Done to a Crisp and Gonzalez Too

[bosox318]

The Boston Globe is reporting that the Sox and Guardians are talking about a Marte for Crisp trade.

Today they said they were talkign about a six player trade involving Mota to but the main pieces are likely to be Marte and Crisp.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/01/21/sox_hope_to_work_indians_to_a_crisp/

I see the deal being somethign like this

Sox get: Crisp, Riske, and Prospect

Guardians Get: Marte, Mota and Prospect

 

I just wanted to here your opinions of the deal

[Beckett95]

this deal sucks and better not happen

 

that "prospect" the Guardians would give us is supposedly either Brad Snyder, Ryan Garko and Jason Dubois

[jimmycarter05]

I agree, Crisp is not good in the leadoff spot which is what we need, I'd much rather have Sizemore and have Cleveland drop a the prospect to get him.

[Cityofchampions33]

yeah, if they want to get they have to give, Sizemore in my eyes would be a lot more fair for the best 3b prospect tehre is in Marte. Hell I'll even thro in someone else for Sizmore if they really want it.

[bosox318]

Wow Marte for Sizemore would be amazing but the Guardians won't give him up considering he is the best overall player on that team right now.

I am one who wants to keep Marte because I think he could be special. He also provides a power RH bat for a corner infielder which almost as hard to find as an ace pitcher.

 

However saying that the Sox do need a CF and Crisp could be a very good replacement and could be under there control for the next 4 yrs pretty cheaply.

 

But I think Marte is to high of a price for him. I think Marte will not only have value for the Sox for the next few years but he could be a very valuble piece to trade at the trading deadline that could possibly net us a Zito or schidmt or someone else who can help us make a run.

[MANNYHOF24]

I love this deal, Crisp has Damon numbers over the past 2 seasons and is a better defensive OF. He also is younger makes little money and has great speed, good deal!

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Another way to look at this deal is Edgar Renteria for Coco Crisp. They are close to the same age, abilities, stats, etc....

 

Trading Edgar Renteria for Grady Sizemore is tough. The Guardians would be getting wrecked in that deal. So my question would be...would you throw in something else with Marte for Sizemore?? If the Red Sox were to gain Grady Sizemore then Jacoby Ellsbury has a tough time breaking into his prime position. Perhaps Andy Marte and Jacoby Ellsbury for Grady Sizemore. If they need a reliever you can say....Andy Marte, Jacoby Ellsbury, and Guillermo Mota for Grady Sizemore and Brandon Phillips?? I certainly can see other options to explore with the Guardians but again I can't judge anything without hearing all the names involved.

[Beckett95]

how about arroyo, mota and a mid-level prospect for Crisp. If their only interest is marte, than the red sox shouldnt even be talking to them unless theyd give up sizemore (theres probably about a 2% chance they would deal away sizemore no matter whos involved). If we did get crisp, where would he bat?? He's .332 career obp isnt good enough to bat leadoff and we already have loretta to bat 2nd. I would say he'd have to bat 7 or 8 unless youk has trouble getting on-base. i think youk we'll have around a .380 obp. The redsox aren't really in need of a lead-off hitter. If youk can't get on base (which i dont think is a problem) the sox would be better off tradinf for a Randy Winn or Milton Bradely before the trade deadline. For now they could look into maybe Jeff DaVanon, who has a career obp of .348. The other option is to trade wells for roberts or arroyo for reed. DONT GIVE UP MARTE.

 

lineup with davanon

1. Youk

2. Loretta

3. Ortiz

4. Manny

5. Nixon

6. Lowell

7. Varitek

8. Alex Gonzalez (much better all-around player than cora)

9. DaVanon

[guapo34]

Grady Sizemore isn't going anywhere. People who think Marte is worth Sizemore are either overvaluing Marte or undervaluing Sizemore. He's 23, put up better numbers than Crisp offensively, and is much better defensively too. Crisp is still very good though, and is a major upgrade over any of our in house CF options. Its tough to speculate on how good the potential deal is without knowing all the other players involved. If the players we're getting minus crisp are better than the ones we're giving up minus marte it makes it pretty close to a fair trade in my opinion.

 

Just to speculate, what if we could move the other guys in the trade to get Julio Lugo. Now we've filled 2 holes and improved our team from last year that won 95 games.

 

I would hate to see us trade Marte, but I think I'd be able to understand.

[example1]

this deal sucks and better not happen

 

that "prospect" the Guardians would give us is supposedly either Brad Snyder, Ryan Garko and Jason Dubois

 

Where are you getting that information? I read the article and it said nothing about which prospects the Guardians were giving up, and on this board as well as a few others there is wild speculation about who those players might be.

 

I'm in favor of doing this is we get good prospects back in return. If its one of the Guardians top 5 prospects and another pretty good one (or young one), plus Crisp for Marte, Mota and another young prospect, it could be a good deal.

 

Crisp is a good young player. He has made it at the ML level and, as opposed to Marte, he isn't a question mark. We know what we would get (at the least) and Crisp has a pretty high ceiling as well. A good, multi year CF replacement option? Sounds good. We also have Kevin Youkilis who can easily be our 3b of the future, as the Sox can go out and find another first baseman. I really don't think its the equivalent of giving up Babe Ruth for coco crisp.

 

Talk about getting sizemore or Peralta is just silly. That's the equivalent of other teams asking for Papelbon or Hansen; its just not going to happen. Given that, let's be realistic about what we're hoping for. You want Sizemore? Offer Pepelbon. You want Peralta? Offer lester. Peralta and Sizemore are probably worth MORE than those guys.

 

I think some of us need to get our heads out of our asses and realize that other teams just aren't going to give up their very best players for prospects. They might give up some of their better players for prospects, and if those players fit what the sox need then that's okay too. We would still have a rich and deep farm system without Marte, given that what we're ultimately concerned with is not the minor league system but the major league club. Crisp would be a top prospect, if he weren't already one of the better OFers in the AL for his age.

 

I think this deal has a good chance of happening and I feel that Crisp could be a great fixture in the Sox lineup for a few years. The fans will like him, he will provide 5 pretty good tools, and will make this team a potent one for the next few years.

 

Crisp

Loretta

Ortiz

Manny

Varitek

Lowell

Trot

Youkilis

Cora

 

Potent 1-8, good defense at 9.

[guapo34]

Just wanted to post more positives on Crisp. His road number were far better than his home numbers last year. This is also true of Hafner and Sizemore. I didn't realize how much of a pitchers park Jacobs field is. .888 OPS on the road. .370 obp, .518 slg., 12 HR

[pats55sox45]

as much as i would love to keep marte, if we would be getting crisp back in a deal id be willing to move him

 

as someone mentioned its like givin renteria for crisp, and i would do that in a heartbeat

 

remember i said it: crisp will be better than damon next year and in the future, whether we get him or not

[a700hitter]

as much as i would love to keep marte, if we would be getting crisp back in a deal id be willing to move him

 

as someone mentioned its like givin renteria for crisp, and i would do that in a heartbeat

 

remember i said it: crisp will be better than damon next year and in the future, whether we get him or not

Renteria + $11 million. Do you still do it?

[guapo34]

Renteria + $11 million. Do you still do it?

 

Considering Crisp would be more than $11 million cheaper than Renteria, yes. I don't like this comparison though. Renteria + $11 million for Marte was a really good deal. Now we have Marte, so why would we compare Rentaria to what we get for Marte?

[ksushi]

I'm sorry, but Crisp is not a good centerfielder, if the sox make this move its f***ing terrible. Its not O.K. its not just annoying, its not something a division title would make me forget about. Its f***ing terrible. Marte could be a gold gloving 40 homer threat under our control for the next 6 years. And you want to get Crisp for him? Coco Crisp? You're kidding me. He is a bad centerfielder who benefitted greatly from that move to left field. We don't need more offense, we're better off with a stop gap measure for this year, and search elsewhere for a more suitable long term replacement next year. Its the better solution. I'm sorry, this deal sucks. Not going to write anything happy about it or talk about it in depth, it sucks. We don't need a hitter, it'd be nice to get someone who could hit and play good D, but right now good D has to take priority. Why don't we just give them Papelbon and see if they can be gracious enough to give us Belliard and make an even bigger log jam for us at 2nd base. Oooh, I know, we can give them Marte, Lester and Papelbon and get Crisp, Belliard and Bob Wickman! That would be awesome. Nevermind guys, im happy now. The Red Sox were a lot more fun when they didn't have an excellent future lined up. Looking forward to 86 years of the Yankees s***ing on us is really just how it should be.

 

Crisp might eventually be able to out-hit Damon, but thats because Coco won't be getting a cortazone shot every 3 days and Crisp isn't a deteriorating 34 year old. Crisp is not going to be Damon. Damon, despite his horrible arm, was a good fielder. Crisp takes awful routes and has bad outfield instincts. This is horrible. I'm going to mourn.

 

Comparing dealing Renteria, instead of Marte, for Crisp is absurd. The Braves made a mistake in giving us Marte, they could have solved their hole at short, and at the closer position with him if they had waited on it. The acted out of need and sometimes thats bad. The Sox cannot act out of need right now. Despite how desparate a situation this may seem to be, if we finish 3rd in 06 with a stop gap CFer (which we won't BTW we will finish higher than that but just for the purpose of my arguement here) I would rather take that, than win the division and lessen our future. Forget it. Bad move. Post over. I'm going to sit in my bed cover my head with a pillow and cry. Thats right, cry.

[example1]

I'm sorry, but Crisp is not a good centerfielder, if the sox make this move its f***ing terrible. Its not O.K. its not just annoying, its not something a division title would make me forget about. Its f***ing terrible. Marte could be a gold gloving 40 homer threat under our control for the next 6 years. And you want to get Crisp for him? Coco Crisp? You're kidding me. He is a bad centerfielder who benefitted greatly from that move to left field. We don't need more offense, we're better off with a stop gap measure for this year, and search elsewhere for a more suitable long term replacement next year. Its the better solution. I'm sorry, this deal sucks. Not going to write anything happy about it or talk about it in depth, it sucks. We don't need a hitter, it'd be nice to get someone who could hit and play good D, but right now good D has to take priority. Why don't we just give them Papelbon and see if they can be gracious enough to give us Belliard and make an even bigger log jam for us at 2nd base. Oooh, I know, we can give them Marte, Lester and Papelbon and get Crisp, Belliard and Bob Wickman! That would be awesome. Nevermind guys, im happy now. The Red Sox were a lot more fun when they didn't have an excellent future lined up. Looking forward to 86 years of the Yankees s***ing on us is really just how it should be.

 

Crisp might eventually be able to out-hit Damon, but thats because Coco won't be getting a cortazone shot every 3 days and Crisp isn't a deteriorating 34 year old. Crisp is not going to be Damon. Damon, despite his horrible arm, was a good fielder. Crisp takes awful routes and has bad outfield instincts. This is horrible. I'm going to mourn.

 

Comparing dealing Renteria, instead of Marte, for Crisp is absurd. The Braves made a mistake in giving us Marte, they could have solved their hole at short, and at the closer position with him if they had waited on it. The acted out of need and sometimes thats bad. The Sox cannot act out of need right now. Despite how desparate a situation this may seem to be, if we finish 3rd in 06 with a stop gap CFer (which we won't BTW we will finish higher than that but just for the purpose of my arguement here) I would rather take that, than win the division and lessen our future. Forget it. Bad move. Post over. I'm going to sit in my bed cover my head with a pillow and cry. Thats right, cry.

 

I hope you've settled down after your rant Ksushi. I just don't think its that bad of a move. Its not like they're trading Marte for an old player. Crisp has been an admirable player over the past few years and should continue to be a good one. On the surface Crisp for Marte isn't a fair deal. If you throw in a few top prospects from Cleveland (say, players on the caliber of Anibel Sanchez or Hanley) then its not that bad a deal. They have a few players who have a high upside. If they really covet Marte then perhaps the sox brass will find a way to make them overpay.

 

I just don't expect the Red Sox to make a stupid trade and trade away the next generation's Brooks Robinson or Scott Rolen for a player who ends up being like Matt Lawton. They just wouldn't do that. You know that and I know that.

 

I can't even think of the last bad trade the sox made... I supposed Jay Payton for Chad Bradford was a little bit of a let down, but it wasn't significant either given that Payton wanted to leave at all costs.

 

In any case, if Marte is really going to be a 40 HR perennial all star then the sox won't trade him without a fair deal coming back the other way. Have some faith and get your head out of the pillow!

[example1]

Sorry to follow up, but its been 30 minutes or so and I just thought of something.

 

Is Marte currently the Sox 4th outfielder/platoon mate with Trot? Is that where he'll get his playing time? It seems like Youkilis or T. Graff would be the 3rd base backup, with JT Snow a more than suitable fill-in 1B. If they've asked Marte already about playing the outfield (which I read they had) isn't he a potential RHH RF, perhaps more often on the road than at Fenway?

 

In any case, that's a good reason to try anything but trading Marte to get Crisp. I would say you can take any two players from the following list for Crisp:

 

Clement, Arroyo, Shoppach, Lowell, Wells, Graffinino, Mota, Seanez, plus any minor leaguer not named Marte, Papelbon, Hansen, Lester, Pedroia, Ellsbury, Soto or Bowden.

 

If there is ANY way to get a deal from the above list I would make it. I think Crisp is versetile and getting better. He meets 2 needs and is above average offensively. I agree with Ksushi, in that we don't NEED offense. At the same time, I think it is clear that the Sox have improved their pitching staff and potentially (especially by losing Damon without an adequate replacement) lowered our offensive output. Crisp may remedy it a little bit and make the team very solid on both sides of the ball. He's definitely not Torii Hunter defensively, but I think he would prove to be as good as Damon. I thought that Damoon made plays that MLB center fielders should make, and he didn't make many that they shouldn't make. He made nice looking jumping catches but so did a lot of visiting CFs. Damon's arm was simply horrible. His greatest asset was a very strong knowledge of Fenway's CF.

 

Crisp would be great to get at even a high cost. He doesn't suck. He's not Damon right now, and he's not what Marte MIGHT be. However, he is a more than adequate player to have in any of the three OF positions.

[jsinger121]

Marte has 40 homer potential at a corner position something that is very hard to find. unless we are getting Adam Miller along with crisp this trade should never happen.

[a700hitter]

Marte has 40 homer potential at a corner position something that is very hard to find. unless we are getting Adam Miller along with crisp this trade should never happen.

We need a CF, and the farm will not be yielding a crop for at least 2 years. There's not a lot out there to choose from. San Diego wants to stick us with Woody Williams if we get Roberts. That would be stupid. Griffey is old and expensive. Reed has shown little promise to justify parting with a top prospect. Matos has not shown much to justify gikving up Clement or Arroyo or a top prospect. Where does that leave us-- Jason Michaels? Steve Finley?

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Marte has 40 homer potential at a corner position something that is very hard to find. unless we are getting Adam Miller along with crisp this trade should never happen.

 

Stop writing that...its not THAT hard to find a corner infielder who has power. Nothing says Andy Marte is going to hit 40 HRs. The fact he "could" be playing half his games at fenway means he could hit 40 HRs. On that note...Mike Lowell has hit 30+ HRs playing for Florida...HE could hit 40 HRs for us (I wouldn't expect it but its possible).

 

I'm not saying I don't like Andy Marte. I would love to keep him on this team but NOBODY is safe on the Red Sox. Anyone can get traded and I have faith the Red Sox front office knows what they are doing. Now that Theo Epstein is back I like his decision making and thought process of the FO. If we trade Andy Marte for Crisp and pitching prospects then I am excited. Adam Miller had arm issues last year so that makes me nervous. In my opinion pitching prospects are MUCH more valuable than position players. Those are the guys who get locked up. Roy Oswalt, Carlos Zambrano, Roy Halladay, Ben Sheets, Johan Santana....the way to get those guys is to groom them.

[a700hitter]

http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=122417

Andy Marte, We hardly knew ye.

[jsinger121]

this makes me wanna puke.

[a700hitter]

Should have kept Damon. We would still have Marte and Mota. You had to know that they weren't going into the season with Stern, Harris or Michaels. Crisp was going to cost us, and it's done. I could see this coming from when Damon walked. I knew there would be a price to pay down the line. I'm just glad there is apparently no second prospect involved.

[jsinger121]

if its not too hard to find then how come there are not that many on the free agent market. teams tend to lock them up before they reach free agency.

[jsinger121]

i don't care about mota....giving up marte is plain stupid

[jsinger121]

remember this is coming from the boston herald. i will believe it when i see it. the globe has not even picked up on it yet and they are closer to the red sox than anyone.

[26 to 6]

Im not too thrilled with it, but im not too disappointed either. Glad that you get Marte out and glad that you weaken the bullpen, but not glad with the Crispy addition.

[jsinger121]

no other media outlet has this story except the trashy boston herald.

[a700hitter]

no other media outlet has this story except the trashy boston herald.

You can continue to hope. I think it could have been worse.

[guapo34]

Can't really comment on the entire trade until its official. Obviously I love getting Crisp...but hate giving up Marte. The Guardians get the better talent, but we get the better talent for this year, and probably next year too. Marte could easily take 2-3 years before hes an above average major league player, but it will certainly happen. Crisps' road numbers make me believe he could put up close to a .900ops as a center fielder. Thats pretty damn good.

 

And if you think its rediculous to think he could put up a .900 OPS, his road OPS was .888 last year, and hes only 26. He hits more than enough to play a corner outfield position if we decide to move him there in 2007.

 

 

And if the Herald is wrong I'll still be happy.