The Jeter Isn't Clutch Thread

[a700hitter]

You guys always accuse us of having the "rose-colored, pinstripe glasses" on, but maybe its not our bias thats the problem. Maybe the problem here is your Anti-Yankee bias. God forbid you admit that Jeter is a hell of a player and has not failed to do good things in the postseason. Would it hurt that bad?

Jeter is a very solid smart ballplayer. He certainly plays the game the right way. He's just not the icon that Yankee fans and the media have made him out to be. He's had more post-season opportunities than any player in history, so he's done some good things. He's just not that great. People don't make a special trip to see PD take batting practice. They go to see Pujols, Manny, Ortiz, Bonds. They went to games to see Ricky steal bases, Ozzie field, etc. There is nothing outstanding about PD...nothing. He's very good, but not great. Mo is great, and IMO Bernie's career is closer to great than PD.

[MC Hammer]

Riv gave us some facts as well. And those facts clearly show that Jeter gets the job done and does his part.

Would you ever use the words "gets the job done" and "does his part" for a guy who's talked about as one of the greatest post season players of all time? His numbers show that you are correct in using those terms though.

 

You dont have to bat .873 and have 2729832 Postseason home runs to be clutch. Jeter once said "Love is doing the things that dont show up in the box score." Jeter does those little things very well. Thats why he's so good.

Jesus Christ now you're quoting the guy. Maybe you should put down the Kool Aid before you have this discussion.

 

I've seen him produce for us in the postseason for years, and regardless of what stats you throw out there, I know he is a productive clutch performer in the postseason.

If a player produces you'll be able to look at his numbers and say ... "hey, there's his production".

 

Statistics seperate people talking out of their asses and homers(like you) from actual baseball fans.

[Pinstripe_Pride]

I guess winning four rings, being the All-Star Game MVP in 2001, the World Series MVP in 2000, the Rookie of the Year in 1996, an All-Star since 1998, and the captain of the New York Yankees just isn't good enough for good ol' ESoxPN.

 

Oh, and coming from a guy who played parts of six seasons as a reserve outfielder from 1984 to 1989, was on the bench for two World Series wins - with the Twins in 1987, and the A's in 1989, and completed his 148-game career with a .219 batting average and 3 home runs, I doubt he'd know an intangible if it hit him between the eyes.

 

Damn! It's lonely at the top.

[He Hate Me]

again, totally missing the point...its not about E's or the Yanks not winning it all despite their ridiculous payroll. Its about the characterization of a player being clutch when he is clearly not.

 

How you make the leap to Schilling and his foucs is pretty funny, though.

 

... sigh

 

nvm

[See Red]

I guess winning four rings, being the All-Star Game MVP in 2001, the World Series MVP in 2000, the Rookie of the Year in 1996, an All-Star since 1998, and the captain of the New York Yankees just isn't good enough for good ol' ESoxPN.

 

'ESoxPN' is the one who's been sucking his dick for being something he isn't.

 

You lost me when you brought up the fact that he was the All-Star Game MVP in 2001.

[Pinstripe_Pride]

You lost me when you brought up the fact that he was the All-Star Game MVP in 2001.

Ahh my bad, he's had so many clutch years I forget which years he got awards for what. I believe it was 2000, not 2001.

[See Red]

Ahh my bad, he's had so many clutch years I forget which years he got awards for what. I believe it was 2000, not 2001.

 

No, no, no, you may have very well gotten the year right... it's the fact that it's an All-Star game. An, at that time, completely meaningless game.

[ARod2212]

So.. who counts as "the greatest active postseason player" ? Ortiz, with his 3 playoff appearances?

 

Name me someone more deserving than Jeter.

[See Red]

So.. who counts as "the greatest active postseason player" ? Ortiz, with his 3 playoff appearances?

 

Name me someone more deserving than Jeter.

 

Not necessarily, but given the chances he's had and the circumstances, what he did in game's 4 and 5 alone is as impressive as Jeter's entire postseason resumé. Don't mistake the number of opportunities to shine for how bright they've shined when given the chance.

[TheRivernator]

3rd inning clutch? I stopped reading right there.

 

So you cannot be clutch in the 3rd inning? If you drive in the go-ahead run in the 3rd inning and your pitching closes the door from then on out, is that an indictment against him for not being clutch? Seriously, you guys have such a bias against Jeter that you cannot look at things in perspective. Many times, the above hits were his only hits of the game. Basically, what the above shows is that he is not the guy finishing the rallies like your typical "clutch" player, but he is the guy starting them. He is part of nearly every yankee postseason rally, and he makes his hits count when he gets them. I cannot tell you how many of the above hits were the only hits of the game for him. I think it was Dana who said that Jeter was 4 for 20 in games 4-7 in the ALCS, but one of those hits was a go-ahead 2 run double in the 7th inning against pedro which set up the choke of game 5. Everyone likes to take his stats as a whole and say someone is not clutch, but I always thought the definition of clutch was getting the hits when you truly need them. When you are trailing at any time of the game and you need a rally. At the beginning of the game to spark a rally, in the middle of the game to tie things up or go ahead, or at the end of the game when your team is running out of outs. Hence, if you are going to use the term clutch, then you arent using it properly. Jeter may not be as big a postseason horse as he is made out to be, but he is certainly the guy you want up there when the games are on the line and you need a rally starter. So for all you who want to try and find chinks in his armor or want to spit on his accomplishments, take a look at the world series runs and how integral he was in late game comebacks and how he was the man driving the rallies of our 4 world championship teams.....

[TheRivernator]

Your team needs an hit in every AB, and it needs you to field every ball in the field. Therefore, everyone with a hit is clutch. YAY FOR EVERYONE!

 

Whether you like it or not, clutch is pretty much accepted as a combination of hitting w/ RISP and hitting in Close & Late situations. Jeter's career stats in those situations are lower than his career overall stats. You cannot deny that fact.

 

You want to know what I love about stats? They aren't biased. They aren't subject to hero worship and selective memory. They account every walk-off hit/HR just as much as they account for every game ending GIDP with a RISP.

 

No intelligent responses? Funny, we all seem to grasp the concept of clutch as currently defined. You, on the other hand, reject sound analysis because it challenges your hero-worship of a player on your team. Now who's being ignorant?

 

again, his regular season numbers with close and late or RISP or whatever are not the topic being brought up here. It is the postseason numbers that are on trial here.

[jsinger121]

So.. who counts as "the greatest active postseason player" ? Ortiz, with his 3 playoff appearances?

 

Name me someone more deserving than Jeter.

 

Jeter has had a ton of playoff appearances but not alot stands out other than his flip and his homerun against the orioles and dbacks and the homerun against the Orioles should have counted in the first place. Oritz won the Angels series, games 4 and 5 in the ALCS, had a 3 run homerun in the G1 of the WS, had the DP with Suppan sleeping at third. Jeter is a very good player but Ortiz what he did in 1 October should definitely whatever Jeter did because he carried the Red Sox the entire playoffs.

[Mr Crunchy]

So.. who counts as "the greatest active postseason player" ? Ortiz, with his 3 playoff appearances?

 

john smoltz comes to mind here

bernie and posada i'd take for the money before ""the 2001 all star game mvp""

 

jeffrey maier??

jesus christ

another proud legacy for yankee fans to fall back on

didnt rudy make him mayor for the day??

 

and you wonder why the other 250,000,000 americans despise nyc

 

youre not really comparing jeter with ortiz are you?

 

i dont remember ANYONE ever getting ortiz out when it mattered

i'd be willing to bet jetsey was in the top 5 in making game ending outs last year however

[ORS]

So.. who counts as "the greatest active postseason player" ? Ortiz, with his 3 playoff appearances?

 

Name me someone more deserving than Jeter.

The article does. Bernie Wiliams. I guess like most Yankee fans, you don't bother to read the article when you don't like the title and just make assumptions from there.

 

EDIT: Typo.

[ORS]

So you cannot be clutch in the 3rd inning? If you drive in the go-ahead run in the 3rd inning and your pitching closes the door from then on out, is that an indictment against him for not being clutch? Seriously, you guys have such a bias against Jeter that you cannot look at things in perspective. Many times, the above hits were his only hits of the game. Basically, what the above shows is that he is not the guy finishing the rallies like your typical "clutch" player, but he is the guy starting them. He is part of nearly every yankee postseason rally, and he makes his hits count when he gets them. I cannot tell you how many of the above hits were the only hits of the game for him. I think it was Dana who said that Jeter was 4 for 20 in games 4-7 in the ALCS, but one of those hits was a go-ahead 2 run double in the 7th inning against pedro which set up the choke of game 5. Everyone likes to take his stats as a whole and say someone is not clutch, but I always thought the definition of clutch was getting the hits when you truly need them. When you are trailing at any time of the game and you need a rally. At the beginning of the game to spark a rally, in the middle of the game to tie things up or go ahead, or at the end of the game when your team is running out of outs. Hence, if you are going to use the term clutch, then you arent using it properly. Jeter may not be as big a postseason horse as he is made out to be, but he is certainly the guy you want up there when the games are on the line and you need a rally starter. So for all you who want to try and find chinks in his armor or want to spit on his accomplishments, take a look at the world series runs and how integral he was in late game comebacks and how he was the man driving the rallies of our 4 world championship teams.....

He is part of nearly every yankee postseason rally, and he makes his hits count when he gets them.

 

Unless he's hitting HRs, that's ********. Someone has to do something at the plate to bring him home, and he has no control over that.

 

Why is it we are biased in this instead of you? We all admit he's a very good player, but we agree that the media myth about him being clutch is nothing more than him getting a season's worth of chances in the postseason to make memorable plays. Is he a choker? Absolutely not, because his overall numbers in the post season pretty much match his career numbers. That doesn't make him clutch though.

 

again, his regular season numbers with close and late or RISP or whatever are not the topic being brought up here. It is the postseason numbers that are on trial here.

His splits in those categories for his postseason stats are even more unflattering than career numbers, so it is still valid.

 

EDIT: Typo.

[Mr Crunchy]

DONT GET ME WRONG

we'd love to have jetsey here as a shortstop

hes certainly better than alex gonzales....hes a solid ballplayer

hes good for the game,good for the yankees and good for ny

i'd rather see arod out there at bat than derek but neither 1 of them frighten boston fans

 

he also hasnt won s*** without paul oneil and tino and andy petite has he??

 

he does what hes supposed to do,occasionally does the outstanding and we need to thank him for diving into the crowd that nite in the bronx to illustrate how much of a dog nomar became.....

[TheRivernator]

He is part of nearly every yankee postseason rally, and he makes his hits count when he gets them.

 

Unless he's hitting HRs, that's ********. Someone has to do something at the plate to bring him home, and he has no control over that.

EDIT: Typo.

 

You are right, somebody has to come through. But at the same time, sombody has to start the rally in the first place and Jeter always seems to be the one to do it. If you want to see an example of it blowing up, look at last yr. Yankees down 2 in the 9th and Jeter leads off with a single and is promptly doubled up on the ARod choke job. The fact remains, Jeter is the guy who will step up in the postseason and get on base, period. 8th inning, down a run, he'll walk, get HBP, or single for the most part and get on base. Somebody has to drive him in, absolutely, and that is why Bernie and him together have been an amazing combo. And for those of you who want to use Ortiz as a reference, lets not forget that he was pretty much non-existant in 2003 and last yrs postseason (even though his overall stats were good) he was basically a choke artist, going 0 for 3 in the last 2 games when the sox were trailing by a run. I know, small sample size, but he couldnt even get on base to start something. Listen, I'm not advocating for Jeter to be considered the best postseason player of all time (Mantle has that), I am saying that he is the best fire starter in the postseason's recent memory. Nobody has shown the ability to start a rally when their team needs them like he has. Granted, he relies on someone else to drive him in, but therein liesa the question. Is it not clutch to start the rally? I think it is, and when he continually does it even though he may have choked early on in the game, does that make him non-clutch. A 1 for 5 may go into the books, but that 1 might be the single in the 9th where he would come around to score the winning run. Break it down and look before you blindly follow an article created to incite....

[ORS]

You are right, somebody has to come through. But at the same time, sombody has to start the rally in the first place and Jeter always seems to be the one to do it. If you want to see an example of it blowing up, look at last yr. Yankees down 2 in the 9th and Jeter leads off with a single and is promptly doubled up on the ARod choke job. The fact remains, Jeter is the guy who will step up in the postseason and get on base, period. 8th inning, down a run, he'll walk, get HBP, or single for the most part and get on base. Somebody has to drive him in, absolutely, and that is why Bernie and him together have been an amazing combo. And for those of you who want to use Ortiz as a reference, lets not forget that he was pretty much non-existant in 2003 and last yrs postseason (even though his overall stats were good) he was basically a choke artist, going 0 for 3 in the last 2 games when the sox were trailing by a run. I know, small sample size, but he couldnt even get on base to start something. Listen, I'm not advocating for Jeter to be considered the best postseason player of all time (Mantle has that), I am saying that he is the best fire starter in the postseason's recent memory. Nobody has shown the ability to start a rally when their team needs them like he has. Granted, he relies on someone else to drive him in, but therein liesa the question. Is it not clutch to start the rally? I think it is, and when he continually does it even though he may have choked early on in the game, does that make him non-clutch. A 1 for 5 may go into the books, but that 1 might be the single in the 9th where he would come around to score the winning run. Break it down and look before you blindly follow an article created to incite....

Come on man. Do you really think he has some special ability to start a rally? Perhaps it is due to lineup construction. He's alway hit near the top of the order, and the big/good bats have followed him his whole career. Think that may play a little role in his "rally starting ability"? And you tell me to break it down. Funny.

[MC Hammer]

So you cannot be clutch in the 3rd inning?

No.

 

Clutch - a tense critical situation

 

The 3rd inning is never a tense critical situation.

[TheRivernator]

Come on man. Do you really think he has some special ability to start a rally? Perhaps it is due to lineup construction. He's alway hit near the top of the order, and the big/good bats have followed him his whole career. Think that may play a little role in his "rally starting ability"? And you tell me to break it down. Funny.

 

It definitely plays a role. This isnt Jeter putting everyone on his back and saying, I WILL GET YOU TO THE PROMISED LAND ROAR!!!!! This is him being up at the right times and getting on base, which, due to his solid lineup following him, usually results in him scoring clutch runs. You cannot dispute the facts I produced, because they are fact. Hence, I'll continue to believe that in the playoffs, late in a game, there is nobody I'd rather have leading off an inning than him, period. If I could take any hitter in the game and have them leadoff the 9th when my team is down a run, I'd take him. He wont hit the tater, he may not even hit the ball period. But he'll get on base and be a pest....

[MC Hammer]

It definitely plays a role. This isnt Jeter putting everyone on his back and saying, I WILL GET YOU TO THE PROMISED LAND ROAR!!!!! This is him being up at the right times and getting on base, which, due to his solid lineup following him, usually results in him scoring clutch runs. You cannot dispute the facts I produced, because they are fact. Hence, I'll continue to believe that in the playoffs, late in a game, there is nobody I'd rather have leading off an inning than him, period. If I could take any hitter in the game and have them leadoff the 9th when my team is down a run, I'd take him. He wont hit the tater, he may not even hit the ball period. But he'll get on base and be a pest....

Aren't you the one arguing facts in the first place?

[TheRivernator]

No.

 

Clutch - a tense critical situation

 

The 3rd inning is never a tense critical situation.

 

Clutch is defined as...a tight or critical situation in webster's dictionary.

 

If he scores the go ahead run in a tie game, I would consider it a tight situation. Granted, if he scored the game winning run in the 3rd inning, the pitcher was more clutch, but we arent arguing who is more clutch, we are arguing if he is clutch....

[TheRivernator]

Aren't you the one arguing facts in the first place?

 

No, I am arguing that his stats dont explain the whole thing. Kinda like how you guys were explaining how ARod's superior stats last yr didnt stand up to when Ortiz put up his stats (BTW, I agreed with you and thought Ortiz was the MVP).

[MC Hammer]

No, I am arguing that his stats dont explain the whole thing. Kinda like how you guys were explaining how ARod's superior stats last yr didnt stand up to when Ortiz put up his stats (BTW, I agreed with you and thought Ortiz was the MVP).

I don't believe I said anything about Ortiz deserving award for something other than his numbers. I simply thought that he should not be slighted because he doesn't play the field.

[ORS]

It definitely plays a role. This isnt Jeter putting everyone on his back and saying, I WILL GET YOU TO THE PROMISED LAND ROAR!!!!! This is him being up at the right times and getting on base, which, due to his solid lineup following him, usually results in him scoring clutch runs. You cannot dispute the facts I produced, because they are fact. Hence, I'll continue to believe that in the playoffs, late in a game, there is nobody I'd rather have leading off an inning than him, period. If I could take any hitter in the game and have them leadoff the 9th when my team is down a run, I'd take him. He wont hit the tater, he may not even hit the ball period. But he'll get on base and be a pest....

Shocker. The guy's got a career OBP of .380+. I'd take him too, but I'd take him for his stats, not his Jeterian Clutchness.

[TheRivernator]

I don't believe I said anything about Ortiz deserving award for something other than his numbers. I simply thought that he should not be slighted because he doesn't play the field.

 

 

Cmon now. The full out barrage by boston beat writers was about Ortiz' performance in the clutch over ARod's "stat-piling". Don't get a holier than thou attitude and start saying that you didnt buy the hype (I did, Ortiz was more valuable in the clutch)....

[rician blast]

So.. who counts as "the greatest active postseason player" ? Ortiz, with his 3 playoff appearances?

 

Name me someone more deserving than Jeter.

 

Mariano Rivera

[TheRivernator]

Shocker. The guy's got a career OBP of .380+. I'd take him too, but I'd take him for his stats, not his Jeterian Clutchness.

 

So what explains the fact that he just seems to get on base when needed the most. If he averaged .380 OBP, why does it seem that he reaches base and subsequently scores important runs in important games in the postseason more often than not? Why does it seem that if he reaches base one time in a game, it just so happens to be in the 7th or 8th inning of a tight game and he eventually scores the game winning or game tying run? I have posted his triumphs, dispute them.....

[TheRivernator]

Mariano Rivera

 

I love Mo, good choice...

[rician blast]

Clutch is defined as...a tight or critical situation in webster's dictionary.

 

If he scores the go ahead run in a tie game, I would consider it a tight situation. Granted, if he scored the game winning run in the 3rd inning, the pitcher was more clutch, but we arent arguing who is more clutch, we are arguing if he is clutch....

 

What kina definition does Wesbter's have for:

 

on base percentage?

RISP?

LOB?

 

For krist sake riv, its a fukin dictionary and has NOTHING to do with baseball? So Wesbter's definition of clutch means nothing here.

 

Again, the numbers do not lie...Jeter is a ver, very good ballplayer...one we'd like to have in Boston...but he ain't the clutch performer the ball-washing NY media portrays him to be.