Theo Epstein: Justly praised or overrated?

[RavenOfProphecy]

Guys, don't take this as sacreligious or anything, but I have been wondering for a while whether or not Theo Epstein deserved all of the praise he's getting for bringing the Red Sox a World Championship. I mean, sure, that was a big achievement, but looking at the big picture, (the 2003, 2005, and 2006 seasons), it seems as though he might be a tad overrated, and it seems as though other important executives (Larry Lucchino, Jed Hoyer, Ben Cherington specifically) were overlooked.

 

Let's start off in 2003, shall we? First, Theo got the idea somewhere (Bill James, perhaps?) to try the bullpen by committee approach. This included B.K. Kim (16 saves), Brandon Lyon (9), Chad Fox (3), Mike Timlin (2), and Tim Wakefield, Alan Embree, Robert Person, Bronson Arroyo, Casey Fossum, and Jason Shiell (1 save each) contributing in a bullpen that fell apart in the 2003 playoffs. It was mainly Grady Little's decision to leave Pedro Martinez in too long against the Yankees in Game Seven that killed the Red Sox, but it was a pretty bad idea overall.

 

In 2004, Theo had his best executive year, trading a package of players including Casey Fossum for Curt Schilling and picking up Keith Foulke before the season as a free agent. He traded Nomar at the deadline and received back Doug Mientkiwicz and Orlando Cabrera, two key cogs in the championship run that year.

 

But Theo was back to 2003 form in the offseason, letting Pedro, Derek Lowe, and Cabrera leave and replacing them with Matt Clement, David Wells, and Edgar Renteria, who have all been disappointments. After a very disappointing year which saw Curt Schilling and Keith Foulke completely underperform (below league average), Theo left the Red Sox.

 

Johnny Damon left for New York, and Jed Hoyer and Ben Cherington were tasked with co-GMing the Red Sox. They ended up making trades to bring Josh Beckett, Mike Lowell, Guillermo Mota, Mark Loretta, and Andy Marte to the Red Sox and dumped Edgar Renteria, one of Theo's failures.

 

When Epstein returned, he traded Mota and Marte, plus others (Marte being the best hitting prospect in the Red Sox' farm system) to the Cleveland Guardians for Coco Crisp and David Riske. Riske has since been traded for Javier Lopez, another disappointment. He also traded Bronson Arroyo to the Reds for Wily Mo Pena, who recently returned from an injury and, while good, is nowhere near Arroyo, who is contending for a Cy Young.

 

So, what I ask you is, is Theo really deserving of all of the praise he's gotten? In my opinion, he is certainly one of the best general managers in the game, but not everything he touches turns into gold. I'm extremely happy we have him on the Red Sox, but no more so than if Billy Beane hadn't backed out and was over here putting together winners for dirt cheap.

[ORS]

Ortiz, Mueller, Millar, and Bellhorn all say, "Hi". All key contributors to the championship, and all Epstein acquisitions.

 

All in all though, I'd say he's overrated by the fanboys and underrated by the obsessed. I'm still not convinced that letting all the big names go wasn't a calculated move to take advantage of the supplemental draft. Bowden, Buccholz, Hansen, and others aren't part of the bright future if those guys are resigned.

[DUSTINMOHR4LIFE]

I cant think of any GM's that havent made mistakes

[Anuj09]

Well we all know that with an era of above six Mota is having a great year

[RavenOfProphecy]

Ortiz, Mueller, Millar, and Bellhorn all say, "Hi". All key contributors to the championship, and all Epstein acquisitions.

 

All in all though, I'd say he's overrated by the fanboys and underrated by the obsessed. I'm still not convinced that letting all the big names go wasn't a calculated move to take advantage of the supplemental draft. Bowden, Buccholz, Hansen, and others aren't part of the bright future if those guys are resigned.

 

I was aware of the first four players, but none of the last three are exactly the kind of players that make a GM's career. David Ortiz, granted, was one of the best signings ever, but did Dan Duquette not make any big signings? Red Sox fans hated him, and he added Pedro Martinez, Derek Lowe, Manny Ramirez, Carl Everett, and Jason Varitek, and drafted Gary Sheffield (albeit for the Brewers.) Did Duquette make a big mistake saying that Clemens was in the "twilight of his career", but Theo failing to bring back Pedro Martinez was basically the same thing.

 

Duquette also brought in Kevin Youkilis and Alan Embree, and Trot Nixon, Tim Wakefield, and a few others were brought in that were major contributors before Duqette. So basically the members of our lineup that Theo was responsible for bringing in were Coco Crisp and Alex Gonzalez, while the co-GMs added Lowell, Loretta, and Duquette added Varitek, Youkilis, Ramirez. Did I mention that Duquette drafted Nomar Garciaparra, Carl Pavano, and David Eckstein? In his second year, 1995, the Red Sox won the division (the most recent win.) So, let's recap:

 

Theo Epstein: David Ortiz, Kevin Millar, Mark Bellhorn, Edgar Renteria, Bill Mueller, Wily Mo Pena, Curt Schilling, David Wells, Matt Clement, Mike Timlin, Keith Foulke.

 

Dan Duquette: Johnny Damon, Manny Ramirez, Pedro Martinez, Jason Varitek, Kevin Youkilis, Alan Embree, Derek Lowe, Nomar Garciaparra, Carl Pavano, David Eckstein, Carl Everett, Derek Lowe.

 

Theo's got a ring, which counts for a lot, but it's not like Dan Duquette was a dud, and he is definitely underrated and underappreciated by Red Sox fans. Had Duquette stayed around, I think the Red Sox would have won eventually. They finished in second place over each of the last four seasons of his tenure, and had two playoff appearances. Most of the pieces Theo got to the World Series with where inherited rather than added.

[RoyNHSox]

Let's start off in 2003, shall we? First, Theo got the idea somewhere (Bill James, perhaps?) to try the bullpen by committee approach. This included B.K. Kim (16 saves), Brandon Lyon (9), Chad Fox (3), Mike Timlin (2), and Tim Wakefield, Alan Embree, Robert Person, Bronson Arroyo, Casey Fossum, and Jason Shiell (1 save each) contributing in a bullpen that fell apart in the 2003 playoffs. It was mainly Grady Little's decision to leave Pedro Martinez in too long against the Yankees in Game Seven that killed the Red Sox, but it was a pretty bad idea overall

 

I have a tough time knocking Theo for a lot of 2003, largely because he was first coming to a team that had already been largely constructed by Duquette. The BBC did prove to be a failure but when Kim was moved into the pen he did a fair job in stabilizing the situation. Once the committee was dissolved and relievers were given their roles it did work out. It was a bad idea but Theo was reactionary in finding a solution.

I really don’t recall the pen falling apart in the 2003 playoffs. Embree, Timlin, and Williamson were solid, and the gripe was that Grady didn’t go to the pen when Pedro was obviously worn out in Game 7.

 

[RavenOfProphecy]

Well we all know that with an era of above six Mota is having a great year

 

True, he's not great, but was coming off of a season in which he was at least somewhat better. But Marte is one of the best prospects in the AAA minors (definitely one of the best 3B) and it's not hard to imagine him hitting dozens of home runs over the Green Monster for the next ten years. I think he could be a Troy-Glaus type offensively.

[RavenOfProphecy]

I have a tough time knocking Theo for a lot of 2003, largely because he was first coming to a team that had already been largely constructed by Duquette. The BBC did prove to be a failure but when Kim was moved into the pen he did a fair job in stabilizing the situation. Once the committee was dissolved and relievers were given their roles it did work out. It was a bad idea but Theo was reactionary in finding a solution.

I really don’t recall the pen falling apart in the 2003 playoffs. Embree, Timlin, and Williamson were solid, and the gripe was that Grady didn’t go to the pen when Pedro was obviously worn out in Game 7.

 

 

BK Kim had a 13.50 ERA, he was our top guy in saves. Brandon Lyon didn't even play...and you were pretty much right, though, because I didn't check these before I posted that. It does seem as though we didn't really have a closer to go to all the time though, other than Williamson, who got three saves. Derek Lowe was called in to save a game and Tim Wakefield went in after Pedro other than Williamson (but I can't quite remember when he last pitched.)

[Sox Fan on Cape]

I was aware of the first four players, but none of the last three are exactly the kind of players that make a GM's career. David Ortiz, granted, was one of the best signings ever, but did Dan Duquette not make any big signings? Red Sox fans hated him, and he added Pedro Martinez, Derek Lowe, Manny Ramirez, Carl Everett, and Jason Varitek, and drafted Gary Sheffield (albeit for the Brewers.) Did Duquette make a big mistake saying that Clemens was in the "twilight of his career", but Theo failing to bring back Pedro Martinez was basically the same thing.

 

Duquette also brought in Kevin Youkilis and Alan Embree, and Trot Nixon, Tim Wakefield, and a few others were brought in that were major contributors before Duqette. So basically the members of our lineup that Theo was responsible for bringing in were Coco Crisp and Alex Gonzalez, while the co-GMs added Lowell, Loretta, and Duquette added Varitek, Youkilis, Ramirez. Did I mention that Duquette drafted Nomar Garciaparra, Carl Pavano, and David Eckstein? In his second year, 1995, the Red Sox won the division (the most recent win.) So, let's recap:

 

Theo Epstein: David Ortiz, Kevin Millar, Mark Bellhorn, Edgar Renteria, Bill Mueller, Wily Mo Pena, Curt Schilling, David Wells, Matt Clement, Mike Timlin, Keith Foulke.

 

Dan Duquette: Johnny Damon, Manny Ramirez, Pedro Martinez, Jason Varitek, Kevin Youkilis, Alan Embree, Derek Lowe, Nomar Garciaparra, Carl Pavano, David Eckstein, Carl Everett, Derek Lowe.

 

Theo's got a ring, which counts for a lot, but it's not like Dan Duquette was a dud, and he is definitely underrated and underappreciated by Red Sox fans. Had Duquette stayed around, I think the Red Sox would have won eventually. They finished in second place over each of the last four seasons of his tenure, and had two playoff appearances. Most of the pieces Theo got to the World Series with where inherited rather than added.

 

 

Before you start singing praises to Dan D. take a look at what he did to the farm system and the massive contracts he left behind. How many young studs on the roster and waiting in the wings in the minors. Excuse me, Co-GM's were figure heads, Theo never really left. You don't know s***.

[schillingouttheks]

Dan Duquette is the reason that Mark Teixeira isn't our current first baseman.

[RavenOfProphecy]

Before you start singing praises to Dan D. take a look aqt what he did to the farm system and the massive contracts he left behaind. How many young studs on the roster and waiting in the wings in the minors. Execuse me, Co-GM's were figure heads, Theo never really left. You don't know s***.

 

I don't know s***? I'm suprised you can even spell that. It's no wonder you went into tax; you have the spelling ability of an eight year old. Hopefully you're better at math than you are at that. Then again, I suppose those fancy $100 calculators help a lot. Anyways, after I learned that I didn't "know s***", I went to go take a look at some of the major leaguers that Duquette drafted. Hey, maybe I would even learn something!

 

1994: Nomar Garciaparra, Carl Pavano

Garciaparra was traded by Epstein after becoming one of the best shortstops in Boston history (him and Joe Cronin are probably the top two.) Pavano was traded by Duquette in a deal that brought us Pedro. I'd say that's worked out pretty well.

1995: Paxton Crawford

Was 5-1 with a 4.15 ERA over his short career, but was drafted relatively late and was worth the wins he brought us. Had really good stuff, retired in 2001.

1996: Justin Duchscherer, Shea Hillenbrand, Aaron Harang

Duchscherer was traded for Doug Mirabelli in 2001. He's cheap and still in the league (and on the Red Sox, plus Tim Wakefield wouldn't have much success without him) so that worked out okay. Hillenbrand got to Boston in 2001 (age 25) and hit 33 home runs in just over two seasons. Theo traded him for BK Kim, Arizona getting the better end of that.

1997: David Eckstein, Nate Bump

Eckstein was waived before he made the majors.

1998: Adam Everett, Mark Teixeira, Lenny DiNardo

Everett was traded for Carl Everett - Carl hit 48 home runs in 249 games (34 in 2000 with 108 RBIs.) We got the better end of that. Teixeira didn't sign but wasn't a top pick.

1999: Casey Fossum, Lew Ford

Theo traded Fossum for Schilling. He was the main guy in that deal, so we can say that probably wouldn't have happened without Duqette.

2000: Manny Delcarmen, Freddy Sanchez, Kason Gabbard

Delcarmen is still on the team, so is Gabbard, both are good young players, both play(ed) in the majors. Your favorite GM traded Freddy (batting .351) and Mike Gonzalez (16 saves, 2.57 ERA) for Jeff Suppan, both at 28 years old.

2001: Kelly Shoppach, Kevin Youkilis, Jeremy Brown

Brown didn't sign, Shoppach and Youkilis did. Shoppach was traded by Theo, he's a good young catcher when we need one, and Youkilis is one of our best offensive players.

2002: Jon Lester, Chris Smith, Chad Spann, Brandon Moss, Jose Vaquedano

You may have heard of Lester. Spann and Moss are two of our better prospects (probably top ten), and the other two pitchers are pretty good minor league players.

 

So, you might say that Duquette brought in and kept Nomar, Crawford, Hillenbrand, Fossum, Delcarmen, Sanchez, Gabbard, Shoppach, Youkilis, Lester, Smith, Spann, Moss, Vaquedano. Pavano was traded for Pedro, Justin D. for Mirabelli, Everett for Carl Everett, all wins for us. Also, I'm not one for conspiracy theories and giving people undeserved credit when others did the work, so I'm not going to agree with the whole "Theo was the puppetmaster of the Red Sox even when he was away" thing. By the way, in order to be taken more seriously in the future, you might want to spellcheck a bit. You're a big boy, I'm sure you can do it.

[CrespoBlows]

I don't know s***? I'm suprised you can even spell that. It's no wonder you went into tax; you have the spelling ability of an eight year old. Hopefully you're better at math than you are at that. Then again, I suppose those fancy $100 calculators help a lot. Anyways, after I learned that I didn't "know s***", I went to go take a look at some of the major leaguers that Duquette drafted. Hey, maybe I would even learn something!

 

Surprised.

[RavenOfProphecy]

Dan Duquette is the reason that Mark Teixeira isn't our current first baseman.

 

True, but he is the reason that Kevin Youkilis IS our current first basemen.

 

Teixeira in '06: .273/.360/.464 with 14 HR, 62 RBI in 392 AB.

Youkilis in '06: .292/.400/.453 with 11 HR, 47 RBI in 360 AB.

 

Not a major deal if you ask me. Youkilis is better at producing runs and Teixeira is the more flashy player. If we were talking 2005, I'd be more inclined to agree with you, and I know that Mark is the better guy, but Youkilis has a bright future as well.

[RavenOfProphecy]

Surprised.

 

Aye wus juzt jowking inn orderr to prewve a ponte.

[CrespoBlows]

True, but he is the reason that Kevin Youkilis IS our current first basemen.

 

Teixeira in '06: .273/.360/.464 with 14 HR, 62 RBI in 392 AB.

Youkilis in '06: .292/.400/.453 with 11 HR, 47 RBI in 360 AB.

 

Not a major deal if you ask me. Youkilis is better at producing runs and Teixeira is the more flashy player. If we were talking 2005, I'd be more inclined to agree with you, and I know that Mark is the better guy, but Youkilis has a bright future as well.

 

Epstein is the reason why Youkilis wasn't traded. Beane almost poached him in 2002, but Epstein told Henry to hold on to him.

[CrespoBlows]

Aye wus juzt jowking inn orderr to prewve a ponte.

 

I don't think you were. You made a mistake, he made a mistake. No one's judging you over a spelling mistake.

[Cocos Disciples]

I have a tough time knocking Theo for a lot of 2003, largely because he was first coming to a team that had already been largely constructed by Duquette. The BBC did prove to be a failure but when Kim was moved into the pen he did a fair job in stabilizing the situation. Once the committee was dissolved and relievers were given their roles it did work out. It was a bad idea but Theo was reactionary in finding a solution.

I really don’t recall the pen falling apart in the 2003 playoffs. Embree, Timlin, and Williamson were solid, and the gripe was that Grady didn’t go to the pen when Pedro was obviously worn out in Game 7.

 

 

Yeah that bullpen was SUPERB in the 2003 playoffs.

[RavenOfProphecy]

Epstein is the reason why Youkilis wasn't traded. Beane almost poached him in 2002, but Epstein told Henry to hold on to him.

 

I'm confused as to why you say this...the one situation I can recall (reference at the end of Moneyball) was that Beane (regarded as the most cost-efficient GM in the game) would join the Red Sox and Paul DePodesta would receive Youkilis as competition. I think it would be beneficial to us to get the best GM in the game in exchange for a good, but not All-Star quality starter. In fact, the reason Theo was even hired was because Beane had a change of heart at the last minute and nothing was completed. As far as I know, Theo was working with the Padres until Larry Lucchino was brought over, and I wonder why he'd be giving John Henry advice (and even stranger, why Henry would listen to an opposing executive.)

[CrespoBlows]

I'm confused as to why you say this...the one situation I can recall (reference at the end of Moneyball) was that Beane (regarded as the most cost-efficient GM in the game) would join the Red Sox and Paul DePodesta would receive Youkilis as competition. I think it would be beneficial to us to get the best GM in the game in exchange for a good, but not All-Star quality starter. In fact, the reason Theo was even hired was because Beane had a change of heart at the last minute and nothing was completed. As far as I know, Theo was working with the Padres until Larry Lucchino was brought over, and I wonder why he'd be giving John Henry advice (and even stranger, why Henry would listen to an opposing executive.)

 

Theo was a Red Sox assistant for a while. If you look in the chapter The Trading Desk, and read about Youkilis, you will see where Epstein encourages his owner to shoot down the Youkilis trade.

[RavenOfProphecy]

I don't think you were. You made a mistake, he made a mistake. No one's judging you over a spelling mistake.

 

Chances are that you're one of the 80% that believes Barry Bonds perjured himself, but you'll never prove anything (evil laughter)! Anyways, I'm pretty sure you guys all think I hate Theo Epstein (unless you're just all blindly faithful to Theo), so let me draw your attention to the end of the first post in the topic:

 

"In my opinion, he is certainly one of the best general managers in the game, but not everything he touches turns into gold. I'm extremely happy we have him on the Red Sox..."

 

I don't hate Theo any more than you guys do, I was just trying to take an unbiased look at Epstein from the perspective of a non-Red Sox fan and just point out some of the things that it seems that people just ignore.

[Cocos Disciples]

Wait a second, why are you praising Duquette and bashing Epstein?

 

Duquette: 8 seasons, 3 playoffs, once getting to the ALCS.

Epstein: 3 seasons, 3 playoffs, twice getting to the ALCS, 1 WS.

 

Not to mention he has not traded away this excellent group of young players, Papelbon, Lester, Hansen, Delcarmen, Youkilis, etc.

 

Papi, Mueller, Bellhorn, Millar, Schilling, Foulke.

 

To be quite honest, there is no argument what so ever.

[RavenOfProphecy]

Theo was a Red Sox assistant for a while. If you look in the chapter The Trading Desk, and read about Youkilis, you will see where Epstein encourages his owner to shoot down the Youkilis trade.

 

Is that referencing the Cliff Floyd to Boston deal there with "Sing Song", where Beane asks Omar Minaya (or at least I think it was Minaya) to throw Youkilis into the deal? I don't have the book myself.

[RavenOfProphecy]

Wait a second, why are you praising Duquette and bashing Epstein?

 

Duquette: 8 seasons, 3 playoffs, once getting to the ALCS.

Epstein: 3 seasons, 3 playoffs, twice getting to the ALCS, 1 WS.

 

Not to mention he has not traded away this excellent group of young players, Papelbon, Lester, Hansen, Delcarmen, Youkilis, etc.

 

Papi, Mueller, Bellhorn, Millar, Schilling, Foulke.

 

To be quite honest, there is no argument what so ever.

 

I'm not really bashing Epstein, like I said, I'm just trying to point out things that are overlooked, and pointing out that Duquette was responsible for bringing in a lot of the key guys that led us to the championship. Theo pushed the team over the top, but Duquette was a big part of why we were so close in the first place. I mean, does anyone else see Theo going to the ALCS in his first year with the Royals? He had a second-place team with playoff experience coming in and turned them into a second-place team with a ring in two years. I'm sure it's been done before. And again, since everyone is ignoring this, I like Theo Epstein, I'm just trying to be unbiased.

[CrespoBlows]

Wait a second, why are you praising Duquette and bashing Epstein?

 

Duquette: 8 seasons, 3 playoffs, once getting to the ALCS.

Epstein: 3 seasons, 3 playoffs, twice getting to the ALCS, 1 WS.

 

Not to mention he has not traded away this excellent group of young players, Papelbon, Lester, Hansen, Delcarmen, Youkilis, etc.

 

Papi, Mueller, Bellhorn, Millar, Schilling, Foulke.

 

To be quite honest, there is no argument what so ever.

 

Re-read his argument. It's a pretty good one. He believes that Duquette is unfairly bashed. Which is kind of true.

 

If the New York Yankees weren't in the AL, that number of ALCS' would go up.

[RavenOfProphecy]

Re-read his argument. It's a pretty good one. He believes that Duquette is unfairly bashed. Which is kind of true.

 

If the New York Yankees weren't in the AL, that number of ALCS' would go up.

 

At least someone agrees with me (at least, on one front.)

[SCM33]

Comparing the Roger Clemens situation to the Pedro Martinez situation is completly f***in off the wall. Duquette replaced Clemens with Steve Avery, and Sox teams were AWFUL,TERRIBLE and ATROCIOUS following the year he walked. We didnt do so bad without Pedro last year, and what do ya know? First Place again this year......to let those guys walk like Epstein has done...and still be in first place.....yeah that Theo Epstein is a complete moron and has no clue what hes doing.

 

I think there is no comparison in the two.

Duquette signed dime a dozen shitbags who had a lucky season in 95 (Hanson, Tinsley, Wakefield who is still a steal, Belinda, Maddux) and it caught up to him. He completly ripped apart the whole farm system. Everything Theo has done has been almost opposite of Duquette....and in reality Theo is still paying for Duquettes stupid deals (ex. Manny Ramirez's contract), which hes been trying to unload eveer since he stepped in as GM

[RavenOfProphecy]

Comparing the Roger Clemens situation to the Pedro Martinez situation is completly f***in off the wall. Duquette replaced Clemens with Steve Avery, and Sox teams were AWFUL,TERRIBLE and ATROCIOUS following the year he walked. We didnt do so bad without Pedro last year, and what do ya know? First Place again this year......to let those guys walk like Epstein has done...and still be in first place.....yeah that Theo Epstein is a complete moron and has no clue what hes doing.

 

I think there is no comparison in the two.

Duquette signed dime a dozen shitbags who had a lucky season in 95 (Hanson, Tinsley, Wakefield who is still a steal, Belinda, Maddux) and it caught up to him. He completly ripped apart the whole farm system. Everything Theo has done has been almost opposite of Duquette....and in reality Theo is still paying for Duquettes stupid deals (ex. Manny Ramirez's contract), which hes been trying to unload eveer since he stepped in as GM

 

(Sigh) Yet another user who doesn't read half of the stuff posted here and then goes in with some criticism about me calling Theo a moron despite the fact that I've been saying that Epstein is a great GM. Anyways, Duquette fired Clemens after three mediocre seasons (well, not mediocre, but mediocre compared to his usual stuff):

 

9-7, 2.85 ERA, 168 Ks

10-5, 4.18 ERA, 132 Ks

10-13, 3.63 ERA, 257 Ks

 

When Theo got rid of Pedro, he got rid of one of the biggest parts of a championship team, and Petey wasn't nearly as bad as Clemens over his final three years with the Sox:

 

20-4, 2.26 ERA, 239 Ks

14-4, 2.22 ERA, 206 Ks

16-9, 3.90 ERA, 227 Ks

 

I mean, you don't even have to be a very big baseball fan to be able to come to the conclusion that Pedro's last three years in Boston were far better than Clemens', and if you look even deeper, it's even more obvious. Pedro got $10.8 million in his first year away from Boston, and Clemens got $8.4 million. Would you pay $8.4 million to a guy with those stats over the past three years? Maybe, but wouldn't you rather go $2.4 million extra for someone with Pedro's numbers? It's not like $10.8 is a ton; A.J. Burnett is getting $55 million over five years. Josh Beckett is getting $10 million next year, and Pedro is better than both of those guys, as good as Beckett is.

[SCM33]

(Sigh) Yet another user who doesn't read half of the stuff posted here and then goes in with some criticism about me calling Theo a moron despite the fact that I've been saying that Epstein is a great GM. Anyways, Duquette fired Clemens after three mediocre seasons (well, not mediocre, but mediocre compared to his usual stuff):

 

9-7, 2.85 ERA, 168 Ks

10-5, 4.18 ERA, 132 Ks

10-13, 3.63 ERA, 257 Ks

 

When Theo got rid of Pedro, he got rid of one of the biggest parts of a championship team, and Petey wasn't nearly as bad as Clemens over his final three years with the Sox:

 

20-4, 2.26 ERA, 239 Ks

14-4, 2.22 ERA, 206 Ks

16-9, 3.90 ERA, 227 Ks

 

I mean, you don't even have to be a very big baseball fan to be able to come to the conclusion that Pedro's last three years in Boston were far better than Clemens', and if you look even deeper, it's even more obvious. Pedro got $10.8 million in his first year away from Boston, and Clemens got $8.4 million. Would you pay $8.4 million to a guy with those stats over the past three years? Maybe, but wouldn't you rather go $2.4 million extra for someone with Pedro's numbers? It's not like $10.8 is a ton; A.J. Burnett is getting $55 million over five years. Josh Beckett is getting $10 million next year, and Pedro is better than both of those guys, as good as Beckett is.

 

 

I did read it, and you continually defend Duquette and point out Theos mistakes. You compared Clemens leaving to Theo allowing Pedro to leave, but money AND numbers aside, it appears the Sox are doing just fine without him, and I still think to this day.....as much as I loved Pedro, that he made the right decision. Had he signed Pedro, and Pedro got hurt, that would have been a very wrong decision and he would have been crucified for it.

 

The thing about it is, we knew Petey wasnt in the twilight, but it was a risk to resign. Duquette let it be known that he thought Clemens was on the downside of his career, and here he is ten years later still pitching well.

[guapo34]

Raven, I agree with alot of what you are saying, but comparing clemens contract from back then to contracts today is pretty pointless.

[RoyNHSox]

BK Kim had a 13.50 ERA, he was our top guy in saves. Brandon Lyon didn't even play...and you were pretty much right, though, because I didn't check these before I posted that. It does seem as though we didn't really have a closer to go to all the time though, other than Williamson, who got three saves. Derek Lowe was called in to save a game and Tim Wakefield went in after Pedro other than Williamson (but I can't quite remember when he last pitched.)

 

Kim’s 13.50 ERA was from his one appearance in the playoffs where he allowed 1 run in 0.2 IP. For the 2003 season he had a 3.18 ERA. He came on to be a starter, and because of the need for a closer he was moved into the role. Kim did eventually stink up the joint as the season went on , but I believe it was determined he had some kind of injury, similar to what DiNardo has now.

The 3 saves you mention for Williamson were from 3 save opportunities that he had in the ALCS.

Looking back you can say that Theo, in his first year as manager, misjudged the need for a solid closer, but the team did make it to the playoffs without one. Theo did learn from bullpen by committee problem and signed Foulke after the season ended.