The Jeter Isn't Clutch Thread

[He Hate Me]

Or, you can ridicule the ones that give uncomfortable answers. You seem to be pretty familiar with that.

 

The stat he used magically wiped away two game winners by Jeter after the 8th inning.

[Mr Crunchy]

i remember that like it was yesterday

do you remember the 1-56 with risp after the 8th inning??

 

these #s are based on jeters production in driving in runners after the 8th inning(with men on base)...

 

if you think 2 career hits after the 8th inning is producing its no wonder why the yanks pay 16M to johnson 7M to wright 10M to pavano 19M to jetsey and mussian and 13M to damon

 

you guys are very very easy to please

[rician blast]

From an unidentified website:

 

The situations one would want to look at in trying to determine the Clutchness of a player would be the following:

 

- Runners in scoring position

- Runners in scoring position with two outs

- Close and late

 

The first two are self-explanatory. "Close and late" is defined as "results in the 7th inning or later with the batting team either ahead by one run, tied or with the potential tying run at least on deck. In other words, how does someone do when the game is on the line?

 

Here are Derek Jeter's post-season numbers in those situations from 2000-2003, combined...

 

Runners in scoring position: .214/.421/.357

Runners in scoring position with two outs: .188/.381/.375

Close and late: .176/.263/.323

 

 

Retrosheet does not have Jeter's numbers close and late for his entire post-season career but what it does have is Jeter's numbers with men on base and with men in scoring position unlike ESPN.com. So for his entire 99-game post-season career (through 2003):

 

Runners in scoring position: .210/.355/.306

Runners on base: .245/.345/.329

 

Fkn A, those are sweet numbers.

[He Hate Me]

i remember that like it was yesterday

do you remember the 1-56 with risp after the 8th inning??

 

these #s are based on jeters production in driving in runners after the 8th inning(with men on base)...

 

if you think 2 career hits after the 8th inning is producing its no wonder why the yanks pay 16M to johnson 7M to wright 10M to pavano 19M to jetsey and mussian and 13M to damon

 

you guys are very very easy to please

 

Those HRs I pointed out was to show you how slanted the stat was. I won't bother getting into an argument about Jeter's clutchness, because frankly both our minds are made up on that subject. I'm only showing you that your magical stat ignores some things.

[He Hate Me]

From an unidentified website:

 

The situations one would want to look at in trying to determine the Clutchness of a player would be the following:

 

- Runners in scoring position

- Runners in scoring position with two outs

- Close and late

 

The first two are self-explanatory. "Close and late" is defined as "results in the 7th inning or later with the batting team either ahead by one run, tied or with the potential tying run at least on deck. In other words, how does someone do when the game is on the line?

 

Here are Derek Jeter's post-season numbers in those situations from 2000-2003, combined...

 

Runners in scoring position: .214/.421/.357

Runners in scoring position with two outs: .188/.381/.375

Close and late: .176/.263/.323

 

 

Retrosheet does not have Jeter's numbers close and late for his entire post-season career but what it does have is Jeter's numbers with men on base and with men in scoring position unlike ESPN.com. So for his entire 99-game post-season career (through 2003):

 

Runners in scoring position: .210/.355/.306

Runners on base: .245/.345/.329

 

Fkn A, those are sweet numbers.

 

I thought he was 1 for something in your other stat. Please, just stick with one stat and go from there.

[rician blast]

The stat he used magically wiped away two game winners by Jeter after the 8th inning.

 

Hate:

 

what two game winners did this wipe away? I'm asking because I'd like to understand where this guys stats fall short...i.e. why they're missing the mark, if indeed they are.

 

I will say this...the late and close thing is limited in some respects because a third inning 3 run hr, for exampe, that puts a team up 5-0 changes the complexion of a game and may result in the opponent throwing away the game to save arms...so early-in-game performances don't garner the recognition they should sometimes.

 

However, the stats we're talking about here are what they are...game is on line, RISP, etc. and they measure what the player does in that situation.

 

Thinking of things from a Sox fans perspective, ignoring numbers and going on gut, if it were 4-4, bottom of ninth, winning run on second and Jeter up, I'd feel a lot better than if it were Matsui up or even Sheffield...and I don't know what their "clutch" stats say, just know both scare me more than Jetes and certainly way more than ARod would.

[rician blast]

I thought he was 1 for something in your other stat. Please, just stick with one stat and go from there.

 

while the latest article didn't say he wasn't 1 for something, what I was trying to show is that another source seemingly slices and dices things somewhat differently, and I'm not sure what exactly the differences are in terms of his criteria, but consistently these guys show Jetes to be less than stellar in the confines of "clutch situations".

 

I apologize for confusing anyone with more stats, and while I saw article after article contradicting the theory that Jeter is clutch, I will, for now, not add any additional evidence....its pretty overwhelming at this point anyway.

[He Hate Me]

Hate:

 

what two game winners did this wipe away? I'm asking because I'd like to understand where this guys stats fall short...i.e. why they're missing the mark, if indeed they are.

 

The stat disregards hits like his game winner last year in April and his game winner against the DBacks in 2001 WS.

 

I will say this...the late and close thing is limited in some respects because a third inning 3 run hr, for exampe, that puts a team up 5-0 changes the complexion of a game and may result in the opponent throwing away the game to save arms...so early-in-game performances don't garner the recognition they should sometimes.

 

That being said I would still much rather have a Ortiz 8th inning blast than an Arod 3rd inning blast. Both are important IMO, but the late inning play is the stuff that stays with you psychologically. If Ortiz never gets another hit in the 8th for the rest of the year, I would still intentionally walk him with first base open. That's just straight up honesty.

 

However, the stats we're talking about here are what they are...game is on line, RISP, etc. and they measure what the player does in that situation.

 

Thinking of things from a Sox fans perspective, ignoring numbers and going on gut, if it were 4-4, bottom of ninth, winning run on second and Jeter up, I'd feel a lot better than if it were Matsui up or even Sheffield...and I don't know what their "clutch" stats say, just know both scare me more than Jetes and certainly way more than ARod would.

 

Ok that's more sensible since we're talking about a stat that basically measures a hitter's ability to drive in runs. This is something I don't feel jeter has ever been good at, whether it be in the first inning or in the 9th. Why do I still label him clutch? because he is the one who is scoring the runs for the people who get the clutch hits. I don't know Johnny Damon's stat last year when applied with the same formula but it probably isn't that high either. However, someone had to be on base for Ortiz to succeed in that type of situation.

 

Driving in runners is just one part of being clutch (albeit a huge part), but there are many other things that makes one clutch. Just remember, the clutch RBI guys can't be clutch if the guys ahead of them arent being clutch by not being on base.

 

I don't know Jeter's OBP after the 8th or 7th or whatever, but it seemed to me that he was a part of every big rally in the last 10 years.

[Mr Crunchy]

jeters a good ballplayer who evidnetly cant hit with runners on after the 8th inning

i'd take him over alex gonzales

[ARod2212]

Jeter's line from last night,

4-5 (2B, HR), 4 RBI, 3 Runs scored, BB, SB

 

.349 AVG, .922 OPS

 

At this point I don't care if you guys don't think he's clutch. He's one of the best players in baseball this season.

[rician blast]

Jeter's line from last night,

4-5 (2B, HR), 4 RBI, 3 Runs scored, BB, SB

 

.349 AVG, .922 OPS

 

At this point I don't care if you guys don't think he's clutch. He's one of the best players in baseball this season.

 

personally, I don't care if he's clutch or not, as long as he isn't clutch against the Sox.

 

(which I'm pretty sure the numbers will show he isn't).

[Varitek33]

__________________

Why dont you go piss up a Yankees fan site then?

 

You're so f***in smart and you think your team has got it?

 

 

Then leave us the f*** alone and go somewhere else and suffer.

 

 

You Yankee Trolls are like Tics man... the wetter it gets the more you spring up..

 

 

Blah.

 

I don't understand why Yankee fans are here.......

[TheRivernator]

I don't understand why Yankee fans are here.......

 

I am sure you have trouble understanding a whole lot more than that there skippy...

[RedRuffing15]

I don't understand why Yankee fans are here.......

To keep reality in tact

[rician blast]

ok, so here are the Mets GIVING the game to the Yankees...well ok, in fairness it was Wagner giving it away.

 

And up comes none other than the man who was the impetus for this thread.

 

Excellent oppoertunity to be clutch. Didn't even have to face the Mets closer. What does he do?

 

Feeble ground out to 2b.

 

Damn, maybe those "clutch" stats mean something after all?

[He Hate Me]

http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~hobd8260/BeatDeadHorse.gif

[Sox fan in Tex]

To keep reality in tact

 

... Or to brag about their 26 Championships. Then, we bring them back to reality (aka an OF of Damon, Cairo and Cabrera -- an old and worthless pitching staff -- a few players on the juice -- an overrated third baseman -- and a manager that won't lead his team to a championship title again). Poooooor Yankee fans.

 

P.S. Back on topic: Papi hits .331 at Yankee Stadium with 12 HRs in 36 games, what does Jeter hit at Fenway? I'll give you a hint -- it is lower than .245.

[rician blast]

http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~hobd8260/BeatDeadHorse.gif

 

 

touche', Hate.

[Mr Crunchy]

between him and arod in the late innings you have a gigantic hole

and now with ""the giambino"" hitting .240 this month,matsui gone for the year and sheffield out with his and posada has been out since the home plate collision

 

i dunno why sheffs out...do you??

 

i can only assume he got my mail telling him how much more arod matsui damon and jeter make than he does and how torre doesnt respect him and how steinbrenner set up doc gooden......and how he should tank it to show the league how important he is to them

[ARod2212]

i dunno why sheffs out...do you??

Ah, a veritable moron.

[TheKilo]

Ah, a veritable moron.

 

 

He hurt his wrist, think there's any truth to the rumor he's upset he didn't get an extension yet?

[Mr Crunchy]

the ole fist pump mustve got sheff but never underestimate the respect card

especially with terrence long playing left field,hes a disaster and sheff has sunk more than 1 team over the last 15 years with his attitude

 

big hit for arod tonite eh??

down 8 or up 8 the boy really can rack up some #s when it doesnt matter

[empirestrikesback26]

http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~hobd8260/BeatDeadHorse.gif

Is that bararo?

[rician blast]

Is that bararo?

 

Empire:

 

1. It's Barbaro...not bararo.

 

2. You ain't funny.

 

3. Thanks in part to Barbaro's injury I hit the exacta, and had the winner to win and place. Despite MY good fortune, I'd gladly give it up if the horse would be ok.

 

4. You're a tool.

[Mr Crunchy]

funny you said that

my daughter loved that horse and was broken up for a few hours till i lied and said the horse would be fine

i had to get the address of the stable and the vets office at penn u so she could send the animal a card and a bag of carrots

compassion or lack there of when dealing with animals

is not a solid character trait but neither is rooting for the yankees for that matter

[SuperManny]

Is that bararo?

 

Nice picture of Pedro though - you wish you could have a pitcher that good. Thank God he didn't go to the Yanks so that I can still like him. Yankees can have Damon.

[26 to 6]

funny you said that

my daughter loved that horse and was broken up for a few hours till i lied and said the horse would be fine

i had to get the address of the stable and the vets office at penn u so she could send the animal a card and a bag of carrots

compassion or lack there of when dealing with animals

is not a solid character trait but neither is rooting for the yankees for that matter

Thats a pretty cheap shot. f*** you.

[KeepTheFaith1229]

Thats a pretty cheap shot. f*** you.

 

Ironic...

[empirestrikesback26]

I guess you could say his 2 RBI single wasn't clutch because it was only in the third. But look at the difference, 2 runs. I still call it clutch, anytime you come through like that it should be regarded as clutch.

[ARod2212]

Bottom 8, down 3, tying run at the plate. Pops up to shortstop.

 

Oritz = clutch.