Most Overrated Players

[He Hate Me]

Going by what my eyes tell me, and I watch a fair amount of Yankee games as well, I can say i've been astonished by the amount of game-ending, inning-ending, rally-ending at bats Captain Intangibles has had the last 2 years. I don't think I need to see every game to say he's a great all-around player, but is not as clutch as the ball-washing Yankee writers would have us believe.

 

Let's look at another example....in hockey. I have watched virtually every Bruins game for years. Joe Thornton put up nice overall numbers, no question. But "my eyes" told me that when the heat was on, the guy wasn't going to get it done. In the playoffs I never felt I could count on him.

 

What did the numbers say? The numbers said he was a horrible playoff performer in his tenure with the Bruins. Good regular season numbers...the kind of player often referred to in baseball circles as a "number hanger" but not a true clutch performer (at least not with the B's) And this was on some B's teams that were at or near the top of the heap in terms of regular season points.

 

Jeter is a heady player, good baserunner, good situational guy, solid, but not great, defender, very good hitter. Has he been clutch in recent seasons at the plate? By the definition baseball's guru's are using, the answer is no. I'm not sure how watching him ground out or pop out in late innings in tight games, a fact that bears out in the numbers, can be dismissed if one watches more often.

 

It is what it is...he is what he is...but the numbers don't lie.

 

shrug, what can I say. It's easy to find fault in anyone if you have a bias against them to begin with, especially if you watch them more than once. You obviously have an opinion on Jeter so I'll let his play speak for himself. I've had this argument with others before about the over usage of formulas dreamed up by basement geeks, and it's not something I care go through again.

[ORS]

shrug, what can I say. It's easy to find fault in anyone if you have a bias against them to begin with, especially if you watch them more than once. You obviously have an opinion on Jeter so I'll let his play speak for himself. I've had this argument with others before about the over usage of formulas dreamed up by basement geeks, and it's not something I care go through again.

Typical. These formula's aren't dreamed up. They are developed by looking at all the data available and correlating statistical values to performance. The process is scientific, not fantastic. I laugh everytime someone incapable of understanding this process derides the "coolness" of those involved in it. Basement geeks? Give me a break.

 

Besides, it's not like traditional stats show him to be clutch anyway.

 

Career: .314/.375/.471

RISP: .292/.385/.400

C&L (last three years): .249/.352/.392

 

The C&L split was only for the last 3 years because that was the only duration I could find on the sports websites. The data from 1996-2002 is available on ESPN.com, but I didn't feel like manually entering each new year in the url and creating a spreadsheet to figure out his career rates. I doubt they are as low as the rates from the last 3 years, but I also doubt they are higher than his career rates.

 

Derek Jeter is a very good player, but I can understand why he was voted as overrated by his peers. The guy gets Michael Jordan level hype. MJ is arguably the best basketball player ever. Jeter doesn't even make the top 10 for his position IMO.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

you could drop scott hatteberg in the 3 or 4 spot in the yankee lineup in his contract year and he'll get signed with a 5 year 65 mill contract the next season.

 

john

 

That is very true and its something a lot of people don't think about. You could place Willy Mo Pena in the cleanup spot for the Red Sox and he would have a fantastic season (probably not to the extent of Manny).

 

This was the reason I thought Mike Lowell and Coco Crisp would have great seasons because of the protection in the lineup. I must say Mark Loretta has been a suprise...having the protection of David Ortiz should be the best security blanket in the league but...who knows.

[rician blast]

shrug, what can I say. It's easy to find fault in anyone if you have a bias against them to begin with, especially if you watch them more than once. You obviously have an opinion on Jeter so I'll let his play speak for himself. I've had this argument with others before about the over usage of formulas dreamed up by basement geeks, and it's not something I care go through again.

 

you shouldn't care to go through it again, because you are totally missing 90% of my message.

 

He's a very good player, knows the game, plays to win, is a great teammate, solid defensively, very good hitter.

 

The point was he has NOT been a clutch hitter in recent years.

 

Does it make him a lousy player? no.

Does it make him not a great leader? no.

 

I am not arguing those points at all...had he been with the Sox the past 10 years I'd have been thrilled. I have NO bias whatsoever against him.

 

The point is, and many OBJECTIVE Yankee fans will agree, he hasn't come through in the clutch, at the plate, enough to be considered a clutch hitter. I'm not sure how much more clear I can be about it...and I'm not sure how the numbers can be ignored.

[He Hate Me]

Typical. These formula's aren't dreamed up. They are developed by looking at all the data available and correlating statistical values to performance. The process is scientific, not fantastic. I laugh everytime someone incapable of understanding this process derides the "coolness" of those involved in it. Basement geeks? Give me a break.

 

Besides, it's not like traditional stats show him to be clutch anyway.

 

Career: .314/.375/.471

RISP: .292/.385/.400

C&L (last three years): .249/.352/.392

 

The C&L split was only for the last 3 years because that was the only duration I could find on the sports websites. The data from 1996-2002 is available on ESPN.com, but I didn't feel like manually entering each new year in the url and creating a spreadsheet to figure out his career rates. I doubt they are as low as the rates from the last 3 years, but I also doubt they are higher than his career rates.

 

Derek Jeter is a very good player, but I can understand why he was voted as overrated by his peers. The guy gets Michael Jordan level hype. MJ is arguably the best basketball player ever. Jeter doesn't even make the top 10 for his position IMO.

 

You speak of Sabermetrics or whatever it's called as accepted scientific fact. I'll assume your "typical" comment was made because I'm defending Jeter, and thereby putting down the formulas and other stats. Not so, I've railed against these things in other threads. It has absolutely nothing to do with Jeter. I simply feel that too many people are looking at moneyball like it's the gold standard by which championships are won. Given this age of almost fanatical analysis of numbers and stats upon stats upon stats, that's not surprising, but you wonder when it will stop.

 

These stats don't tell you how valuable Craig Counsell has been in the playoffs or how Mark Lemke always seemed to turn it up in the playoffs. Does RISP account for the score? a guy who has a RISP of .400 in games where they're already leading by 5 before the 6th inning while facing the long relief guy can't be as clutch as the dude batting .300 RISP but does it when they're down by a run or two and facing the setup guy.

 

It's exaclty the reason I don't like the numbers game.

[CrespoBlows]

Overrated? No, not at all.

 

Overpaid? Yes.

[MC Hammer]

Arod being on this list makes it a complete joke. He may not be clutch but he is one of the top 5 hitters in the game, and a great fielder. I hate Arod, but even I can't call the guy overrated.

[ORS]

You speak of Sabermetrics or whatever it's called as accepted scientific fact. I'll assume your "typical" comment was made because I'm defending Jeter, and thereby putting down the formulas and other stats. Not so, I've railed against these things in other threads. It has absolutely nothing to do with Jeter. I simply feel that too many people are looking at moneyball like it's the gold standard by which championships are won. Given this age of almost fanatical analysis of numbers and stats upon stats upon stats, that's not surprising, but you wonder when it will stop.

 

These stats don't tell you how valuable Craig Counsell has been in the playoffs or how Mark Lemke always seemed to turn it up in the playoffs. Does RISP account for the score? a guy who has a RISP of .400 in games where they're already leading by 5 before the 6th inning while facing the long relief guy can't be as clutch as the dude batting .300 RISP but does it when they're down by a run or two and facing the setup guy.

 

It's exaclty the reason I don't like the numbers game.

Typical refers to the fact that since you don't like sabermetric analysis you insult those involved in the field. Why else would it be in the same paragraph where I defend/explain the process? But hey, I understand, it's over your head so the only way you walk away feeling good is to put it down.

 

And, no, it isn't a scientific fact. Rate stats are nothing more than probabilites based on previous performance, and runs-based metrics are just a way of trying to show the context free value of a players performance. That doesn't mean the principles of the scientific process cannot be employed. Hypothesis, data, analysis, test, rinse, repeat.

 

No, RISP doesn't account for score, but C&L does (close and late). C&L situations are as follows:

 

-After the 6th inning

-Up by no more than 1

-Down by no more than 2

 

I know, that doesn't account for every situation that could be considered clutch. That said, I trust it more than your or my ability to remember a players performance in each and every "clutch" situation for an entire season. It is entirely more likely that those split stats show a clearer picture than your memory does. You remember the dramatic walk-off homers/hits for a long time, but the anti-climactic outs fade from your mind rather quickly.

[SCM33]

Arod being on this list makes it a complete joke. He may not be clutch but he is one of the top 5 hitters in the game, and a great fielder. I hate Arod, but even I can't call the guy overrated.

 

 

Agreed. If I were going to start a team. I would start it with either Miguel Tejada, or Alex Rodriguez.

 

IMO, the top right handed hitters in the game are:

 

Pujols

Ramirez

Arod

 

I think the top Left handed hitters in the game are:

Ortiz

Ichiro

 

If I were going to start a team I would take AROD of Tejada over Ortiz, because they are both all around players, and Tejada digs in for 162 games a year.

[He Hate Me]

Typical refers to the fact that since you don't like sabermetric analysis you insult those involved in the field. Why else would it be in the same paragraph where I defend/explain the process? But hey, I understand, it's over your head so the only way you walk away feeling good is to put it down.

 

And, no, it isn't a scientific fact. Rate stats are nothing more than probabilites based on previous performance, and runs-based metrics are just a way of trying to show the context free value of a players performance. That doesn't mean the principles of the scientific process cannot be employed. Hypothesis, data, analysis, test, rinse, repeat.

 

No, RISP doesn't account for score, but C&L does (close and late). C&L situations are as follows:

 

-After the 6th inning

-Up by no more than 1

-Down by no more than 2

 

I know, that doesn't account for every situation that could be considered clutch. That said, I trust it more than your or my ability to remember a players performance in each and every "clutch" situation for an entire season. It is entirely more likely that those split stats show a clearer picture than your memory does. You remember the dramatic walk-off homers/hits for a long time, but the anti-climactic outs fade from your mind rather quickly.

 

I don't understand the hostility. We've had this conversation before in other threads and and both of us has stated similar views to the ones we're taking right now.

[He Hate Me]

Overrated? No, not at all.

 

Overpaid? Yes.

 

they're definetely overpaid. All our guys are.

[MC Hammer]

Agreed. If I were going to start a team. I would start it with either Miguel Tejada, or Alex Rodriguez.

 

IMO, the top right handed hitters in the game are:

 

Pujols

Ramirez

Arod

 

I think the top Left handed hitters in the game are:

Ortiz

Ichiro

 

If I were going to start a team I would take AROD of Tejada over Ortiz, because they are both all around players, and Tejada digs in for 162 games a year.

I think Ichiro is very overrated.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

I think Ichiro is very overrated.

I actually agree with you. Ichiro for a leadoff hitter doesnt get on base at THAT high of a clip. He doesnt hit for power.

[rician blast]

Does RISP account for the score? a guy who has a RISP of .400 in games where they're already leading by 5 before the 6th inning while facing the long relief guy can't be as clutch as the dude batting .300 RISP but does it when they're down by a run or two and facing the setup guy.

 

It's exaclty the reason I don't like the numbers game.

 

But there are statistical measures of exactly the "clutch" situations you describe above. A lot was made last year of Oritz's performance from the 7th inning on, in close games, with RISP and it is there that his numbers blew away AFraud's and is the reason why many thought he should win the MVP despite being a DH.

 

Those same numbers have shown Jeter, who is a great ballplayer, doesn't come through in those situations.

 

Ok, let me wrap it up because the conversation has turned away from the intent of the thread. Is Jeter overrated? Its in the eye of the beholder.

 

If a writer calls him the best SS in the league, then the writer is overrating him. If someone claims that they won 4 WS BECAUSE of him then they are overrating him.

 

Since I don't consider him to be clutch in the first place and I choose not to listen to the ball-washing NYC media, I say no he isn't overrated, not by me anyway. He's a very nice player on a team of all-stars, and he generally helps them have a winning team. He is what he is.

[ahhchon]

I actually agree with you. Ichiro for a leadoff hitter doesnt get on base at THAT high of a clip. He doesnt hit for power.

 

ichiro CAN hit for power, but that's not his job, it's to take pitches and get on base. ichiro is a great player, hands down. his obp last season was .350, his lowest since he's been in the states.

 

john

[ORS]

I don't understand the hostility. We've had this conversation before in other threads and and both of us has stated similar views to the ones we're taking right now.

Perhaps you should regard your comments about the sabermetric movement if you don't like my tone. I'm not in on the current research being done, but I understand and believe in the process. Calling this a basement geek thing is incredibly ignorant and very insulting.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

ichiro CAN hit for power, but that's not his job, it's to take pitches and get on base. ichiro is a great player, hands down. his obp last season was .350, his lowest since he's been in the states.

 

john

Its nice that he CAN do it but he doesnt. SCM called him one of the 2 top lefthanded hitters in the game. I'd rather have guys like Hafner, and Dunn over Ichiro. They hit for power, get on base over a 400 clip.

[He Hate Me]

Perhaps you should regard your comments about the sabermetric movement if you don't like my tone. I'm not in on the current research being done, but I understand and believe in the process. Calling this a basement geek thing is incredibly ignorant and very insulting.

 

There are better ways of defending others. It's all good though. I'm not the only one who feels that way about sabermetrics, and you're not the only one who believes in it. So let's just leave it at that.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Its nice that he CAN do it but he doesnt. SCM called him one of the 2 top lefthanded hitters in the game. I'd rather have guys like Hafner, and Dunn over Ichiro. They hit for power, get on base over a 400 clip.

 

I'll take Ichiro because his defense is fantastic where the other two......well yeah

[SCM33]

I think Ichiro is very overrated.

 

 

I think you are ridiculous.

AL Silver Slugger Award (OF)

AL Glove Glove Award (OF)

American League Rookie of the Year

American League Most Valuable Player

AL Glove Glove Award (OF)

AL MVP (Voting Rank: #17)

AL Glove Glove Award (OF)

AL MVP (Voting Rank: #23)

AL Glove Glove Award (OF)

AL MVP (Voting Rank: #7)

AL Glove Glove Award (OF)

 

.332 Career Hitter

.377 Career OBP

.819 Career OPS

5 Time GG RF

Cannon for an arm

190 SB in 5 years (38 per season)

All time leader for hits in a season (262)

1130 career hits in 5 seasons (226 per season, INCREDIBLE)

 

 

You are on f***in crack, the guy is one of the best players in the game, and is going to be a hall of famer when its all said and done when you consider what he did in Japan also. Hands down one of the top ten position players in the game. He completely changes the game. Overrated, what a frigin joke.

[SCM33]

Its nice that he CAN do it but he doesnt. SCM called him one of the 2 top lefthanded hitters in the game. I'd rather have guys like Hafner, and Dunn over Ichiro. They hit for power, get on base over a 400 clip.

 

 

They arent half the player Ichiro is. Not even close.

[Dana Kiecker]

Not to rehash the Jeter conversation... but his numbers in the postseason are worse than the regular season numbers.

Papis numbers on the other hand are better in the postseason

 

So to say " Papi hits clutch during the whole year but Jetes turns it up and hits clutch in the postseason" would be inncorrect.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

They arent half the player Ichiro is. Not even close.

Hmmm I believe you said "left handed HITTERS" not overall game. Lets take a look back:

 

I think the top Left handed hitters in the game are:

Ortiz

Ichiro

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

I'll take Ichiro because his defense is fantastic where the other two......well yeah

read above

[SCM33]

Hmmm I believe you said "left handed HITTERS" not overall game. Lets take a look back:

 

 

 

 

HMMMM I believe I ALSO posted his offensive numbers, which overall are better than most LHH in the game......find one with better all around numbers besides Ortiz. You cant, and wont. Therefore my initial statement was correct regardless.

 

Ortiz? Arguments can be made, very different approaches

Giles? No

Edmonds? No

Giambi? No

Anderson? No

Hafner or Dunn like you suggested? Well all the above players are better than those two. So again No.

 

I guess I made a mistake, because the thread is OVERALL PLAYERS, and I typed overall hitter when in fact you knew exactly what I was suggesting anyway, and replied that Ichiro was overrated when in fact he is not. Numbers wise, hes clearly one of the best combing speed, on base skills, some power (15 HR last season) and an unbelievable ability to make contact.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

HMMMM I believe I ALSO posted his offensive numbers, which overall are better than most LHH in the game......find one with better all around numbers besides Ortiz. You cant, and wont. Therefore my initial statement was correct regardless.

 

Ortiz? Arguments can be made, very different approaches

Giles? No

Edmonds? No

Giambi? No

Anderson? No

Hafner or Dunn like you suggested? Well all the above players are better than those two. So again No.

 

I guess I made a mistake, because the thread is OVERALL PLAYERS, and I typed overall hitter when in fact you knew exactly what I was suggesting anyway, and replied that Ichiro was overrated when in fact he is not. Numbers wise, hes clearly one of the best combing speed, on base skills, some power (15 HR last season) and an unbelievable ability to make contact.

Dunn for one has a higher career OBP AND OPS then Ichiro which are really the only important stats that you posted. So again I'll take someone like Dunn over Ichiro who when you really break him down is a signles hitter who doesnt walk much.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

I guess I made a mistake, because the thread is OVERALL PLAYERS, and I typed overall hitter when in fact you knew exactly what I was suggesting anyway, and replied that Ichiro was overrated when in fact he is not.

No mistake was made at all. ESP when you consider Ortiz doesnt play a position so how could we judge Ortiz's defense? It said hitters so I figured you ment hitters.

[SuperManny]

Dunn has a much higher OBP and OPS than Ichiro as stated above. Ichiro is almost completely dependant on his slap hits and infield singles. His OBP isn't that good and while he is good on D i don't think it makes up for the difference in power between someone like Dunn and Ichiro. Dunn's career OPS is over .900 and over 1.000 this year. He is 26 this season and has 170 HR's and a career .384 OBP. I would take Dunn in a second over Ichiro.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

Dunn has a much higher OBP and OPS than Ichiro as stated above. Ichiro is almost completely dependant on his slap hits and infield singles. His OBP isn't that good and while he is good on D i don't think it makes up for the difference in power between someone like Dunn and Ichiro. Dunn's career OPS is over .900 and over 1.000 this year. He is 26 this season and has 170 HR's and a career .384 OBP. I would take Dunn in a second over Ichiro.

Someone who sees the light. Thank you very much.

[SuperManny]

Someone who sees the light. Thank you very much.

 

I've always been a huge fan of Dunn's and steal him every year in fantasy baseball. Everyone looks at the low BA and dismisses him while not realizing that his OBP is usually about 125-150 points higher than his BA due to the insane amount of walks he gets. Add in the power and hes one of the best hitters in the game. You can't argue with almost a .400 OBP and over .900 OPS for his career while still being just 26 for all of this season. He will post several seasons of 1.000+ OPS and Ichiro could never even dream of that number for a season.