal than I do.

 

Do you think that is a fair deal?

[jacksonianmarch]

They said no to Hansen and Elsburry yet they're supposed to be considering this?

 

With all due respect, Cabrera is much better right now than Ellsbury simply because he has a successful rookie season under his belt. And Hansen is damaged goods with his poor performances early on. Not that I think this ludicrous offer will be accepted or anything.

 

Put me in the camp that thinks Dontrelle is overrated. His stock is sky high right now and the marlins dont need to deal him. He is bound to have another bad yr and will then command big bucks in arbitration. Right now, if the yankees did not want to give up Hughes, would take Sanchez, Duncan, and three more prospects, mostly all on the pitching end. The marlins are flush with young pitching yet they lack bats. Tabata might be the only match and the yankees would be foolish to deal him if they truly believe that his ceiling is as a Beltran type player. I think the yankees need to ride this season out and see where their prospects lie. They have a ton of pitching in that farm, yet Tabata and to a lesser extent Gardner and Duncan are the only two offensive guys worth more than a lipper of dip.

[jacksonianmarch]

On the wang vs willis debate, I'd take wang simply because he has proven he can handle NY, he was the wins leader last yr, and he doesnt give up HRs which kill you in the AL. He is perfect for the yankees and he should be deemed 100% untouchable.

[TheKilo]

I'd like to see Wang pull off a couple more decent season before we start calling him a "top tier pitcher"

 

He's good. But he's not there yet.

[jacksonianmarch]

he's good but not there yet? He led the majors in wins in his second season in the majors. That is about as top tier as you get right now. I am not sure if that is an indictment on the league or props to Wang, but it is what it is.

[TheKilo]

he's good but not there yet? He led the majors in wins in his second season in the majors. That is about as top tier as you get right now. I am not sure if that is an indictment on the league or props to Wang' date=' but it is what it is.[/quote']

 

 

Wins could be one of the worst statistics on judging whether or not a pitcher is any good. Entirely too team dependent.

[jacksonianmarch]

Wins could be one of the worst statistics on judging whether or not a pitcher is any good. Entirely too team dependent.

 

he had the era to justify it.

[ARod2212]

he had the era to justify it.

Wang 7th in the American League, Willis was 14th in the NL.

[example1]

Wang 7th in the American League' date=' Willis was 14th in the NL.[/quote']

 

Fun with numbers.

 

2005 MLB ERA LEADERS

 

Clemens

Pettitte

Willis

 

3rd in the NL. 3rd in MLB. Willis is the more talented but less consistent pitcher. He's younger and a tremendous athelete. I guess at some point it comes down to personal preference, but Willis has had the better season between the two of them in their short careers and he is younger (i.e., he'll likely have another season like that before too long).

[jacksonianmarch]

2005 was a long time ago my friend.

[ARod2212]

If you can guarantee me that Willis will have that kind of a season in the American League East, I'll take him. I think based upon empirical evidence that Wang is perfectly suited for the Yankees.

[redsoxrules]

If you can guarantee me that Willis will have that kind of a season in the American League East' date=' I'll take him. I think based upon empirical evidence that Wang is perfectly suited for the Yankees.[/quote']

 

fine by me cause he sucks against boston (wang that is )