Red Sox going after Carlos Beltran?

[DirtDog]

for Manny Ramirez. Interesting. I'd do this trade. Very small blurb, but its there nonetheless.

[example1]

Huh. I don't know. If we have to lose Manny I guess Beltran is a guy I would be happy to take. He's young, he's got some pop, he can replace Damon in CF, he frees up 10 million to sign someone else with pop too (Huff?). I don't even think that the combination of Huff and Beltran equals Manny's offensive value, but its not bad. I like Manny being in the relative no-man's land of NY Met's baseball too. He can keep up with his antics and the sox won't have to deal with it. I can root for the mets pretty easily.

[example1]

Could we move Trot to left, resign Damon and put Beltran in the vast expanse of right field? Or JD in left? That 10 million could be used on Damon.

 

Damon

Renteria

Beltran

Ortiz

Huff/1B

Tek

Nixon

Youkilis

Pedroia

 

Every one of those players is squarely in their prime, except for the youngsters at the bottom of the lineup. I like that experience and don't see toomany ego's there... a lot of team players.

 

or something like that...

[YankeeDoodle]

Beltran freeing up money? Ha. Last I checked he's contract is still handled by Bora$$.

 

Highly doubt the Mets are going to jump off the Beltran train after just a year. Even with the whole Manny thing over the summer.

[DirtDog]

I don't like Damon. I'll be glad to see that d-bag leave. His mouth will run him out of Boston very soon this winter. Just watch.

[yankeessuck013]

Could we move Trot to left, resign Damon and put Beltran in the vast expanse of right field? Or JD in left? That 10 million could be used on Damon.

 

why? if we did resign johnny, we move him to left because its a shorter distance to the plate, and put beltran in center. and keep trot in right.

[MC Hammer]

Have you guys completely ignored everything Damon has said since the topic of his signing was first brought up this year. He's not going to be back soley based on the fact that he wants a 5-6 year contract. Forget about having him anywhere near Boston unless he comes down.

 

BTW if people complain that Manny is overpaid wait until they see Beltran. We'd basically be paying him Manny money to lead off. Totally not worth it.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

I'm pretty sure Beltran wouldn't be the lead off hitter but I also think he is a better hitter than he showed last season. I don't know what happened to him but throughout his career he has been better than that showing. Carlos Beltran oozes with talent...he has speed, a fantastic glove, switch hitter, hits for power, steals bases.....he can dominate. He seemed prepared to be one of the best players in baseball after the playoffs with the Astros then fell asleep. Another problem I have is the number of years left on his contract and how his money increases every season. We save some money this year but as time progresses we only save like 2 million a year. Thats not much of a change. It might be enough for a short term player to take over for money the next couple of season like Brian Giles who I keep going back to. If that were to occur we would then lack one key player...a power hitter which would be located at 1B in the form of either Konerko or Huff. By the way this is a better batting lineup than we had this season I just don't know if I see THIS many changes happening.

 

1. Dustin Pedroia ®

2. Carlos Beltran (S)

3. David Ortiz (L)

4. Paul Konerko ®

5. Brian Giles (L)

6. Edgar Renteria ®

7. Trot Nixon (L)

8. Kevin Youkilis ®

9. Jason Varitek (S)

[elsrbueno]

I've been inactive for a while (I'm sure tons of posters on here probably appreciate that) but I'll chime in on this one.

 

First things first: Trading Manny for Beltran would NOT save us money, it is actually a larger financial commitment in the long run because Beltran is promised more money and later in his contract he's due $18 mil/yr.

 

Second: While I believe Carlos Beltran is a better player than he showed in New York last year, he is overpaid. $15-18 million/year is a TON of money. That having been said, when healthy he's as good as Johnny Damon as far as tracking down balls and has a much better arm. His offensive numbers would probably get a boost playing half his games at Fenway.

 

Third: I'm only interested in bringing Johnny Damon back as a left fielder. His arm is too weak to play center IMO (see Bernie Williams) and he's not getting any stronger. If he sticks to his demand of 5-6 years, he'll be playing somewhere else next season.

 

Finally, my thoughts on trading Manny Ramirez:

 

1. Keep in mind that trading him WILL hurt David Ortiz' production. He will receive FAR fewer hittable pitches without Manny's protection.

 

2. The main reason for trading Manny Ramirez would be to free up money to improve other areas of the ballclub (mainly pitching).

 

3. The Red Sox had the best offense in baseball the past 3 years, so I'm not particularly worried about replacing Manny Ramirez' offensive production exactly if trading him improves other areas of ballclub. Keep in mind what the ultimate objective is: To be competitive and ideally win the World Series each year, and it's a proven fact that being the best offensive team in baseball (2005 Yankees and Red Sox) can keep you competitive in the regular season, but doesn't get you very far in the playoffs. The 2004 Red Sox were not an exception to the rule. They won because of good performances from Pedro Martinez, Curt Schilling, and Derek Lowe in the playoffs.

 

Chicago rode a mediocre offense and 4 great pitchers to the AL crown.

 

Anyone who reads my posts knows I was all about trading Ramirez in 2003, again after last season, and at the trading deadline this year. I've probably even been quoted as saying "Let Manny be Manny somewhere else." But if the Red Sox DO trade Manny, they've got a lot of work to do ahead of them as far as improving other areas of the ballclub in the process.

 

Without Manny, this offense takes a nosedive and is nowhere near it's production of the last 3 years, period. Replacing Manny's production is impossible (short of bringing in Guerrero, Rodriguez, or Pujols... which is impossible), I'll admit that. But my point is that to be a competitive team you don't HAVE to replace Manny's production... but you do have to improve the team's weaknesses.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

One thing I'll say about all this talk with Manny's production...You don't have to replace him with one player. You can improve on other hitters throughout the team and make a more competitive lineup. If you send Manny away for someone like Beltran then you take a hit obviously. However Beltran is a step up from Damon's defense and hitting. So there is one improvement. You can almost guarantee the Red Sox will get a better hitting 1st baseman and replace Manny in the field with an adequate batter.

 

The other thing about Ortiz production is that teams won't give him as many pitches to hit but you should recognize the hitters around him will get better pitches. If you stick Beltran in front of Ortiz he will do much better than he did with Floyd covering him. Not to mention someone like Huff or Konerko could be behind Ortiz. All of the players on the Red Sox can hit....so I'm not worried about scoring runs. Our defense could be greatly improved through a trade which in turn would help out our pitching considerably. My preference would be to trade Manny for a top pitcher but we are limited to teams we can trade with when it comes to a contract like Manny's.

[mosox]

I don't like this trade at all, mostly for reasons already mentioned here. His contract is expensive and he just didn't show anyone he's the kind of player he can be.

[yeszir]

elsrbueno is a genius. Everything he said is true.

[thewarriorscode12]

Manny is my favorite player in all of baseball, probably my overall favorite athelete. Despite the fact that he's a bit off in the head, the guy can produce like almost no one else in baseball. But despite the fact he's my favorite, if we can move him and get some guys that will really help us, then we need to do it. I like what schillingisthenatural was saying, makes sense.

[thewarriorscode12]

I don't like Damon. I'll be glad to see that d-bag leave. His mouth will run him out of Boston very soon this winter. Just watch.

He does have a bit of a mouth, but I have nothing against him when he runs his mouth. I'm used to atheletes doing that, I live in Minnesota, Randy Moss used to play here, I'm used to big mouths. What I don't like is Johnny Damon striking out with the bases juiced in game three of the ALDS. If he would have came through, we would've won that game, and who knows what we could have done after that. We could potentially be talking about a Red Sox-Houston World Series.

[User Name]

I hate this trade. Seeing how I live in the Mets' area, and I am kind of a Mets fan, I've seen a lot of Beltran, and I think he's a bit overrated. He's also paid about the same as Manny.

 

And Warriorscode, that is rediculous to blame it on Johnny Damon. I'm not happy with him for running his mouth, but how about if the 2 hitters before him got a hit? Or even the hitters in the bottom of the ninth?

[thewarriorscode12]

I hate this trade. Seeing how I live in the Mets' area, and I am kind of a Mets fan, I've seen a lot of Beltran, and I think he's a bit overrated. He's also paid about the same as Manny.

 

And Warriorscode, that is rediculous to blame it on Johnny Damon. I'm not happy with him for running his mouth, but how about if the 2 hitters before him got a hit? Or even the hitters in the bottom of the ninth?

I'm not blaming it all on him, but he's been talking about what a "tablesetter" he is all the time, so if you're going to talk it, walk it as well. Sure two guys got out before him, but how often to they trump how great they are?

[BoSox84]

You don't have to replace him with one player. You can improve on other hitters throughout the team and make a more competitive lineup.

 

Yea Ozzie Guillen, said something like would you rather have 2 players who hit 40 HR's or 5 that hit 20. Seems to work for them

[Ray10]

I dont want the Sox to unload Manny he's a very very valuable hitter to this team and without him we would be loosing alot. I would expect more than just Carlos Beltran if I was the Sox.

[jimmycarter05]

Yea Ozzie Guillen, said something like would you rather have 2 players who hit 40 HR's or 5 that hit 20. Seems to work for them

 

amen..ozzie gullien's approach to baseball is simple and it gets you places..the white soxs didn't get runs, they manufactured them...by saying that i mean that to get our runs(boston) we count on the long ball and hits getting people in...yes that works, but even if you have a great hitter it only works 3/10 times...that means 7 times you won't get that guy in...the white sox chose a guy(ponsenick)that has a high OBP and can steal...he gets on first, either steals or gets bunted over to 2nd, and if he steals gets bunted to third...now you have a guy that in on 3rd with one out...all you have to do now is hit the ball to the left side of the field, get a hit, or deep in the outfield...sounds easier than trying to score a guy from 2nd with 2 outs to me

[yankeessuck013]

This would be a really difficult decision for me if I were the owners or Theo. Beltran is about 5 years younger than Manny. His hitting could greatly improve by being at Fenway and with a hitting coach like Papa Jack. Defensively he would be better. I really, really like Manny, but I think I might at least be willing to take a really close look at the numbers - objectively. There is no doubt in my mind that Pedro is pushing for Manny to join him in NY. This deal just might get done.

 

especially since the red sox proposed it.

[MC Hammer]

I don't understand all this talk of "replacing" Manny. He cannot be replaced. When Papi gets to the plate pitchers/catchers/managers have to decide; face the most dangerous hitter in baseball, or a HOFer, maybe the second most dangerous hitter in baseball. If you take Manny out of that equation then the decision is much easier. Papi, or Konerko ... come on now. I know this offense is great, but what Manny brings in presence alone cannot be replaced.

[ORS]

amen..ozzie gullien's approach to baseball is simple and it gets you places..the white soxs didn't get runs, they manufactured them...by saying that i mean that to get our runs(boston) we count on the long ball and hits getting people in...yes that works, but even if you have a great hitter it only works 3/10 times...that means 7 times you won't get that guy in...the white sox chose a guy(ponsenick)that has a high OBP and can steal...he gets on first, either steals or gets bunted over to 2nd, and if he steals gets bunted to third...now you have a guy that in on 3rd with one out...all you have to do now is hit the ball to the left side of the field, get a hit, or deep in the outfield...sounds easier than trying to score a guy from 2nd with 2 outs to me

We scored 910 runs to their 741. They hit 200 HR to our 199, meaning a greater portion of their offense was dependent on the long ball. We walked over 200 more times than they did and hit over 100 more extra base hits. Our offensive strategy is working fine. We just need better pitching to increase the runs scored to runs allowed differential, and we will win more games. If we get more aggressive at the plate and on the basepaths, then we will score less runs (history proves this), and the pitching will have to get that much better.

[jimmycarter05]

We scored 910 runs to their 741. They hit 200 HR to our 199, meaning a greater portion of their offense was dependent on the long ball. We walked over 200 more times than they did and hit over 100 more extra base hits. Our offensive strategy is working fine. We just need better pitching to increase the runs scored to runs allowed differential, and we will win more games. If we get more aggressive at the plate and on the basepaths, then we will score less runs (history proves this), and the pitching will have to get that much better.

 

even the best hitters only get hits 3/10 times, and its much easier if all you have to do is hit a ball to the left side, get a hit, or hit one deep to the warning track...thats about a 6 or 7 out of 10 chance

[ORS]

even the best hitters only get hits 3/10 times, and its much easier if all you have to do is hit a ball to the left side, get a hit, or hit one deep to the warning track...thats about a 6 or 7 out of 10 chance

It's not about the .300 success rate of the best hitters. Aggressive teams (or small-ball) teams waste outs moving runners over and getting caught on the basepaths. You only get 27 outs per game. That is why teams like the Sox and Yankees score more runs every year than teams like Chicago. I can't believe you are trying to argue that a system that scored 741 runs is better than a system that scored 910.

[thewarriorscode12]

I don't understand all this talk of "replacing" Manny. He cannot be replaced. When Papi gets to the plate pitchers/catchers/managers have to decide; face the most dangerous hitter in baseball, or a HOFer, maybe the second most dangerous hitter in baseball. If you take Manny out of that equation then the decision is much easier. Papi, or Konerko ... come on now. I know this offense is great, but what Manny brings in presence alone cannot be replaced.

Thank you, that was by far the best commentary in this thread. I hadn't even thought of that myself. We need to keep Batman and Robin together as long as possible. What we should be focusing on is getting more arms in the starting rotation and the bullpen. The offense is still explosive, and we shouldn't really be tinkering with it.

[thewarriorscode12]

even the best hitters only get hits 3/10 times, and its much easier if all you have to do is hit a ball to the left side, get a hit, or hit one deep to the warning track...thats about a 6 or 7 out of 10 chance

Small ball is great for certain teams. It works for the Minnesota Twins. But the Red Sox are not a team built to play small ball. You can't drive your Corvette like a semi-truck. We have an offense that likes to score often and in bunches, why change that?

[jimmycarter05]

Small ball is great for certain teams. It works for the Minnesota Twins. But the Red Sox are not a team built to play small ball. You can't drive your Corvette like a semi-truck. We have an offense that likes to score often and in bunches, why change that?

 

 

i only think we should go to small ball if we trade manny

[thewarriorscode12]

i only think we should go to small ball if we trade manny

Well, if we trade Manny, we'd have to pretty much. Because we couldn't play big ball if we take out 40+ HRs and 130+ RBIs, not to mention Manny is Ortiz's protection. Manny is our most important hitter bar none.

[ARod2212]

Do this trade, I love it.

[User Name]

Would we be gaining or losing money if we made the trade? I would only do it if it would free up a little money.