Wily Mo revisited

[MC Hammer]

700 is right, successful teams don't go to extremes on either end of the spectrum. The most efficient roster construction (for big budget teams) is one of premium homegrown talent with FAs to fill where the farm has failed.

Wouldn't resigning Pedro, and Johnny be a bit extreme? He can't stop crying about us not doing that.

[a700hitter]

Are you not the one that wanted to get Abreu and pay his giant salary? Even after complain about Hinske by saying "We need pitching not hitting".

 

I never said we shouldn't sign FAs or make trades, but any time there's a problem you immediately say that we didn't spend enough money, or we didn't trade enough prospects ... even if the problem was caused by someone getting hurt (see: our pitching staff). This FO knows what it's doing, remember it was the first one here in 86 years that was able to get us to the WS.

I complained that we spent too much on Hinske because he's garbage. I also suggested that the Red Sox could have unloaded Abreu in the offseason if they didn't want to pay his full salary. He would have been an expensive stop gap move but our competition is the Yankees and the FO can't keep getting beat to the punch. Whether he would have made the difference is debatable. I don't think he makes the Red Sox a WS winner, but the Yankees are not that good either. He might have been the differnce maker in the division. Also, for a one-year investment of $17 million, he would been part of a very formidable 3,4, and 5 with Manny and Ortiz. $!7 million is a big contract, but not a big, long term contract, and it would have been a bargain compared to the $21 million spent for one year of Renteria.

[MC Hammer]

I complained that we spent too much on Hinske because he's garbage. I also suggested that the Red Sox could have unloaded Abreu in the offseason if they didn't want to pay his full salary. He would have been an expensive stop gap move but our competition is the Yankees and the FO can't keep getting beat to the punch. Whether he would have made the difference is debatable. I don't think he makes the Red Sox a WS winner, but the Yankees are not that good either. He might have been the differnce maker in the division. Also, for a one-year investment of $17 million, he would been part of a very formidable 3,4, and 5 with Manny and Ortiz. $!7 million is a big contract, but not a big, long term contract, and it would have been a bargain compared to the $21 million spent for one year of Renteria.

No team would have wanted to pay for Abreu, but the Yankees. Do you want to trade him there? Or do you expect us to trade him and still pay the vast majority of his money?

 

You constantly talk about how we don't have enough pitching, but claim that Bobby Abreu would win us this division. Can you try getting through a whole day without contradicting yourself 10 times?

[a700hitter]

No team would have wanted to pay for Abreu, but the Yankees. Do you want to trade him there? Or do you expect us to trade him and still pay the vast majority of his money?

 

You constantly talk about how we don't have enough pitching, but claim that Bobby Abreu would win us this division. Can you try getting through a whole day without contradicting yourself 10 times?

We don't have enough pitching, but the yankees aren't exactly swimming in it either, especially with Moose on the shelf. If the Red Sox got him and wanted to pare payroll they might have had to eat some of his salary, not most of it. We didn't even have to eat most of Rent a Wreck's salary. We ate $11 million of $30 million and Abreu is much better than Renteria. You need to think a little more creatively. Frankly, after watching him with the Yankees, I would have kept him for the 1 year and let him play RF. The heart of the order would have become as potent as the 2003-2005 teams and he is a good fielder with good speed on the bases. I have not contradicted myself one bit on Abreu. My position is that we should have made the move. This is not inconsistent with the position that we need pitching. We need both.

[ORS]

Wouldn't resigning Pedro, and Johnny be a bit extreme? He can't stop crying about us not doing that.

The Pedro and Damon decisions need to be judged after their contracts have run to completion, IMO. However, right now those two decisions are looking very bad.

 

I don't think it's extreme considering they weren't able to sufficiently replace them with the moves they've made. Would it be nice if 700 moved on? Sure, but his angst isn't exactly misplaced right now.

[a700hitter]

The Pedro and Damon decisions need to be judged after their contracts have run to completion, IMO. However, right now those two decisions are looking very bad.

 

I don't think it's extreme considering they weren't able to sufficiently replace them with the moves they've made. Would it be nice if 700 moved on? Sure, but his angst isn't exactly misplaced right now.

I don't think I have even used either of their names this evening. I get blamed for beating the dead horse, but I am not the one that keeps dragging the dead horse out of the barn.

[ORS]

I don't think I have even used either of their names this evening. I get blamed for beating the dead horse, but I am not the one that keeps dragging the dead horse out of the barn.

Be fair now, 700. The frequency of you bringing those two up is tantamount to having the dead horse stuffed and placed in the middle of the living room.

[a700hitter]

Be fair now, 700. The frequency of you bringing those two up is tantamount to having the dead horse stuffed and placed in the middle of the living room.

I wasn't sure if my opinion about them was clear . I have made a special effort the last couple of days to resist the temptation of bringing them up. Tonight I am going a step further and I am making an effort to not engage anyone like MC who tries to bait me on the point.

[Teddyballgame10]

I never wanted Abrue but this is what im thinking now. With Beckette pitching better, schilling being well schilling and wells pitching very well, abreu could have helped the offence and kept us in the race untill wakefeild and crew get back. I defently wouldnt have wanted him next year but I think this year he may have been worth it, if we didnt have to give up lester, hasnen or perodia.

[MC Hammer]

I never wanted Abrue but this is what im thinking now. With Beckette pitching better, schilling being well schilling and wells pitching very well, abreu could have helped the offence and kept us in the race untill wakefeild and crew get back. I defently wouldnt have wanted him next year but I think this year he may have been worth it, if we didnt have to give up lester, hasnen or perodia.

There's no way we would have had a chance at getting him unless we gave up all 3, or at least 2.

[Teddyballgame10]

The yankees didnt even need to give up Hughes get him. Maybe we could have gotten a deal.

[jsinger121]

The yankees didnt even need to give up Hughes get him. Maybe we could have gotten a deal.

 

The yankees didn't need to give up Hughes because they could just assume all of Abreu's money.

[rician blast]

The yankees didn't need to give up Hughes because they could just assume all of Abreu's money.

 

that was the key to the deal...i read somewhere that there were other teams pursuing Abreu as part of a package but all deals fell apart once the Yankees agreed to eat Abreau's salary. no could...or would...match that facet of the deal.

[riverside sluggers]

I never wanted Abrue but this is what im thinking now. With Beckette pitching better, schilling being well schilling and wells pitching very well, abreu could have helped the offence and kept us in the race untill wakefeild and crew get back. I defently wouldnt have wanted him next year but I think this year he may have been worth it, if we didnt have to give up lester, hasnen or perodia.

 

Maybe Im beating a dead horse here, so be it... taxes included the Sox would end up pyaing $27 million for the services of Abreu, thus taking away sources that can be better used to beef up the pitching staff

[rician blast]

Maybe Im beating a dead horse here, so be it... taxes included the Sox would end up pyaing $27 million for the services of Abreu, thus taking away sources that can be better used to beef up the pitching staff

 

River:

 

no dead horse here...this is a point that needs to be reinforced as it reminds all that the Sox are operating in a different manner than the Yanks...and in a more similar manner to most of MLB's teams.

[Mr Crunchy]

we're also the 1st team with a 120M+ payroll to surrender with a month left in the season

f***ed up s*** has happened

really bizzare

considering 30days ago we were making playoff plans

[Teddyballgame10]

River:

 

no dead horse here...this is a point that needs to be reinforced as it reminds all that the Sox are operating in a different manner than the Yanks...and in a more similar manner to most of MLB's teams.

 

True. Vaild Point

[ksushi]

If it means being in on Zito or Matsuzaka this offseason, I would give up on Abreu too and if that means winning 85 games and finishing out of the playoffs that would actually be fine with me so long as we get Zito or Matsuzaka. They better be able to walk the walk this offseason after letting this season go.

[Mr Crunchy]

the price of poker goes up after october

instead of just playoff teams bidding and losing teams selling

it becomes a cluster f*** of every big market team looking for pitching

07 just maybe a continuation of the 2nd half of 06 i fear

[rician blast]

07 just maybe a continuation of the 2nd half of 06 i fear

 

fkn 'A' right.

 

that just might be the case

[Mr Crunchy]

jimma

have a blessed labor day weekend

as do all you working men and women out there

if youre not working

GET A JOB

me and your parents are tired of carrying the load

and

dont give me this student ******** either,work permits are available at 14,12 if you live in maine

[rician blast]

the price of poker

 

poker?

 

I hardly even know her.

[jacksonianmarch]

the price of poker goes up after october

instead of just playoff teams bidding and losing teams selling

it becomes a cluster f*** of every big market team looking for pitching

07 just maybe a continuation of the 2nd half of 06 i fear

 

If they dont pony up the greenbacks, the pitching situation will not improve. Pitching is available. Schmidt would fit nicely behind Schilling and in front of Beckett. That would make Wake the 4 and would ease the need to move Paps into the rotation. I have no expectations for Lester, he is out of the plans in my opinion, until he successfully completes treatment. That leaves an open #5. Guys like Lidle will be available, get one of them. If you dont want to get Schmidt or Zito or any front of the rotation starters, then paps has to be moved to the rotation and a guy like Cordero will have to be obtained to close games. If Delcarmen or Hansen ascend to closer at the beginning of next yr, then wait until 08. The pen and rotation need fixing, it is on theo to do it right this time.

[a700hitter]

If they dont pony up the greenbacks, the pitching situation will not improve. Pitching is available. Schmidt would fit nicely behind Schilling and in front of Beckett. That would make Wake the 4 and would ease the need to move Paps into the rotation. I have no expectations for Lester, he is out of the plans in my opinion, until he successfully completes treatment. That leaves an open #5. Guys like Lidle will be available, get one of them. If you dont want to get Schmidt or Zito or any front of the rotation starters, then paps has to be moved to the rotation and a guy like Cordero will have to be obtained to close games. If Delcarmen or Hansen ascend to closer at the beginning of next yr, then wait until 08. The pen and rotation need fixing, it is on theo to do it right this time.

I am also sure that the likes of Jon Lieber could be obtained in a salary dump for a low level prospect.

[Mr Crunchy]

i dont want barry zito

he cant beat ny so whats the point of getting him

 

this team and this front office has no clue as to where theyre going next i fear

[jacksonianmarch]

i dont want barry zito

he cant beat ny so whats the point of getting him

 

this team and this front office has no clue as to where theyre going next i fear

 

agreed. There will be some power pitching available, and if they whiff on them again with that patented line of "being paid over market value" then there should be a revolt. This sox team as is is built for making the yankees the champs of the division this yr and next.

[Mr Crunchy]

of the nl guys

only 3 really get me excited as of today

schmidt oswald and smoltz with dontrelle willis making the list too

there are others who can give you 200 innings,jon leiber as someone said wouldnt be a bad addition but hes getting what?? 8M per??

outrageous to pay a4th- 5th guy that kind of coin but it is what it is

[seabeachfred]

Seems I'm one of the few posters here and on other Red Sox boards who would like Barry Zito, so apparently you guys know more about that guy than I do. I do know more about Jason Schmidt than the rest of you, though, since I live in California and have seen him pitch against the Dodgers. This guy is a real horse and I think he should be first on the Red Sox wish list this coming free agent season. BTW Crunch, you don't seem to have much use for the unemployed. I hope that doesn't translate into retireees, which I am. Good win last night for us.

[Mr Crunchy]

i dont follow ya as far as the unemployed go fred

[Cocos Disciples]

Seems I'm one of the few posters here and on other Red Sox boards who would like Barry Zito, so apparently you guys know more about that guy than I do. I do know more about Jason Schmidt than the rest of you, though, since I live in California and have seen him pitch against the Dodgers. This guy is a real horse and I think he should be first on the Red Sox wish list this coming free agent season. BTW Crunch, you don't seem to have much use for the unemployed. I hope that doesn't translate into retireees, which I am. Good win last night for us.

 

Barry Zito has never had a season where he pitched less than 210 innings, exception 2000, when he made 14 starts.

 

Just once has he had an ERA over 4, in 2004. That bloated his career ERA to a great 3.54. His record is 101-62. He knows how to win.

 

He has arguably the best curve in the game.

 

He will be 29 next year.

 

He won the 2002 Cy Young.

 

His career Opponent's Average is .232

 

All in all, if given to me, I would take him. Matsuzaka is unproven in the big leagues, and who knows about that "gyroball". If they were the same price in total, I would take Barry Zito. If Zito is more expensive,maybe I will change my mind.

 

As for against the Yankees, he has pitched 14 1/3 innings. Maybe he sucks, maybe it is a small sample size. He usually has a bad April, this year's start vs them was in April. The other time, he pitched VERY well:

 

6 innings, 5 hits, 1 ER, 4 BB, 4 K, 10 GB, 4 FB

 

He pitched again vs the Yankees, and was mediocre.

 

7 innings, 4 hits, 5 ER, 7 BB, 4 K.

 

One good, one mediocre,leaning towards bad, one BAD. You never know. The Yankees do not own Zito though.