Theo Epstein: Justly praised or overrated?

[CrespoBlows]

I was in favor of trading for Roberts, and signing Byrnes.

 

That way, Andy Marte is still in AAA. Ready to be our 3B in 2008.

[SCM33]

nice post chin music

do you think we win without petey lowe tek manny damon cabrerra and meintxxxx??

 

 

Ahh, Duke had nothing to do with Cabrera and Meintkawicz coming to Boston. Duke was fired in 2002. Read my whole post again. What did Theo have to do to get credit for winning a WS? Get rid of Manny, Pedro, Lowe and Varitek? Thats pretty f***in insane, and ridiculous. Theo won us a WS because he fixed holes that Duquette left. Dan Duquette would not have won us a WS, because A. Papi never would have come to town, B. He never would have made the Cabrera trade, C. He never would have signed Keith Foulke (Duquette has a history of underpaying for bullpen help) and D. He never would have signed Curt Schilling, instead he would have went out looking for another f***in David Cone, Frank Castillo, Hideo Nomo, Patt Rapp, Mark Portugal, Brett Saberhagen garbage heap type player which exemplified his existence as RedSox GM.

[RavenOfProphecy]

I was in favor of trading for Roberts, and signing Byrnes.

 

That way, Andy Marte is still in AAA. Ready to be our 3B in 2008.

 

I was in favor of trading Wells for Roberts as well. Wells wanted to go to SD, they wanted pitching, we needed a CF.

[SCM33]

I think Duke gets alot of credit also where it is NOT due. Case in point, Johnny Damon. A lot of people were against this move if you remember and in fact, many people thought he was severlely overpaid. While is was worhtwhile in the end, and it worked out for the best, lets not give him credit for something that everyone was against for Damons first two seasons here. I think everyone is forgetting how much Dan Duquette was disliked by players, media, and fans. I can actually think of times during the 97 season when I was sitting in the stands hearing the chants "Duquette sucks Duquette sucks" much like the anti-yankee chants.

 

Again, I was not a Duke hater, because he did do some nice things, and he was successful without spending too much money until the signing of Manny, Offerman, and taking on the contracts of Arroyo, Bichette and Lansing in a panic effort to fill gaps. I never hated Duke, I just think that some of the things Theo has done in the past three seasons are greater than the contributions that Duke made.

 

Posters also point out that Duke had brought in Youk, but whos to say that Duke wouldnt have traded the him away like he did so many other times with our prospects. Duquette had a win now attitude, and sacrificed the prospects for it. The difference Theo has made is that he is winning now, and he refuses to deal away the farm. He is winning now AND building for the future.

[Soxfan1]

Raven, did you have type to learn forced on you as a kid?

[Mr Crunchy]

Ahh, Duke had nothing to do with Cabrera and Meintkawicz coming to Boston. Duke was fired in 2002. Read my whole post again. What did Theo have to do to get credit for winning a WS? Get rid of Manny, Pedro, Lowe and Varitek? Thats pretty f***in insane, and ridiculous. Theo won us a WS because he fixed holes that Duquette left. Dan Duquette would not have won us a WS, because A. Papi never would have come to town, B. He never would have made the Cabrera trade, C. He never would have signed Keith Foulke (Duquette has a history of underpaying for bullpen help) and D. He never would have signed Curt Schilling, instead he would have went out looking for another f***in David Cone, Frank Castillo, Hideo Nomo, Patt Rapp, Mark Portugal, Brett Saberhagen garbage heap type player which exemplified his existence as RedSox GM.

 

1st of all duquette worked for harrington and not the 19 member strong investment group that now owns the sox

so he didnt always have a bottomless well of money to scrounge up and he didnt have to run every deal by larry luchino before they pulled the trigger.

 

2nd duke signed black and latin players that never were signing here previously for reasons that i dont want to get into

if youve followed this team as long as i have you know what im talking about

petey was the guy who brought ortiz in,theo obliged petey and they promptly put ortiz behind millar and jeremy giambi on the depth chart

do you remember this??

 

3rd

theo""upgraded the bullpen"" in 03 by dumping hillebrand for bunny kim

trading current nl batting leader freddy sanchez for scott sauerbraun and jeff suppan

of the 3 that we traded for,none were capable of making the playoff roster

none

we lose game 7 in 03 in 12 innings because of this and other mitigating factors

4th

you say he never wouldve traded for schilling

i say ********

this is based on what??

the fact he made an indentical deal in getting pedro tells my otherwise

5th

he never wouldve traded nomar for meintxxx and cabrerra

on this youre probably correct

i dont know many gms who would trade away the most popular ball player in 50 years for 2 rent a players

then turn around and essentially pay 19,000,000.00 for edgar renteria

6th

how much has foulke cost us??

after his buyout next year for another 5,000,000.00 we will have paid him 27,000,000.00 + for 1 1/3 years work.....

of which he was remarkable for 3 weeks in his 3 year redsox career

and for that i thank theo as well

 

he has a week to make our team better this year

based on last year im not optimistic larry will let him do what needs to be done

[riverside sluggers]

Obviously none of those guys are very good, but I was just listing the free agent outfielders available.

 

Yes available... before Damon finally decided between the Red Sox and yankees, which was on Dec 23. By that time there was just 4th/5th outfielder free agents & trade partners (IMO none were going to let the Sox have a trade done cheaply)

[riverside sluggers]

I was in favor of trading Wells for Roberts as well. Wells wanted to go to SD, they wanted pitching, we needed a CF.

 

I followed trade talks/rumors very closely this past offseason. Numerous reports showed that the Padres GM wanted to hold onto Dave Roberts, even when the Sox were offering David Wells back to them.

[CrespoBlows]

I followed trade talks/rumors very closely this past offseason. Numerous reports showed that the Padres GM wanted to hold onto Dave Roberts, even when the Sox were offering David Wells back to them.

 

Towers would have pulled the trigger if the Red Sox took on Woody Williams.

[RavenOfProphecy]

Raven, did you have type to learn forced on you as a kid?

 

Sorry, what? Could you rephrase that?

[RavenOfProphecy]

I followed trade talks/rumors very closely this past offseason. Numerous reports showed that the Padres GM wanted to hold onto Dave Roberts, even when the Sox were offering David Wells back to them.

 

CrespoBlows said that they would have sent us Roberts to take on Woody Williams, which seems fair. We need to replace Wells with someone, and they would have had Klesko, Cameron, and Giles to use in their outfield. Also turns out Woody Williams is 4-2 with a 3.15 ERA and David Wells has played in two games and is 0-1 with an 8.64 ERA.

[RavenOfProphecy]

Here are excerpts from an interesting article on Dan Duquette written by Tony Massarotti appearing in The Boston Herald on December 23rd, 2001 titled "Duke's Last Hurrah?" I thought it seemed relevant. No link because I got the article from the book Impossible Dreams by Glenn Stout (it's a compilation of articles pertaining to the Red Sox' history.)

 

"From the old to the new, the one thing everyone seems to agree on is that the Red Sox have improved to the point where they are, well, interesting...(Duquette) has spent so much time lately making significant, productive changes...Everett was sent to Texas. In the days immediately following, Duquette acquired Hermanson and John Burkett, then traded for Reese...the Damon signing came together...In Pokey, the Sox would have someone alongside Nomar Garciaparra who could turn a double play...And with Damon atop the batting order, the Sox would likely have...good baserunners with average to above-average speed...the Sox seem to have been injected with some much-needed energy and youth...the Sox may now be more equipped to (gasp) manufacture runs, something they have not done...ever?...Duquette lined up his options well during this offseason, especially given the fact he had several needs to fill...Duquette added three starting pitchers (OK, maybe two if you don't count Darren Oliver) as well as a leadoff man and a second baseman. He also disposed of Everett without taking on a significant financial burden, not be to overlooked...In the end what Duquette has done here is make some rather shrewd moves, though that is not completely a surprise. The Duquette Era has not been nearly the disaster that many are now making it out to be, primarily because the Sox thrice advanced to the postseason during his tenure. Duquette brought Pedro Martinez and Garciaparra to Boston, and made the trade that delivered Derek Lowe and Jason Varitek for Heathcliff Slocumb. He took a chance on Tim Wakefield. He signed Rich Garces. He even plucked someone like Daubach, whose production numbers over his first three seasons have been frighteningly consistent...The biggest indictment against Duquette, of course, has been the deterioration of the Red Sox' farm system, a fact that contributed mightily to the team's problems a year ago...And the Sox were forced to spend again, which is something the new owners clearly want to address."

 

EDIT: I also have a few links I found. The first one is negative, and the other two are positive.

 

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:rgiNoTWORt4J:www.theinsidepitch.com/Duquette.html+dan+duquette&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3

 

http://www.duquettesports.com/news_article21.html

http://www.duquettesports.com/news_article22.html

[Mr Crunchy]

the duke was a good baseball man,he had a great eye for talent

however

the duke was also a f***ing jerk

and that in my opinion is the reason he isnt in baseball

plus he has a ton of money so after his departure from the madness that is redsox baseball he may have said f*** this,ive had enuff

i get manny damon and pedro and they still fired my ass

 

i dont know if hes applied anywhere else,you??

[riverside sluggers]

Buster Olney is hearing rumblings of the Sox maybe trying another "Nomar 2004" type of trade. Stay tuned

 

Anybody who has struck rock while using a shovel could relate to the next trade tidbit. Heard from two talent evaluators yesterday that Boston is very active in trying to come up with a large and creative deal, involving more than two teams. Smart thinking, one of them said, if it all works. Crazy stuff you wouldn't normally think of, said another. An executive with an AL team reports that he's heard that a scout was rushed off his area coverage to go scout Boston minor leaguers.

 

But here's where the rock-striking part comes into play. I don't know if this is just a pebble of thought on the part of the Red Sox, or if this is a larger trade boulder, like the huge Nomar Garciaparra trade Boston hit on a couple of years ago, with all those moving parts. The Red Sox are looking for pitching, and they've talked about Julio Lugo in the past.

 

Red Sox executives are mum; execs from other teams say they are very active.

 

Take it for what it's worth.

[Soxfan1]

Sorry, what? Could you rephrase that?

You post so intelligently. I would have guessed you were in your 40's.

[Soxfan1]

Trade Rumor Roundup: 4 Days Left

 

What's cooking this morning in the world of MLB trade rumors?

 

Gotham Baseball's Mark Healey spoke to all sorts of baseball sources; here's his latest Rumor Mill. New developments: the Mets could pursue various Rockie pitchers, and the Yanks crave John Smoltz.

 

My Mets guy indicates that the Wilson Betemit for Scott Linebrink deal that's been bandied about could go down at the last minute. What? He hears things outside of the Mets.

 

SportsBlah sorts through the Alfonso Soriano rumors.

 

Jimmy Gobble was scratched from his start last night. Let the rampant rumormongering begin. Actually, KC just switched him with Runelvys Hernandez to break up the southpaws in the rotation.

 

As the days go by, Doug Melvin sounds more and more like he'll trade Carlos Lee.

 

RotoAuthority gives the fantasy take on Shin-Soo Choo, Ben Broussard, Scott Kazmir, and many more recent developments.

 

All the newspapers are reporting that the Yankees have deemed Scott Proctor "untouchable." I know good relief help is hard to find, but should a 29 year-old middling reliever at the peak of his value really be deemed untouchable? Especially the way Joe Torre is abusing him.

 

Hadn't heard of the Mets' interest in Juan Cruz and Jose Valverde until Dan Graziano mentioned it this morning. Could be a great buy low situation for a real live arm in Valverde. Cruz I think could be tough to pry away.

 

There was just no reason to try to start Roger Clemens trade speculation. The Astros, five games back in the wildcard, have invested way too much to suddenly wave the white flag.

 

Bidding war for...Cory Lidle? Looks like Toronto has the lead so far; Lidle starts tonight.

 

Buster Olney mentioned today in his blog that the White Sox are willing to discuss trades for Freddy Garcia. He also indicates that the Red Sox are working on a large, creative deal with more than two teams.

 

Add the Mariners and Cardinals to the Yankees for Shawn Green's interested parties. He can veto a deal to any of these three teams and is happy in Arizona.

[RavenOfProphecy]

I found a good quote summarizing Dan Duquette and Theo Epstein in the book Mind Game: "Though Duquette's Red Sox peaked in 1998 and 1999, his teams were consistently in contention. He wasn't at the helm for the Red Sox's recent championship, but he deserves credit for helping to provide its underpinnings. Ultimately, though, Duquette's 'GMitis,' along with his bad personal relationships, got the best of him. In many ways Duquette was a modern litmus test for how to handle the 'soft' aspects of being a sports executive in Boston. Theo Epstein, a more refined, mentally flexible, and affable version of the Duquette model, has been able to do what Duquette could not. Duquette could identify the team's needs, bu he was so eager to find solutions that he short-circuited many of his own plans before they could come to fruition." (Swydan/Murphy 33)

[a700hitter]

Theo's got a ring, which counts for a lot, but it's not like Dan Duquette was a dud, and he is definitely underrated and underappreciated by Red Sox fans. Had Duquette stayed around, I think the Red Sox would have won eventually. They finished in second place over each of the last four seasons of his tenure, and had two playoff appearances. Most of the pieces Theo got to the World Series with where inherited rather than added.

It's taken me a while to get to this thread and digest it. Raven, I have to say that I was intrigued by this thread since it was posted. I am glad that someone has pointed out that the major building blocks of the 2004 Championship team were brought in by Duke. He brought in Trot, Pedro, Damon, Manny, Lowe, Varitek and Nomar (although he wasn't there at the end). Theo gets credit for the finishing touches of Ortiz, Schilling and Foulke. However, let's remember that when Duke ran the team the prior ownership had much tighter purse strings. He did not have access to the financial resources that Theo does. If he did, I think Duke could have made the Sox a powerhouse. Sure Duke blew it by letting the Rocket go, but he already had his sights on Pedro who he got one year later. On his budget he couldn't have them both, so he went young and signed Pedro for 7 years. Who could have predicted that Rocket would have pitched for 10 more years and won 3 Cy Youngs. I don't think any reasonable baseball executive would not have swapped Clememns for Pedro in 97-98. Theo has had much more in financial resources at his disposal. Duke could never have signed two big money guys like Schilling and Foulke in the same off-season. Even with the additional resources, Theo has already made enough mistakes to equal the Duke. Three mistakes come to mind--letting Pedro, Lowe, and Damon walk. This was the heart of the 2004 team and he let it leave. You can talk about age and the need to get younger, but keeping these guys would not have prevented or impeded the development of the farm system. There is absolutely no reason that these guys could not have been retained while building for the future. I think we can find a spot in the rotation for Pedro, even though we have young Mr. Beckett and Mr Lester. Another four year of Damon would have ended just as Ellsbury would be ready to step in and take over CF.

 

I don't want to hear about the draft picks that we got for letting these guys walk, because it is just so ludicrous to justify losing an all-time great like Pedro for draft picks. This move makes Harry Frazee look like a genius for getting cash and a mortgage for Babe Ruth. Frazee could have bought plenty of players with that dough if he was interested in baseball. If I met Theo, I would thank him and kiss his ring, but the 2004 team was dismantled prematurely and unnecessarily. That group could have brought us one or two more titles, not to mention the one that Forest Gump, Grady Little let escape in 2003.

 

Finally, I gained a new appreciation for Duke when I learned that he went to the 2004 World Series on his own dime, not as a guest of the Boston Red Sox, because he wanted to see his players and his team win the Championship. It showed me that he was a fan at heart. That is also what I like most about Theo-- that at his core Theo is also a big fan. Running a team as a business requires an emotional detachment, but if the GM is not at least partly a fan and the fan's perspective is not represented, then the business is not being run properly.

[ORS]

I don't see where Duke was hamstrung by salary restraint. At the time of the Manny signing the Sox trailed the Yankees in total salary by a few million dollars. He was given some room to spend.

 

I don't think it fair to equate letting Pedro go to the Babe Ruth trade. Pedro was allowed to walk well after he had done what made him an all-time great, and well after his body was able to do what it took to be an all-time great. Ruth was traded for $$ while still in his early 20's.

 

They would have been able to rebuild the farm had they kept those 3 you so think they should have kept. Only, it would have taken another 3 years. They wouldn't have been able to do what they have done so quickly without those extra early round picks. I don't think they move the pieces needed to get Beckett if they can't restock the farm quickly. And, they'd be an older team than the Yankees right now, meaning they would be at more risk to losing key pieces to injury/fatigue. The goal after the championship was to get younger while staying competitive. I think it's been pretty remarkable how they have still been a top team in this division while getting substantially younger.

[riverside sluggers]

If I met Theo, I would thank him and kiss his ring, but the 2004 team was dismantled prematurely and unnecessarily. That group could have brought us one or two more titles, not to mention the one that Forest Gump, Grady Little let escape in 2003.

 

Are you also including the K King Bellhorn, Kevin Millar, and the (god bless him) close to retirement Bill Mueller? Fact of matter is if Theo resigned the whole 2004 team, the average age of the team would be at least 32/33

[a700hitter]

Are you also including the K King Bellhorn, Kevin Millar, and the (god bless him) close to retirement Bill Mueller? Fact of matter is if Theo resigned the whole 2004 team, the average age of the team would be at least 32/33

Millar and Bellhorn cannot be mentioned in the same breath with Pedro, Manny, Nixon, Damon, Schilling and Foulke. Bellhorn and Millar are not major building blocks but rather role players. Billy Muellar was a major cog, but not to the level of Pedro, and Damon. Also, the FO knew that his knees were very very bad. His knees have been a chronic problem before he came to the Sox. Of course, you can't keep the same roster intact from year to year, but you keep the centerpieces like Damon and Pedro and build around them. The Yankees roster changed from 96 to 2000, but they kept the major building blocks: Mo, Jeter, O'Neill, Cone, Knoblauch until they could no longer perform. They kept their horses and rode them to 4 championships until they broke down one by one and then they replaced them and they have remained competitive every year. It can be done--keeping your stars while retooling and building your farm system at the same time. The Red Sox have done a good job building the farm, but they have not done a good job of keeping the ML Club at a Championship level.

[ORS]

I posted this in another thread, but it belongs here. It is in regards to assessing what Theo did for the team at the deadline.

 

I think it's reasonable to wonder why a move wasn't made for Oliver Perez when starting pitching has been the Achilles' heel. He hasn't been good with the changed mechanics and resultant loss of velocity this year, but if you are making a run, let him chuck it for a couple of months and hope for the best. I find it hard to believe that they couldn't have put a package together that was more appealing than Xavier Nady without giving up who they really want to keep. f***, that team took on Shawn Chacon. I think he was trying to do something too big and too grand, and he missed out on smaller opportunities to help the club.

 

IMO, Theo was definitely aspleep at the wheel this trading season. Maybe not asleep at the wheel, perhaps more like delusions of grandeur prevented him from doing anything beneficial. I'm not pleased.

[MC Hammer]

I posted this in another thread, but it belongs here. It is in regards to assessing what Theo did for the team at the deadline.

 

 

 

IMO, Theo was definitely aspleep at the wheel this trading season. Maybe not asleep at the wheel, perhaps more like delusions of grandeur prevented him from doing anything beneficial. I'm not pleased.

You really wanted Theo did add an obvious former roid using pitcher ... who can no longer pitch?

[ORS]

You really wanted Theo did add an obvious former roid using pitcher ... who can no longer pitch?

More steroid accusations from MC Hammer? SHOCKING!

[yankeessuck013]

IMO, Theo was definitely aspleep at the wheel this trading season. Maybe not asleep at the wheel, perhaps more like delusions of grandeur prevented him from doing anything beneficial. I'm not pleased.

 

The deadline has come and gone no major move made by Theo and for that I applaued you as IMO I see no reason to make any trade that doesn't involve a Clemens/Zito. As is we have the best D in the majors and our offense is better than it was last year. With Wells to return tonight and granted if he's stays healthy he is as good a pickup as you can make right now. Then Wake should return with in a month, sometimes the best moves are the ones you don't make.

[Beckett95]

Unfortunately, the trade deadling couldnt be a week away. With the recent injuries to Nixon, MDC, Varitek, he could of used some more time to help find replacements for them. And from tonights game, its pretty clear that David Wells has nothing left. Im really shocked that he didnt go after another SP.

[guapo34]

Unfortunately, the trade deadling couldnt be a week away. With the recent injuries to Nixon, MDC, Varitek, he could of used some more time to help find replacements for them. And from tonights game, its pretty clear that David Wells has nothing left. Im really shocked that he didnt go after another SP.

 

I think we have a pretty good replacement for Nixon, and I think the price of starting pitching was more than they wanted to pay regardless.

[Beckett95]

The price may have been high, but now we dont have a 4th or 5th starter till Wake comes back. Snyder has been alright so far, but i wouldnt expect him to stay that way. Wells is done pitching and Clement's out for the year. So, who do we turn to now as our 4th/5th starters?

 

And not that Theo could have predicted this, but, if V-Tek has to go on the DL, we are SCREWED.

[NateGrey]

Ortiz, Mueller, Millar, and Bellhorn all say, "Hi". All key contributors to the championship, and all Epstein acquisitions.

 

All in all though, I'd say he's overrated by the fanboys and underrated by the obsessed. I'm still not convinced that letting all the big names go wasn't a calculated move to take advantage of the supplemental draft. Bowden, Buccholz, Hansen, and others aren't part of the bright future if those guys are resigned.

 

Thank Pedro for Ortiz ..

[CrespoBlows]

Thank Pedro for Ortiz ..

 

I don't think the sole reason Ortiz was brought in, because Pedro told Epstein to do that. The 2003 Red Sox did not have a quality 1B at the time of the deal, so they brought in Giambi, Millar, and Ortiz. Two of them would fill the 1B/DH holes.