So Who Wins the East?

[TheMeanWalrus]

Last year he didn't play well in the playoffs, period.

 

 

 

Thats putting it nicely, especially considering he grounded into that 5-4-3 double play to effectively end the Yanks season. But at least he didn't have to postpone his interview with Tiger Beat magazine and his Image Consultant were very pleased with his Revlon endorsement

[example1]

sometimes I dont kow if the people who are arguing Boston v New York really mean it or its because of they keep reading how much of a rivalry it is. Not pointing any folks out, I just get that strange feeling sometimes.

 

It is hard to talk about the rivalry. It is something people just feel, and if they try to describe it they sound insane (myself included, in my most candid moments).

 

Anyway, I think the Yanks and Boston rotations stack up well against each other with their strengths and weaknesses. I think the Sox own the edge in middle relief but the Yanks own the edge in the 9th. The Yanks middle is suck ass, and frankly until Foulke proves he's over his brain fart from last year, I doubt anyone wants to see their team turn the ball over to a young guy, regardless of how promising he may be.

 

I pretty much agree with this assessment. However, I don't think the sox success this season depends on Foulke. If he is there then I think they will be a VERY good team.

If not then they will still be better in end games than they were last year. I really think Hansen could be a very effective closer, Timlin has been effective enough to be a 2nd or 3rd option on the team. This disregards the potential that Papelbon could have as a closer, though I think that Hansen may have to fail for that to be his role. And that would only be after Foulke has fallen and if Hansen does well in PAW.

 

I would be fine with Papelbon closing, or Hansen closing. The next generation's approximation of Mariano Rivera is out there somewhere.

 

As for the Offense, I think its pretty obvious the Yanks own an edge, just varies according to whether one is a Yank fan or not =P. As long as the Sox have Manny protecting Ortiz, though, I dont see why they cant combine for 80 HR, 230 RBI and 200 Runs scored.

 

In theory the Yankees own an edge. The sox have outscored them the past 3 seasons, and each year we were at this stage (Jan/Feb) talking about how overpowering the Yankees offense is. I imagine if the Yankees played all of their games in Fenway they would put up similar numbers, but the Sox have just scored so many runs the past few years and it revolves around guys that are still there: Manny, Papi, Varitek, Trot. Key pieces have been removed, but I think the sox came VERY CLOSE to replacing the aggrigate production offensively, and I think they made tremendous strides defensively. Damon seemed slow to me at the end of his time in Boston. Very good, but slow. Gonzalez's success will be based almostly exclusively on his defense. If he plays nearly flawless defense at SS (like Cabrera largely did when he was with BOS) or makes lots of unexpected plays, then the sox will have a much better defensive spark than they did at any point last year. They never had that last year. damon was always somewhat hurt, renteria was terrible, Manny was manny.

 

Loretta takes pride in his 2nd baseman-ship. In the 2005 BP he was called the league's best secondbaseman. Not a great season last year, but he could easily be better than Cano. If Lowell comes back to form they will have a great lineup.

 

I am hopeful that the Sox pitching staff will be considerably better than the Yankees. An injury to RJ or Mussina could throw everything off for them. The sox have 7 SP's (currently) and two guys who would love to get a shot at making the rotation in Papelbon and Lester. I truly believe the sox are much better prepared to deal with the contingencies that a season can throw at them, except for 4th OF, even though Dustan Mohr is pretty good.

 

All in all it should be a pretty good season and the sox and yanks and jays should play a number of good games.

 

I look forward to watching Yankee games on the baseball package cause now I can actually tolerate watching the Jays, whom they play like 18 times or something.

[Manny Goes Boom]

Pure comedy...this WHOLE thread.

 

Fights on Feburary 2nd. LMAO.

 

Anyway, this is 15 pages of speculation.

 

"I have a FEELIING that Curt won't be what everyone says he will be..."

 

(I'll throw my own speculation in )

 

RJ has no cartlitage (thats a fact, he had like none his last year here in AZ) in his knee, and he is injury prone and old (another fact ).

 

Look unless we have a DeLorean that goes into the future and we can see what will happen, nobody knows.

 

I mean hell, Curt and Randy could both win 30 games and share the Cy Young (LMAO, the reason they split up...shared glory ) or they could both have possible career ending (and OBVIOUSLY season ending injuries and the Yanks and Sox could both BLOW ass and neither one make the playoffs.

 

But anyway, this all sounds too familar (my opinions here, again speculation but I wanna join in) Yanks will have a great offense, pitching is supposed to be good. We will have to wait and see, but like stated above, the Yanks offense seems more of a sure bet (if there ever was such a thing) than the pitching.

 

Oh, and even though he left us, JD is still a top 5 or even top 3 leadoff hitter. Just because he's a Yankee doesn't mean he all of a sudden blows. Just last year we were all calling him the best leadoff hitter in the game, now hes not? Granted, 3 years down the road he doesnt look like he will be, but thats all in the air and how he takes care of himself, and how he handles the NY experience.

 

But as for our lineup, as long as the big two keep on truckin' I see us having little problems offensively. "Manny and Ortiz may be good but not as good as they've been" (not a direct quote but its basically what they said) How the hell does anyone know that? And what do you have to prove that they WONT be?

 

And along those lines, Rivernator said COUNTLESS times that Schilling was healthy for a stretch through last year...how is it that you know? Are you Curt Schilling? Are you his wife...are you his ankle...how the hell do you know that? You DONT.

 

 

Since this thread is huge as f*** and I missed the WHOLE thing until now I wanna adress the things that bugged me.

 

In 2001, the Diamondbacks were built to win. They OWNED the Yankees, BK Kim's inability to pitch coupled with Brenley's being to loyal blew the two games in NY. Game one Mussina got jackstomped, same with Petitte in game 2 (I remember a HILARIOUS picture in the papers here, with Pettite leaving the mound with his head in his glove, ). Oh, and to game 7, Luck...LMFAO.

 

Grace started the whole thing with a walk (luck...a pitcher who couldn't find the zone...luck huh...). Delucci (I THINK) pinch ran for him...(LMAO sounds familar). Then Jay Bell singled (Luck seems to happen alot in Arizona...how come I'm not a millionaire then?), and then came Tony Womack. He DOUBLED down the right field line, HARD. One run scored, and that tied it. Womack celebrates and kisses to the sky to honor his father. Another walk, to Sanders I think, (gosh its been awhile), theres that luck again...and Gonzo came up. Hits the ball which leads to Greg Schulte's EPIC call (at least for people in AZ) "...a little blooper to center...BASE HIT!!! Diamondbacks win! They've done it...their the World Champions!!!" Anyway...if that ALL is luck then I'm Donald Trump. Sry had to get that off my chest.

 

Umm, I think thats all. Gosh its gonna be great, I can feel it already.

[riverside sluggers]

May 1 at Fenway.

 

I was doing the figuring in my head and that would be the 26 game of the season, if Boston's and NY's current said rotations should be on a nice routine basis. We would see these cool matchups

 

May 1- Schilling vs RJ (Im hoping for this because it'll be about damn time)- pitcher's duel i could see, not sure who would come out on top

May 2- Beckett vs Mussina

[Cityofchampions33]

I would love to match up a healthy Johnson vs. a healthy Schilling at eitehr park/staudium. Even if we lose it should be quite a game that re-difnes the rivalry.

[riverside sluggers]

another sweet matchup of former teammates that just phased by me, is currently set to be the home opening game which is against the Blue Jays of Beckett vs Burnett

[He Hate Me]

It is hard to talk about the rivalry. It is something people just feel, and if they try to describe it they sound insane (myself included, in my most candid moments).

 

Yeah, it just sounded like some of the comments was almost forced. I've had many discussions with long time Red Sox fans, and it was always give and take. The young ones though :dunno: I'm sure Sox fans feel the same way with people who jumped on the Yankee bandwagon after '96.

 

I am hopeful that the Sox pitching staff will be considerably better than the Yankees. An injury to RJ or Mussina could throw everything off for them. The sox have 7 SP's (currently) and two guys who would love to get a shot at making the rotation in Papelbon and Lester. I truly believe the sox are much better prepared to deal with the contingencies that a season can throw at them, except for 4th OF, even though Dustan Mohr is pretty good.

 

I disagree about an injury to RJ or Mussina. We had that last year with injuries to Wright, Pavano, and then Wang, but we still finished 1st. I dont think an injury will throw off everything.

 

 

All in all it should be a pretty good season and the sox and yanks and jays should play a number of good games.

 

I look forward to watching Yankee games on the baseball package cause now I can actually tolerate watching the Jays, whom they play like 18 times or something.

 

How many times do the Sox play the Jays? I had aSox friend who swore to kill Frank Catalanato XD

[Mr Crunchy]

pavano spent 4 months on the dl because of tendonitis?

generally a shot of b-12 or cortizone can get you on the field unless the tendonitis is in your scrotum..

 

i loved pavano and thought he was the stud to turn the yanks into champs again.

man he failed so miserably i doubt he can come back and be the man.

[ORS]

I disagree about an injury to RJ or Mussina. We had that last year with injuries to Wright, Pavano, and then Wang, but we still finished 1st. I dont think an injury will throw off everything.

I agree 100% with you there. The Yankees have enough depth at SP (RJ, Moose, Pavano, Wang, Wright, Small, Chacon) to take a hit and still be competitive. Whoever steps into the rotation from the 'pen isn't going to have to pitch 7 shutout innings to keep them in the game because that lineup will provide some run support. I mean, look a the Sox last year. They lost their ace and closer to injury and still won 95 games with those big bats. I think the same will hold true for the Yankees, although an injury to their closer may affect their psyche more due to how much Mo has meant to their success.

[TheRivernator]

Maybe your own words will shut you the f*** up....

 

 

 

f*** man, it's on the same damn page. Don't you remember what you said 5 minutes ago? Hypocrite.

 

at least my feelings are based off cold hard stats....

[Americal Man]

Just finished reading this thread. i see everyone met the rivernator last night. get used to the long posts on why the yankmees are the better team and will win it all. Last year we pointed out on the BH forum that their pitching was awful and wouldn't last - guess what happened. not much is going to change this year except that both our staring pitching and the pen are better that the yankmees and now we can watch it play out.

 

another great day to be a red sox fan - we have a lot to look forward to this year. watching coco grow will be the best part after schill wins his Th game.

[ORS]

Mine aren't? I gave you cold hard stats. Stats that showed by the end of the season he was approaching his pre-injury level of performance as he came closer and closer to a full recovery. The timing of those stats agree with the recovery period given by his doctors. I don't know what other facts you need.

 

On the other hand, you "feel" his July/August performances were at full health. What do you have to back this "feeling" up? I saw with my own eyes that he didn't have full drive on his ankle, and every broadcaster doing a Sox game that Schilling pitched in said the same thing. I saw with my own eyes that his velocity had dropped by 4-5 mph on his 4-seamer upon returning.

 

My notion that he can return has nothing to do with a "feeling". It is based on observations and statistical analysis. Your "feeling" that he won't return is certainly a feeling, and that feeling is called hope.

 

EDIT: typos

[Americal Man]

ORS,

I agree with you about schilling's performance last year. he will return to form and we will have a much better pitching staff than last year with him leading the way.

[TheRivernator]

Mine aren't? I gave you cold hard stats. Stats that showed by the end of the season he was approaching his pre-injury level of performance as he came closer and closer to a full recovery. The timing of those stats agree with the recovery period given by his doctors. I don't what other facts you need.

 

One the other hand, you "feel" his July/August performances were at full health. What do you have to back this "feeling" up? I saw with my own eyes that he didn't have full drive on his ankel, and every broadcaster doing a Sox game that Schilling pitched in said the same thing. I saw with my own eyes that his velocity had dropped by 4-5 mph on his 4-seamer upon returning.

 

My notion that he can return has nothing to do with a "feeling". It is based on observations and statistical analysis. Your "feeling" that he won't return is certainly a feeling, and that feeling is called hope.

 

 

you gave no stats. Here are his stats for when he returned to starting at the end of august....

 

3-3 5.76ERA 45.1IP 29ER 67H 13BB 40K 1.54WHIP 7.9K/9IP 2.6BB/9IP

 

that is improving??? I see that his era did improve in september, but still man. He was as inconsistent as they come. I have said before, I do not expect him to continue his putrid stats, but I also dont think he will be the horse he was in 2004. Somewhere inbetween is more likely....

[TheRivernator]

col, why can't anyone be honest with themselves on here? Nobody knows which Schilling will return, BUT, going off what they saw last yr, you can hardly expect the 2004 version to stomp into the fens....

[riverside sluggers]

Mine aren't? I gave you cold hard stats. Stats that showed by the end of the season he was approaching his pre-injury level of performance as he came closer and closer to a full recovery. The timing of those stats agree with the recovery period given by his doctors. I don't what other facts you need.

 

One the other hand, you "feel" his July/August performances were at full health. What do you have to back this "feeling" up? I saw with my own eyes that he didn't have full drive on his ankel, and every broadcaster doing a Sox game that Schilling pitched in said the same thing. I saw with my own eyes that his velocity had dropped by 4-5 mph on his 4-seamer upon returning.

 

My notion that he can return has nothing to do with a "feeling". It is based on observations and statistical analysis. Your "feeling" that he won't return is certainly a feeling, and that feeling is called hope.

 

very true, him also losing considerable weight over the offseason is a good sign as well. Less weight he has to push off his ankle. This is alo around the projected time they gave for the ankle to fully heal from surgery

[ORS]

you gave no stats. Here are his stats for when he returned to starting at the end of august....

 

3-3 5.76ERA 45.1IP 29ER 67H 13BB 40K 1.54WHIP 7.9K/9IP 2.6BB/9IP

 

that is improving??? I see that his era did improve in september, but still man. He was as inconsistent as they come. I have said before, I do not expect him to continue his putrid stats, but I also dont think he will be the horse he was in 2004. Somewhere inbetween is more likely....

I did give stats, and I'll give them again. In his last 3 starts:

 

8.4 K/9, 1.39 K/9, 0.93 HR/9, 11.12 H/9, 2.79 ERA

 

2004 Reg. Season

 

8.06 K/9, 1.39 BB/9, 0.91 HR/9, 8.18 H/9, 3.26 ERA

 

I'm looking at these three games because I watched all of his games last year, and his mechanics looked off until about mid-September. This is reflected in his walk totals for each of his games pitched. If you look at his game log, you'll see an improving trend. This agrees with reports that he wasn't fully healed.

 

You have claimed that he was at full health from July on, and that all of his stats from last year should be taken at face value. I would love to see some credible analysis that supports your claim he was at full health.

[Plumpamania]

If you read the Simmons article with the Schilling interview (also posted here) Schilling does say his ankle felt prohibitive until about the last 15 days of the regular season.

[TheRivernator]

I did give stats, and I'll give them again. In his last 3 starts:

 

8.4 K/9, 1.39 K/9, 0.93 HR/9, 11.12 H/9, 2.79 ERA

 

2004 Reg. Season

 

8.06 K/9, 1.39 BB/9, 0.91 HR/9, 8.18 H/9, 3.26 ERA

 

I'm looking at these three games because I watched all of his games last year, and his mechanics looked off until about mid-September. This is reflected in his walk totals for each of his games pitched. If you look at his game log, you'll see an improving trend. This agrees with reports that he wasn't fully healed.

 

You have claimed that he was at full health from July on, and that all of his stats from last year should be taken at face value. I would love to see some credible analysis that supports your claim he was at full health.

 

so you will go by 3 starts??? 3 starts is such a small sample size.

 

take a look at these sample of 3 starts going into the playoffs, can you guess who they are...

 

22.2IP 1ER 5K 5BB 11H 0.41ERA

21.2IP 8ER 11K 8BB 17H 3.31ERA

21.1IP 4ER 16K 5BB 12H 1.69ERA

 

Maybe I should be expecting all 3 of these guys to be aces too (well one of them is our ace, just a hint)???

[TheRivernator]

If you read the Simmons article with the Schilling interview (also posted here) Schilling does say his ankle felt prohibitive until about the last 15 days of the regular season.

 

that is a great way of making excuses for poor performances...

[riverside sluggers]

Are you still talking?

 

Whatever, we realize he wont be close to 2004 level, but he is set for a comeback in the area of 15 wins/3.90-4.15 ERA

[ORS]

so you will go by 3 starts??? 3 starts is such a small sample size.

 

take a look at these sample of 3 starts going into the playoffs, can you guess who they are...

 

22.2IP 1ER 5K 5BB 11H 0.41ERA

21.2IP 8ER 11K 8BB 17H 3.31ERA

21.1IP 4ER 16K 5BB 12H 1.69ERA

 

Maybe I should be expecting all 3 of these guys to be aces too (well one of them is our ace, just a hint)???

I think you are missing my main point, and that is that prior to mid-September, Schilling's injury was still affecting his pitching mechanics. Those same mechanics that would affect his control, as you suggested when we discussed the difference between being an NFL RB and an MLB SP. You think he was healthy prior to then, I think he was still hurt. My thought is supported by the doctors expected recovery period and what I saw in his mechanics. You have done very little to support your claim he was at full heatlh.

 

No, 3 starts isn't a good sample size, but a small sample is better than a tainted one. I don't think you can prove that a larger sample isn't tainted by his injury. I'll guess those three pitchers were Johnson, Chacon, and Wang, but it really could be anyone over a three start period.

 

I'm not thinking he could return to form without some doubts. There is certainly the possibility that he'll never be the same pitcher he was before. I'm just not writing off the possibility that he does because evidence from the tail end of last season and the projected 14-18 month recovery period suggest that there is a strong likelihood that he will be a very good pitcher again.

[TheRivernator]

Are you still talking?

 

Whatever, we realize he wont be close to 2004 level, but he is set for a comeback in the area of 15 wins/3.90-4.15 ERA

 

 

I actually said on the now dead BH forum...moment of silence......that Schilling will put up numbers similar to those that Clement put up last yr. 15 wins mid 4's era....

[TheRivernator]

I think you are missing my main point, and that is that prior to mid-September, Schilling's injury was still affecting his pitching mechanics. Those same mechanics that would affect his control, as you suggested when we discussed the difference between being an NFL RB and an MLB SP. You think he was healthy prior to then, I think he was still hurt. My thought is supported by the doctors expected recovery period and what I saw in his mechanics. You have done very little to support your claim he was at full heatlh.

 

No, 3 starts isn't a good sample size, but a small sample is better than a tainted one. I don't think you can prove that a larger sample isn't tainted by his injury. I'll guess those three pitchers were Johnson, Chacon, and Wang, but it really could be anyone over a three start period.

 

I'm not thinking he could return to form without some doubts. There is certainly the possibility that he'll never be the same pitcher he was before. I'm just not writing off the possibility that he does because evidence from the tail end of last season and the projected 14-18 month recovery period suggest that there is a strong likelihood that he will be a very good pitcher again.

 

 

Okay, I really like the above post. You addressed the fact that you are cautiously optimistic, which is fine. To be blatantly optimistic and ignoring the facts is stupid. Acknowledging the potential for failure and hoping for the best is a reasonable apporach...

[Manny Goes Boom]

so you will go by 3 starts??? 3 starts is such a small sample size.

 

take a look at these sample of 3 starts going into the playoffs, can you guess who they are...

 

22.2IP 1ER 5K 5BB 11H 0.41ERA Wang

21.2IP 8ER 11K 8BB 17H 3.31ERA Small

21.1IP 4ER 16K 5BB 12H 1.69ERA Unit

 

Maybe I should be expecting all 3 of these guys to be aces too (well one of them is our ace, just a hint)???

 

Am I right???

[Plumpamania]

that is a great way of making excuses for poor performances...

 

 

Just who in the hell do you think you are? Want to talk about question makrs on your team?

 

SP Mike Mussina

SP Chein Ming Wang

SP Shawn Chacon

MR Tanyon Sturtze

MR Octavio Dotel

C Jorge Posada

RF Gary Sheffield

 

 

 

Not to even mention Johnson's knee. Don't come around here acting like a big shot, ok?

[example1]

Just who in the hell do you think you are? Want to talk about question makrs on your team?

 

SP Mike Mussina

SP Chein Ming Wang

SP Shawn Chacon

MR Tanyon Sturtze

MR Octavio Dotel

C Jorge Posada

RF Gary Sheffield

 

 

 

Not to even mention Johnson's knee. Don't come around here acting like a big shot, ok?

 

Tanyon Sturtze is still on the Yankees?

[TheRivernator]

Just who in the hell do you think you are? Want to talk about question makrs on your team?

 

SP Mike Mussina

SP Chein Ming Wang

SP Shawn Chacon

MR Tanyon Sturtze

MR Octavio Dotel

C Jorge Posada

RF Gary Sheffield

 

 

 

Not to even mention Johnson's knee. Don't come around here acting like a big shot, ok?

 

 

did I say anything about question marks? No, my point that you are contexting is that Schilling is making excuses for his poor performance. Anyone want to rebut that point??

[The Monster is my Mom]

Okay, I really like the above post. You addressed the fact that you are cautiously optimistic, which is fine. To be blatantly optimistic and ignoring the facts is stupid. Acknowledging the potential for failure and hoping for the best is a reasonable apporach...

 

I think that is what most people have been saying - that we hope and have good reason to believe that he will return to previous form - but no one knows for sure, not even the most loyal of fans.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

did I say anything about question marks? No, my point that you are contexting is that Schilling is making excuses for his poor performance. Anyone want to rebut that point??

 

If you know anything about baseball you could clearly see the difference in his pitching mechanics last season. He couldn't hide the splitter to any extent and thats his money pitch. He wasn't able to get the velocity and make a full push when delivering his fastball which means......................no pitches are getting set and the pitches he made wouldn't move enough with the down velocity meaning his pitches wouldn't hit the locations...lets talk about someone else who has to deal with something like that this season....

 

Randy Johnson is 43 years old and for anyone that saw...his velocity was down last year. That really hurt the slider more than anything cause he couldn't get it to drop down. The games he got hammered were the games he was unable to get the slider down in the zone. Luckily his fastball velocity was down but he was still able to hit 95-93. The big problem with Johnson is his age and he is losing strength. Once it starts going....it will start going quick.

 

Between the two of them...whoever is in the best shape going into this year will have a better season. Everything I have heard was that Curt Schilling was making great strides and in fantastic shape (I saw a pic..he is in great shape for Schill standards). I haven't heard anything from Johnson and he will reach a peak age before Schilling....should be interesting to watch but I will deffinitly put the excuse on his injury. I wanna see you push off with an injured foot and see how you do.