Arroyo Traded to Reds

[a700hitter]

Your 100% right. Bronson was taken advantage of and that is his fault and his fault only. He thought that if he took the discount they wouldnt dump him and they did anyway. It was a gamble and now hes getting paid that "discount" in Cincy. I dont even blame the sox for doing this. My beef is with those "deluded, biased fans" who only see it one way. It simply doesnt work that way.

So, how are we supposed to see it? Are we supposed to feel sorry for Bronson because he made a poor business decision or are we supposed to be mad at the FO for taking advantage of him? You still are not making any sense. How is a fan supposed to view this other than whether or not it improves the team?

[riverside sluggers]

Your missing the point. This isnt about the Red Sox not giving Damon the big contract. I dont care about that. The point is that Red Sox fans were killing Damon for going to the highest bidder. Then you have Bronson Arroyo who took a discount too stay and he ended up getting traded regardless.

 

Actually I was calling him a traitor because he went to the Yankees, not because he went to where there was more $$$

[Beckett95]

http://www.daytondailynews.com/search/content/sports/reds/daily/0224redsweb.html

 

interesting article on boston dirt dogs on Pena

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

Actually I was calling him a traitor because he went to the Yankees, not because he went to where there was more $$$

and the Yankees turned out to be the hightest bidder. It was a business decision weather you like it or not.

[riverside sluggers]

yes I kind of realize that... but you cant tell me how I should think. Yankees. Period. That is why we are calling him a traitor. Even if it was the lowest offer, Id still boo at him

 

If he signed with say the Orioles for 5 years/$60 million, there would be a standing ovation for him. With Yankees for less money, there wont be close to a standing ovation

[elsrbueno]

Sounds like the OF version of Alfonso Soriano.

 

In all fairness, Alfonso put up BETTER numbers at age 24 than Wily Mo.

 

WMP: .259/.316/.527

AGS: .300/.332/.547

 

Of course, Alfonso's 23 YO season, he was strikingly similar to Wily Mo at 24:

 

.268/.304/.432

 

Alfonso was playing in a tougher park for hitters at the time, too.

 

See Park factors (data from Here)

 

Team R H 2B HR BB SO

Cincinnati 1.02 1.00 1.04 1.16 0.96 1.02

New York 1.00 1.02 0.88 1.06 0.94 1.02

 

As much as I hate to say this, Wily Mo hasn't even earned comparisons to Alfonso Soriano yet.

[MANNYHOF24]

ino its freaking amazing how far he can hit the ball. The problem is that he is looking for a HR every AB.

 

Ortiz's 2001 stats(MIN, 25)--.234 avg--.475 slug--.324 obp--18 HR--48 RBI--70 K--302 AB

Ortiz's 2002 stats(MIN, 26)--.270 avg--.500 slug--.338 obp--20 HR--75 RBI--88 K--412 AB

Ortiz's 2003 stats(BOS, 27)--.288 avg--.592 slug--.369 obp--31 HR--101 RBI--82 K--448 AB

and he has gotten better each year since then

 

Pena's 2004 stats(CIN, 22)--.259 avg--.527 slug--.316 obp--26 HR--66 RBI--108 K--336 AB

Pena's 2005 stats(CIN, 23)--.254 avg--.495 slug--.304 obp--19 HR--51 RBI--116 K--311 AB

Pena's 2006 stats(BOS, 24)--???????????

 

the biggest problem I see with Pena is plate discipline. Last year he had 116 K's to 20 BB, which is horrendous. Hopefully papa jack can work with him and turn him into an all-star

 

Yes, but where is he going to get ab's in this lineup. With Manny Coco and Nixon, he will likely only start agianst lefties, and Spell Manny once in a while. So I see 2007 as his potential breakout year, not 2006.

[elsrbueno]

My apologies on that latest post-- I miscalculated Pena's age.

 

As a matter of fact, at age 23, Wily Mo and Alfonso were almost the same player offensively. The park still favors Pena and Soriano is faster, so unless Pena develops plate discipline he's destined to be a slow version of Alfonso Soriano.

[See Red]

and the Yankees turned out to be the hightest bidder. It was a business decision weather you like it or not.

 

Want to know the difference?

 

"playing baseball is not about the money, it is about the fans and playing for the love of the game, and more importantly, its about tonight, red sox-yankees, i live in boston, and i never want to leave, i want to play here the rest of my life, nothin could change that decision" - Johnny Damon

[mtbykr]

So, how are we supposed to see it? Are we supposed to feel sorry for Bronson because he made a poor business decision or are we supposed to be mad at the FO for taking advantage of him? You still are not making any sense. How is a fan supposed to view this other than whether or not it improves the team?

 

 

I wonder if you were saying it was a poor business decision when he took that discount to remain with the sox? I look at it like this: Bronson is a guy who loved boston and loved playing here. He could sack up and pitch in big games too. When contract time came he went to Theo (even though his agent was against it) and said he would take less to stay here. Theo shook his hand and said that they have no plans on trading him. Now he's gone and the season hasn't even started yet. I understand about taking a deal to make the team better, but it looks like the sox played him---take a discount and become a more valuable trading piece! If Bronson had an idea that he might get traded, he probably would have gone into FA and been able to pick a spot instead of getting stuck in cincy!

 

I think the most interesting part is what this does to Trot. I love trot and hope he stays, but he will have to put together a great year to remain here!

[riverside sluggers]

When contract time came he went to Theo (even though his agent was against it) and said he would take less to stay here. Theo shook his hand and said that they have no plans on trading him.

 

He resigned in mid-January, 2 weeks prior to Theo coming back on board

[MC Hammer]

When contract time came he went to Theo (even though his agent was against it) and said he would take less to stay here. Theo shook his hand and said that they have no plans on trading him.

s*** I didn't know you worked for the Red Sox Front Office ... can you get me tickets?

[The Monster is my Mom]

He resigned in mid-January, 2 weeks prior to Theo coming back on board

 

Come on now, you don't really believe that Theo was ever gone do you??

[a700hitter]

Theo shook his hand and said that they have no plans on trading him. Now he's gone and the season hasn't even started yet. I understand about taking a deal to make the team better, but it looks like the sox played him---take a discount and become a more valuable trading piece!

First of all, Theo was not involved. Jed Hoyer told him that there was nothing in the works, and that was not a lie. They did not tell him that they would not trade him. Am I supposed to feel sorry for Bronson who has a multi-year, multi-million $ contract? Bad deal by Bronson. Not my business. Why should a fan care. Do we feel bad for Papi that he is grossly underpaid?

I think the most interesting part is what this does to Trot. I love trot and hope he stays, but he will have to put together a great year to remain here!

It is a good thing to light a fire under Trot. He is highly motivated anyway. The competition will help push his performance to a higher level.

[mtbykr]

s*** I didn't know you worked for the Red Sox Front Office ... can you get me tickets?

 

 

Just relaying reports that i read smart guy!

[MC Hammer]

Just relaying reports that i read smart guy!

I think you're the smart guy. You're the one that thought Theo was the one that made his deal.

[mtbykr]

I think you're the smart guy. You're the one that thought Theo was the one that made his deal.

 

 

Let's try and keep the facts strait: i said i was just posting the reports that i had read about the deal! Now if you are asking, do i think theo was involved in the deal--then my answer is yes! Theo even admits after coming back on being involved in the beckett deal, so i don't doubt that he was involved in this deal!

[riverside sluggers]

Lets be real here, Arroyo wouldve been mainly used out of the bullpen this year doing mop-up duties. Also with Papelbon & Lester approaching the rotation for 2007, there wasnt a guarantee in my eyes that Bronson wouldve been in the rotation any time soon... In Cincinatti he'll get more starts, the National League could make him a better pitcher

 

--------------------------

EDIT: Theo on Bronson Arroyo and his handsake agreement. And why they got Wily

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/

[ksushi]

What they did to bronson was wrong, but way right for the Red Sox. Great deal, would have happened any way you look at it.

[User Name]

I also feel bad for ABronson, he was one of my favorites. I don't really know a hell of a lot about Willy Mo, so I'm not going to judge him quite yet.

[CrespoBlows]

Sounds like the OF version of Alfonso Soriano.

 

Excellent comparsion. I was trying to think of someone, but this fits.

[CrespoBlows]

The definition of fandom is bias. I'm biased towards my team, sue me. I reserve the right to declare Damon a traitor, not for leaving for more money, but for going to the Yankees. Maybe it was unfair of us to trade Arroyo after he took a discount (although realistically, how much more could he have really gotten?).

 

Baseball's a business, sure. But if Steve Jobs were to quit Apple and sign with Microsoft, wouldn't a lot of people be upset or at the very least confused?

 

Yes, you're correct. If you want to say your team is the best, then by all means you're entitled to do so.

 

You do reserve the right to call Damon a traitor, but that pendelum swings both ways. If your team says they are not going to trade you and they kick your ass out the door, that's breaking one's word as well.

 

But, I'm a little confused, are you saying the Red Sox were wrong in trading Arroyo? As far as I know right now, the Red Sox have done nothing wrong. Arroyo, just signed for less than the average pitcher would have received. That doesn't guarantee him protection.

[He Hate Me]

Not really biased or anything. I'vehad pena on my fantasy squad for 2004 and 2005. His power numbers come from a hot streak mainly, and then he goes back to striking out twice a game. I think he had like 10 HRs in 6 weeks or something last year. and then hit 9 hrs the rest of the year.

 

I didn't really think that highly of Brandon either, so this is a typical "my garbage" for your "garbage" trade. maybe if the Sox got someone to shorten up Willy's swing somewhat. You dont ned to hit it that hard to get a hit when you're a righty in Fenway. Even then though, his atrocious lack of plate discipline will probably do him in.

[CrespoBlows]

Not really biased or anything. I'vehad pena on my fantasy squad for 2004 and 2005. His power numbers come from a hot streak mainly, and then he goes back to striking out twice a game. I think he had like 10 HRs in 6 weeks or something last year. and then hit 9 hrs the rest of the year.

 

I didn't really think that highly of Brandon either, so this is a typical "my garbage" for your "garbage" trade. maybe if the Sox got someone to shorten up Willy's swing somewhat. You dont ned to hit it that hard to get a hit when you're a righty in Fenway. Even then though, his atrocious lack of plate discipline will probably do him in.

 

He averages a HR every 16.2 AB's. That hardly sounds like garbage.

 

Pena is still a young guy, who has tremendous power potential. I think it's well worth the risk, and probably a massive steal off the Reds.

 

In a entirely unrelated subject, do you think Robinson Cano will improve on his '05 stats this year?

[Soxfan1]

I am paticulary mad at this deal. Arroyo signed for a hometown discount and now is turned away. I think as he grows older he will become a better pitcher. Watch him become Jeff Bagwell all over again. However Pena was a good return.

[MC Hammer]

In a entirely unrelated subject, do you think Robinson Cano will improve on his '05 stats this year?

He's gonna have to stand on his head just to match last years numbers. I doubt Yankee fans are worried about his bat though. I'd be concerned with his fielding getting better.

[CrespoBlows]

I am paticulary mad at this deal. Arroyo signed for a hometown discount and now is turned away. I think as he grows older he will become a better pitcher. Watch him become Jeff Bagwell all over again. However Pena was a good return.

 

What?

 

Bronson Arroyo is 29 years old. How much better do you expect him to be?

[MC Hammer]

What?

 

Bronson Arroyo is 29 years old. How much better do you expect him to be?

Really. He's 29 and he still can't locate his fastball consistantly ... he's only going to go downhill from here.

[CrespoBlows]

He's gonna have to stand on his head just to match last years numbers. I doubt Yankee fans are worried about his bat though. I'd be concerned with his fielding getting better.

 

I was going to try to reveal that his statement was biased.

 

If he wants to talk about a glaring lack of plate discipline, then Cano is subject A.

 

16 walks in 522 AB's. That's atrocious. Even compared to Pena's, 22 in 311 AB's.

[MC Hammer]

I was going to try to reveal that his statement was biased.

 

If he wants to talk about a glaring lack of plate discipline, then Cano is subject A.

 

16 walks in 522 AB's. That's atrocious. Even compared to Pena's, 22 in 311 AB's.

Damnit. My bad. I always love seeing Yankee fans try to back track.