Alex Rodriguez wins AL MVP

[He Hate Me]

It isn't tough physically.

 

Why do players always make it sound like it is? They must be liars, after all you would know better than them.

 

Obviously you need the talent to field any position, but that isn't the argument.

 

I'm glad you agree that ARod has more talent than Ortiz.

[ORS]

You can't seriously believe that playing defense (especially the infield) everyday doesn't affect you physically. I'm sure the entire players union would have something to say aobut that.

The everyday effects aren't the argument. Your point has been than ARod doesn't perform in close and late situations because he's so tired by the 7th inning. The game isn't so taxing that HOF hitters have a cinderella-like transformation into league average hitters once the pitcher takes the mound in the 7th.

 

EDIT: His C&L splits are above league average. In a small sample he has a significant drop in AVG, SLG, OPS, and HR/AB, but not in OBP. This means he was walking a lot more, which leads me to believe he saw fewer good pitches to hit as pitchers were being careful during his ABs.

[ARod2212]

The everyday effects aren't the argument. Your point has been than ARod doesn't perform in close and late situations because he's so tired by the 7th inning. The game isn't so taxing that HOF hitters have a cinderella-like transformation into league average hitters once the pitcher takes the mound in the 7th.

Common sense here. It's less demanding to sit around and wait for your next at bat than play the field in between. Over 162 games, that will tax you more.

[ORS]

Common sense here. It's less demanding to sit around and wait for your next at bat than play the field in between. Over 162 games, that will tax you more.

I'm not arguing that being a DH and playing 3B are equivalent in terms of physical exertion. Nor am I denying the effects of playing every day.

 

My point of contention was with the idea that ARod wasn't able to do what Ortiz did in C&L splits solely because he plays the field, which, magically makes him so tired that he turns into a Trot Nixon type hitter.

 

It does wear you down to play every day, but that didn't affect ARod's 2nd half performance. He had better AVG, OBP, SLG, OPS, and HR/AB after the ASB. If the first 3 months didn't slow him down from performing in the second 3, then why would innings 1-6 affect his performance in innings 7-9?

[ARod2212]

Well that's definitely not the case. There is no doubt in my mind that Ortiz is far more clutch of a hitter, and if anybody doubts that they should be shot.

 

However the factor I'm getting at in deciding this whole MVP thing, is Ortiz only had to hit and Rodriguez had to hit and field. The fact that Rodriguez could do both (better) is far more important of a factor than Ortiz' ability in the clutch.

[26 to 6]

I'm not arguing that being a DH and playing 3B are equivalent in terms of physical exertion. Nor am I denying the effects of playing every day.

 

My point of contention was with the idea that ARod wasn't able to do what Ortiz did in C&L splits solely because he plays the field, which, magically makes him so tired that he turns into a Trot Nixon type hitter.

 

It does wear you down to play every day, but that didn't affect ARod's 2nd half performance. He had better AVG, OBP, SLG, OPS, and HR/AB after the ASB. If the first 3 months didn't slow him down from performing in the second 3, then why would innings 1-6 affect his performance in innings 7-9?

So then isnt it amazing that considering for much more exerting playing is on A-Rod that he has better numbers that Ortiz? That said, he deserves the MVP.

You said it yourself.

 

I'm not arguing that being a DH and playing 3B are equivalent in terms of physical exertion. Nor am I denying the effects of playing every day.

[ORS]

Well that's definitely not the case. There is no doubt in my mind that Ortiz is far more clutch of a hitter, and if anybody doubts that they should be shot.

 

However the factor I'm getting at in deciding this whole MVP thing, is Ortiz only had to hit and Rodriguez had to hit and field. The fact that Rodriguez could do both (better) is far more important of a factor than Ortiz' ability in the clutch.

That is a philosophical question. Saber types argue that good offense outweighs good defense. Considering that ARod, statistically at least, played about average 3B this year, I'm willing to say that his defensive contribution vs. Ortiz's C&L performance are a wash. I actually think ARod deserved the award. He lead the AL in VORP and WARP1, and he lead MLB in EqA and EqR. However, none of those metrics take into account the timing of the production, so it wouldn't be a travesty if Ortiz had won the award.

 

EDIT: Added EqA.

[ARod2212]

That is a philosophical question. Saber types argue that good offense outweighs good defense. Considering that ARod, statistically at least, played about average 3B this year, I'm willing to say that his defensive contribution vs. Ortiz's C&L performance are a wash. I actually think ARod deserved the award. He lead the AL in VORP, WARP1, and RC. However, none of those metrics take into account the timing of the production, so it wouldn't be a travesty if Ortiz had won the award.

I understand where you are coming from. The thing that is bothering me is that people seem to be interpreting the award as "Most Valuable Player from the 7th inning on, or in a clutch spot" and not "Most Valuable Player for the ENTIRE 2005 season". The 2005 season encompasses every single pitch thrown all year, and across the whole season Rodriguez had a better year in nearly every single statistic.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

All I hear are excuses to make it sound like Alex Rodriguez is the MVP. He plays defense.....great there are plenty of those in baseball....he isn't the top fielder on his team or close to the top in the league so whatever we are trying to say about him...forget it. Physical talent I'll give it to A-Rod. David Ortiz wasn't blessed with a athletic body other than to crush a baseball. So I'll give an edge to A-Rod physically....but mentally.....its clear on EVERY level that Ortiz has it together. All of you who talk about playing baseball..."uuhh I played the field, 3B for that matter I know how hard it is".....if you play baseball then you are fully aware of the pressure and mental anguish you go through when having to come up with a big hit. You either look like a jackass or you get the job done and that is clearly the most difficult part in any sport. Having to sink a birdie putt, score on a breakaway, make the free-throw, score on a penalty kick, hit a game winning homerun. A-Rod never comes through with those where David Ortiz does. Thats the difference between a hero and someone who was simply blessed with talent.

[He Hate Me]

He plays defense.....great there are plenty of those in baseball

 

but Ortiz isn't one of them.

 

On the other hand, Ortiz hits, which Arod does also

 

 

BTW of course we're going to defend ARod. You're badmouthing him. We show the stats and the arguments that he plays defense, and you label them as excuses. shrug, just can't win with some of you folks.

[ORS]

We show the stats and the arguments that he plays defense, and you label them as excuses.

I'm a little unclear on something. If I'm not to interpret the statement, "ARod's C&L splits weren't as good because he plays defense and is tired by the end of the game", as an excuse, then what should I interpret it as?

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

but Ortiz isn't one of them.

 

On the other hand, Ortiz hits, which Arod does also

 

 

BTW of course we're going to defend ARod. You're badmouthing him. We show the stats and the arguments that he plays defense, and you label them as excuses. shrug, just can't win with some of you folks.

 

You are on a Red Sox forum....so if you think we would yield to your A-Rod is better than Ortiz you are incorrect. My opinion about A-Rod will never change. I do not like the guy just as a majority of your own team does not. He is a selfish me-first snob who does not embody what I consider a player I would want on a team. You should read "The Education of a Coach" by David Halberstam. Its about Bill Belichick and how he chooses and makes players for the NFL. You can have all the talent in the world like Alex Rodriguez but when it comes to a team...you can have all the individual stats and trophy awards in the world...your team will care less. Barry Bonds is a great player....I don't want him. Alex Rodriguez is a great player....I still think he does more harm than good. He does not embody what I consider a MVP....if you took him off the Yankees you would be just fine....I bet your team would rally more and be able to slug out some games cause your players would feed off each other. Your team in 2003 was better than your team now.

[He Hate Me]

You are on a Red Sox forum....so if you think we would yield to your A-Rod is better than Ortiz you are incorrect. My opinion about A-Rod will never change. I do not like the guy just as a majority of your own team does not. He is a selfish me-first snob who does not embody what I consider a player I would want on a team. You should read "The Education of a Coach" by David Halberstam. Its about Bill Belichick and how he chooses and makes players for the NFL. You can have all the talent in the world like Alex Rodriguez but when it comes to a team...you can have all the individual stats and trophy awards in the world...your team will care less. Barry Bonds is a great player....I don't want him. Alex Rodriguez is a great player....I still think he does more harm than good. He does not embody what I consider a MVP....if you took him off the Yankees you would be just fine....I bet your team would rally more and be able to slug out some games cause your players would feed off each other. Your team in 2003 was better than your team now.

 

I dont expect anyone to yield to our opinion of ARod. Only that they stop bringing everyone down just to build up Ortiz to be some kind of Superman.

 

As for Arod being a team player. Well let's just say my favorite teams were the 94-96 teams, and leave it at that. At least I'm a team player, and will take one for the team

[He Hate Me]

I'm a little unclear on something. If I'm not to interpret the statement, "ARod's C&L splits weren't as good because he plays defense and is tired by the end of the game", as an excuse, then what should I interpret it as?

 

humm thats a pretty good point. I don't really have a good comeback for that. How about I offer you free porn to forget about it?

[ORS]

humm thats a pretty good point. I don't really have a good comeback for that. How about I offer you free porn to forget about it?

Thanks, but no thanks, the wife tends to frown on porn.

[soxsecurity05]

As an employee, I never did like those damn sports writers. They thought they could go anywhere in the park because they are GOD and they know everything. Clearly, they don't know as much as they claim they do. They were never behind the scenes unless it was in the locker room. But nothing too important can be learned there.

 

MVP, to me, is the man who steps up on and off the field, as well. I worked the new underground batting tunnel this year which was behind the dugout. The days after blowouts or losses in general, most of the guys were down. Ortiz would walk in and everyone would be laughing. He always cracked a joke or two and just lightened the mood. He could even get Schilling, who couldn't smile if you paid him, to crack a few laughs. Besides Millar, he was the team clown. He would always talk to the employees too, just regular guys who happen to see him everyday. I can almost guarantee that Arod didnt give two shits about the employees who bust their balls everyday for crap money just to make sure he and his pinstripes can play their games. Ortiz was just the man on and off the field, but of course all that lesser stuff doesn't matter for the award.

 

Jayson Stark put it perfectly. It seems the MLB hardknocks changed around the rules this year just so Arod could win. I wonder how many figures that set back Steinbrenner.

 

And yes, Arod was good with the glove, but then again he is the master at the "glove" in bed with Jeter.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

As an employee, I never did like those damn sports writers. They thought they could go anywhere in the park because they are GOD and they know everything. Clearly, they don't know as much as they claim they do. They were never behind the scenes unless it was in the locker room. But nothing too important can be learned there.

 

MVP, to me, is the man who steps up on and off the field, as well. I worked the new underground batting tunnel this year which was behind the dugout. The days after blowouts or losses in general, most of the guys were down. Ortiz would walk in and everyone would be laughing. He always cracked a joke or two and just lightened the mood. He could even get Schilling, who couldn't smile if you paid him, to crack a few laughs. Besides Millar, he was the team clown. He would always talk to the employees too, just regular guys who happen to see him everyday. I can almost guarantee that Arod didnt give two shits about the employees who bust their balls everyday for crap money just to make sure he and his pinstripes can play their games. Ortiz was just the man on and off the field, but of course all that lesser stuff doesn't matter for the award.

 

Jayson Stark put it perfectly. It seems the MLB hardknocks changed around the rules this year just so Arod could win. I wonder how many figures that set back Steinbrenner.

 

And yes, Arod was good with the glove, but then again he is the master at the "glove" in bed with Jeter.

 

That might be the best post of this whole thread. Well done!

[Pinstripe_Pride]

Jayson Stark put it perfectly. It seems the MLB hardknocks changed around the rules this year just so Arod could win. I wonder how many figures that set back Steinbrenner.

 

Or just the most ridiculous. :dunno:

[He Hate Me]

And yes, Arod was good with the glove, but then again he is the master at the "glove" in bed with Jeter.

 

I wish you guys would make up your mind on how to insult ARod. Do you keep insisting that he and Jeter hate each other or do you go with the gay jokes. whatever the case, please come upw ith new material.

[ARod2212]

Yes! The MLB decided that statistics were an important factor in deciding MVP. Those bastards!!!

[Optimist]

Yes! The MLB decided that statistics were an important factor in deciding MVP. Those bastards!!!

 

But, but, but...Ortiz made his teammates laugh!

 

I think I know what he's doing this off-season...

 

http://www.nomaas.org/images/ortizcomedian.jpg

 

[ARod2212]

Honestly, how can the MVP award go to anybody but Jose Lima? He led the league in MGL (making guys laugh) and BP (butt pats). His personality rating for the season was a modern era record .489

[He Hate Me]

But, but, but...Ortiz made his teammates laugh!

 

 

 

Plus, he loves kittens.

 

http://www.icicom.up.pt/blog/take2/shrek-gato.jpg

[Moose]

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b352/UnderPressure213/Tiffany.jpg

 

Props to David. Nice.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

Honestly, how can the MVP award go to anybody but Jose Lima? He led the league in MGL (making guys laugh) and BP (butt pats). His personality rating for the season was a modern era record .489

:lol:

[Optimist]

Honestly, how can the MVP award go to anybody but Jose Lima? He led the league in MGL (making guys laugh) and BP (butt pats). His personality rating for the season was a modern era record .489

 

So?!?! Ortiz had more personality in clutch situations!

[ORS]

So?!?! Ortiz had more personality in clutch situations!

Don't worry, ARod would have had just as much personality late in the game if he didn't need some milk, cookies, and a nap after 6 innings of playing 3B.

[yankeessuck013]

Don't worry, ARod would have had just as much personality late in the game if he didn't need some milk, cookies, and a nap after 6 innings of playing 3B.

 

hahaha

 

so true, so true

[ARod2212]

hahaha

 

so true, so true

At least he plays the field?

[mosox]

I really have no problem with a-rod winning. The issue here, is why writers don't judge who is best for their position. The DH is a position created by MLB, not Ortiz or the Sox. It is a position, and old school sportswriters need to accept that fact. If you believe the argument that a third baseman does more work than a DH then consequently a catcher does more than a third baseman. I don't agree with discounting Ortiz from the MVP because he is a DH anymore than I agree with discounting Rivera from the Cy Young because he is a relief pitcher.