Starters

[TheKilo]

Gf*** that. Then don't spend $120+ million on a payroll if you are not going to do what it takes to win. You either go all out to win or you build for the future. Anything in between is half -assed losing BS. I don't want to watch a team that i know has no chance of winning the WS just because they can hang with the pack and be competitive. He's wasting our time. Win or rebuild. This team can't win jack s*** the way it is currently constructed-- bad rotation, bad bullpen, no bench. Make up your mind if you can win with this team, Theo. Stop jerking us off.

 

Is there some rule that says you can't try to win, yet rebuild at the same time? Why do you think Theo signed guys like Crisp and Beckett? To contend now but also have an eye towards the future.

 

It's also freaking June for crying out loud. You're suggesting we blow it up because right now, you don't feel the Red Sox are true contenders in the AL. I think that we're in a lot better shape right now than most other teams in the AL. There's absolutely no need to panic just yet. Keep in mind the '04 team played .500 ball from May-August.

 

 

The bolded part of your quote makes me sick. You sound like a bandwagon Yankee fan whose sense of entitlement has gone through the roof. Win or I'm not watching? Pathetic.

[db41]

Schilling- Solid, f***in' solid. Go to war with this guy.

Beckett- Still learning to pitch in the AL, new hitters, no automatic outs every third inning, no sac bunts 3 times a game, and a DH to deal with. He'll be fine.

Wake- Do I even need to state the obvious? He's a gamer, eats innings, and will do anything to help the team win.

Clement-Ever seen Norman Bates in "Psycho?" He reminds me of D-Lowe inexplicably imploding upon his fragile mind, walking guys out of the blue after coasting for five innings. A sports psychologist would do this guy a world of good. Other than that, he's toast.

Wells- 15 wins last year, don't forget. It's just a bruise, and this fat guy loves to show people up. At least he has testicles.

Tavarez, Seanz, Riske- Trade them all, (throw in Mohr) to San Diego for a surfboard and a big fattie.

[a700hitter]

Is there some rule that says you can't try to win, yet rebuild at the same time? Why do you think Theo signed guys like Crisp and Beckett? To contend now but also have an eye towards the future.

 

It's also freaking June for crying out loud. You're suggesting we blow it up because right now, you don't feel the Red Sox are true contenders in the AL. I think that we're in a lot better shape right now than most other teams in the AL. There's absolutely no need to panic just yet. Keep in mind the '04 team played .500 ball from May-August.

 

 

The bolded part of your quote makes me sick. You sound like a bandwagon Yankee fan whose sense of entitlement has gone through the roof. Win or I'm not watching? Pathetic.

I always watch, but watching a team that I believe can be fixed to win that is not because Theo doesn't want to sacrifice the future is just a recipe for losing and mediocrity. You can win and rebuild at the same time if you have the horses to win. The way this team is put together it cannot win. It has several missing pieces. One or two missing pieces can be filled without dipping intop the minor league talent pool, but not 4 or 5 pieces. The Sox need two reliable starters, two reliable bullpen guys, and at least one productive bench player. Theo can only make this happen by sacrificing some talent. I don't like that he has to do this, but they constructed this roster foolishly. If he only fills three of these spots because he doesn't want to give up a top prospect or two, they can be competitive, but the best they will do is a wipe-out in the first round of the playoffs. I have a strong disagreement with that approach. Is that allowed? As a fan, can I hope management makes their best effort to win this year?

 

BTW I would never stop watching. I never have. I travel to many states to watch away games and I make several trips to Fenway. I log alot of miles watching the Sox, so don't get sick. You misunderstood my post. I think, however, that if Theo lets this roster stay this way, he is wasting our time. I don't want to watch that kind of team. I did not say that I will not watch the team.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

I always watch, but watching a team that I believe can be fixed to win that is not because Theo doesn't want to sacrifice the future is just a recipe for losing and mediocrity. You can win and rebuild at the same time if you have the horses to win. The way this team is put together it cannot win. It has several missing pieces. One or two missing pieces can be filled without dipping intop the minor league talent pool, but not 4 or 5 pieces. The Sox need two reliable starters, two reliable bullpen guys, and at least one productive bench player. Theo can only make this happen by sacrificing some talent. I don't like that he has to do this, but they constructed this roster foolishly. If he only fills three of these spots because he doesn't want to give up a top prospect or two, they can be competitive, but the best they will do is a wipe-out in the first round of the playoffs. I have a strong disagreement with that approach. Is that allowed? As a fan, can I hope management makes their best effort to win this year?

 

BTW I would never stop watching. I never have. I travel to many states to watch away games and I make several trips to Fenway. I log alot of miles watching the Sox, so don't get sick. You misunderstood my post. I think, however, that if Theo lets this roster stay this way, he is wasting our time. I don't want to watch that kind of team. I did not say that I will not watch the team.

 

I don't really get it.....we have a good team and are in the mix right now. Baseball is really about bringing guys in when the time is right. Sometime in August is the time to get the guys back who are injured and bring up the kids who have the guns to make a difference. When the rosters expand you may see Hee-Seop Choi, Dustin Pedroia, or David Murphy be that bench player you are looking for. Willy Mo Pena will be back from the disabled list and will be as strong a player you can get off the bench.

 

Sometime later in the year we may see David Wells make a return and pitch well since he certainly has a well rested arm. Jon Lester may open some eyes and contributed stronger and earlier than people expected. Craig Hansen will probably have his control problems figured out for the stretch run.

 

.....its still freakin June. The Red Sox have a better record now than they did last season. This is not the time to get nervous and make tons of moves when you still have plenty of time to find options and let guys come around to the point where they are effective.

[ksushi]

What Zito and Willis will cost is completely out of range when you look at what the sox will be willing to pay. They will both cost you Lester AND Hansen. No doubt about that. Probably Ellsbury or Pedroia and some lower level guys like Bowden or Soto. No thanks. An attainable guy that can fill the 4 slot is John Thompson. Clement and Bucholz or Clement and Alvarez can realistically get done and net you a guy like Thompson.

[Beckett95]

Id be interested in either Armas Jr. or Ramon Ortiz. Which everone comes at the lowest price.

[yankeessuck013]

Thompson? No, thanks. 2-6 with a 4.68 ERA in the NL.

[Beckett95]

Thompson? No, thanks. 2-6 with a 4.68 ERA in the NL.

 

Thomson's not a bad option, but there are other guys who might be better

[Beckett95]

Armas could be a steal. He's has a decent K/BB ratio (1.90) and a solid whip (1.33). He's only let up 6 HR on the year and has never finished a season with an ERA above 5 (this year its at 4.18).

 

The good thing about Ortiz is that he's had success in the AL and is a groundball pitcher. And he's only let up 26 BB this year, and has 45 K's.

[ksushi]

Ramon Ortiz is a guy who is pretty intruiging actually, Thompson was mentioned by gammons on the radio today. He isn't a terrible option, but yeah, Ortiz is a guy who I would try to pry away.

[SCM33]

Is there some rule that says you can't try to win, yet rebuild at the same time? Why do you think Theo signed guys like Crisp and Beckett? To contend now but also have an eye towards the future.

 

It's also freaking June for crying out loud. You're suggesting we blow it up because right now, you don't feel the Red Sox are true contenders in the AL. I think that we're in a lot better shape right now than most other teams in the AL. There's absolutely no need to panic just yet. Keep in mind the '04 team played .500 ball from May-August.

 

 

The bolded part of your quote makes me sick. You sound like a bandwagon Yankee fan whose sense of entitlement has gone through the roof. Win or I'm not watching? Pathetic.

 

 

I agree. Everyone is freaking out like we are 10 games out. We were leading this thing and we have not played very well lately, which is very encouraging. Just remember, we think we have it bad, but we are a first place contending team. Imagine what its like to be a fan in KC, Colorado, TB or other shithole ball teams. We are playing awful, and we are still contending right now, keep the faith.

[mar_022]

Theo has stated before that when he came back he wasn't going to go all out for one season. Don't expect anything big. I would be shocked if the sox made a huge move.

 

In this article, Theo says, "We ABSOLUTELY need to find a starter." I realize this doesnt necessarily mean a huge trade, but it will most likely be external, as there are no more internal options

 

http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060615&content_id=1507522&vkey=news_bos&fext=.jsp&c_id=bos

[mar_022]

I also read today online that Ervin Santana can be had for a "Big Bat", not that the Red Sox have one to spare, but just an idea...maybe a 3-way deal

[SCM33]

I also read today online that Ervin Santana can be had for a "Big Bat", not that the Red Sox have one to spare, but just an idea...maybe a 3-way deal

 

A lot of things have to happen for that to work.

[jsinger121]

In this article, Theo says, "We ABSOLUTELY need to find a starter." I realize this doesnt necessarily mean a huge trade, but it will most likely be external, as there are no more internal options

 

http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060615&content_id=1507522&vkey=news_bos&fext=.jsp&c_id=bos

 

Of course they need a starter but they are not going to get a big name or trade any of their top prospects to get one.

[TheKilo]

They need someone to sack up. Schilling did his job on Tuesday, but Clement and Wake were pretty disappointing.

 

 

Here's hoping Lester is the stopper and they crush Atlanta tomorrow.

[db41]

Of course they need a starter but they are not going to get a big name or trade any of their top prospects to get one.

I have a great idea and I don't think anyone's thought of it yet. There's this Arroyo guy in Cincy that's got 8 wins, has a rubber arm (96 innings), and a 2.51 ERA. He'd be great. <_>

[rician blast]

but what would it take to get him? It's not like any sane team is gonna agree to a trade take someone like Wily Mo Pena for Arroyo.

 

stupid fkn trade and we all knew it when it was announced, no?

[jsinger121]

you can't assess a trade that was made for the future 3 months after it happened. I

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

I really like Ervin Santana. Considering Gabe Kapler is on his way back....perhaps we could move Willy Mo Pena for Ervin Santana. I would imagine more pieces need to be involved but those would be the big names.

 

I like Willy Mo....but I like Ervin Santana more.

[yankeessuck013]

There was no word before last night's game on Matt Clement, who returned to Boston for an MRI on his ailing right shoulder. It's unlikely, however, that Clement will be able to make his next scheduled start, Monday at Fenway. Among the names said to be available: Tony Armas Jr. (Washington), Gil Meche (Seattle), Kyle Lohse (Minnesota), Scott Elarton (Kansas City) and Jeff Weaver (L.A. Angels).

 

Doubt well be able to get Sanatan from LAA. Because in the Winter we wanted to do a Manny for Santana, Figgins, Wood trade for Manny and a prospect and the Angels had no interest,

[TheKilo]

but what would it take to get him? It's not like any sane team is gonna agree to a trade take someone like Wily Mo Pena for Arroyo.

 

stupid fkn trade and we all knew it when it was announced, no?

 

 

No. Because at the time we dealt our long man out of the bullpen for a guy who could hit 35-40 HRs consistently in a few years.

 

 

But then again hindsight's 20/20.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Doubt well be able to get Sanatan from LAA. Because in the Winter we wanted to do a Manny for Santana, Figgins, Wood trade for Manny and a prospect and the Angels had no interest,

 

Thats because we wanted Brandon Wood and Howie Kendrick (2 of the best prospects in baseball) and one of the better young pitchers in the game for a $20 million power hitter.

 

Willy Mo Pena certainly doesn't cost as much as Manny, he is younger which the Angels are always excited about and we would be asking for one player...not 4

 

Despite those reasons I still think its a tough move. It would be like us trading Bronson Arroyo for Ervin Santana. If we could fill in another piece for them then perhaps they could figure something out.

[rician blast]

you can't assess a trade that was made for the future 3 months after it happened. I

 

not sure I agree...let's say this:

 

you can't assess the future of a trade 3 months after it happened.

 

assessing it currently, or even immediately as it happened, is absolutely appropriate. My point is that we've seen that pitching and defense win titles...or at the very least contribute greatly to winning titles.

 

When the trade occurred, many of us wondered why we'd fck Arroyo and ship him off for Wily Mo when there were obvious question marks in the starting rotation (i.e. Clement, Beckett's health, fat boy Wells, etc.)

 

So I am not even looking at the future of this trade at this point...maybe in the long run it works.

 

But in the near term , in the present, it would be awfully nice to have that rockin' righty on our staff.

 

This ain't hindsight...this was the position many expressed at the time...and as of right now, they were right.

[ksushi]

I love the Pena trade, I think if given the chance to get corner outfield talent like that you have to do it. I doubt he will be going anywhere at the deadline. Ervin Santana is most probably nothing more than a pipe dream at this point. If we could get him, I would send any position player prospect in our organization to get the bat (soriano, carlos lee etc.) to then swing to the angels for Santana. I would trade any position player for it including Pena. I don't think it will happen though. Ramon Ortiz was mentioned earlier in this thread and that is a name I like a lot. I don't know if Washington will deal him, but I'd love to see him land here if they do intend to send him packing. I don't think his price tag will be too too high either. Another guy to think about is Russ Ortiz. Definetly a junk heap signing. Chances are he would be junk too. If I were Theo I would give it a chance right now. Clement is a mess, Ortiz could do no worse.

[RoyNHSox]

Overall I’m unimpressed for what’s out there for pitching right now. Any “big name” player will come with a price tag that is outrageous. I’m hoping as we get deeper into the weeks before the trading deadline some more appealing names will become available.

 

The Arroyo trade right now looks bad, but the book is still open on that one. I’m letting it go, moving on, and looking for names that can help now. I see no reason to bring this up at this point, unless you want to try to make a case that Theo doesn’t do a good job in evaluating pitching. And as we’ve seen this argument can go either way.

 

I was looking over some of the past threads and the name Oliver Perez jumps out again. His overall value has dropped over the past two years, but I still see some upside: a fairly young powerful lefty who could fill a role in the rotation, not too expensive, and I don’t think he’d be too intimated in the AL.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

I was looking over some of the past threads and the name Oliver Perez jumps out again. His overall value has dropped over the past two years, but I still see some upside: a fairly young powerful lefty who could fill a role in the rotation, not too expensive, and I don’t think he’d be too intimated in the AL.

 

I saw Oliver Perez as well too. I assume you are talking about the Oliver Perez from Pittsburgh. He is still very young and at one point was dominating the league. I don't know what has happened since then but he has really struggled. I think his mechanics are a mess but his stuff is still real decent. His velocity has dropped a little too. Certainly something to look at but there has to be a reason he has fallen so fast....perhaps the Red Sox can figure it out for him.

[ksushi]

They need someone to sack up. Schilling did his job on Tuesday, but Clement and Wake were pretty disappointing.

 

 

Here's hoping Lester is the stopper and they crush Atlanta tomorrow.

 

Alright, I just wanna point out that Wake was not dissappointing. He pitched well enough to win that game and he pitched a little hurt, not much but regardless he did not dissappoint. 3 ER in 6 IP is not bad. His record sucks, yes, but everyone is bagging on him and grouping him with Clement as another bad starter. Not the case.

 

Here is to hoping Schilling keeps it up, Beckett turns it up, and Lester mans up. If so, we have a rotation.

[dgalt56]

i agree 100%... i think our rotation is good enough right now to win us ball games. we could use another starter but if our offense warms up like it always does then we have plenty of time to play out our cards and see what happens.

[TheKilo]

Alright, I just wanna point out that Wake was not dissappointing. He pitched well enough to win that game and he pitched a little hurt, not much but regardless he did not dissappoint. 3 ER in 6 IP is not bad. His record sucks, yes, but everyone is bagging on him and grouping him with Clement as another bad starter. Not the case.

 

Here is to hoping Schilling keeps it up, Beckett turns it up, and Lester mans up. If so, we have a rotation.

 

 

Wasn't it 4 ER in 6?

 

Wake has been the second best starter after Schilling, but in a game where we needed him to pitch really well, he was markedly average. That, to me, is disappointing.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love Wake. But he was sort of disappointing last night. Doesn't help that the offense continued to struggle as well.