Theo Epstein Resigns as GM (merged threads)

[riverside sluggers]

Im not taking anything away from Theo, who has done a magnificent job up there, but I have to believe that Cashman is the better GM just because he has put together some deals over the years that just make you say "WOW"...

 

so what about the deal done for the then minnesota twins Ortiz (though not wow at the time), who in just over a season after being acquired became one of, if not the most feared hitter in baseball--- A certain wow deal was to bring Curt Schilling to Voston, it was meant to bring the Sox to the Series... and yeah he kind of delivered what Theo signed him for. Another thing is that instead of trading away prospects like candy, Theo has guarded them as untouchables and with his drafting choices,the Red Sox farm market is clearly in the top 5.

 

ooh wow you got arod for $200+million who cant do anything when it comes to the playoffs. randy johnson has been erratic since he got to New York, sometimes he will be good and other share of time well... he gets his fair share of boos.

 

Theo doesnt have to deal with everything that Cashman deals with...whatever though, just my opinion

 

its been noted many times Larry Lucchino and Theo do not get along that well

[He Hate Me]

so what about the deal done for the then minnesota twins Ortiz (though not wow at the time), who in just over a season after being acquired became one of, if not the most feared hitter in baseball---The deal to bring Curt Schilling was the biggest for the Sox in awhile, it was meant to bring the Sox to the Series... and yeah he kind of delivered what Theo signed him for. Another thing is that instead of trading away prospects like candy, Theo has guarded them as untouchables and with his drafting choices,the Red Sox farm market is clearly in the top 5.

 

ooh wow you got arod for $200+million who cant do anything when it comes to the playoffs. randy johnson has been erratic since he got to New York, sometimes he will be good other share of time well... he gets his fair share of boos.

 

http://www.jockbio.com/Bios/Ortiz/Ortiz_bio.html

 

credit the Ortiz signing to Martinez's pull on the team. For $1.25 million, you can't say Theo had any sort of idea Ortiz would turn out like this.

 

As for the ARod deal, Theo was trying to get him too, only your owners were too cheap to cough up the extra dough. You can't really use this as a pro-Theo argument.

 

Good to hear about your "excellent" farm system. Now name me two key players on last year's championship team who came up from the farm system. Know who was the best prospect last year? BJ Upton, and where is he now? Having the best farm system is like having the best looking goldfish. You have to see how they do in the pirahanna tank before you annoint them to be anything.

 

On the Schilling trade, that was a simple case of the DBacks being unreasonable with the Yankees as payback for the David Wells signing from prior. Cashman offered the superior package, but the DBacks took the Red Sox inferior offer instead out of spite towards the Yankees.

[riverside sluggers]

As for the ARod deal, Theo was trying to get him too, only your owners were too cheap to cough up the extra dough. You can't really use this as a pro-Theo argument.

 

i never wanted arod, (2) hes an ******* (3) he chokes when it comes to the playoffs, 2004 ALCS to 05 ALDS batted .133, hail the conquering mvp my ass. Im sorry but Arod is not worth over $200 million.

 

On the Schilling trade, that was a simple case of the DBacks being unreasonable with the Yankees as payback for the David Wells signing from prior. Cashman offered the superior package, but the DBacks took the Red Sox inferior offer instead out of spite towards the Yankees.

 

omg dude shut the hell up, Schilling is a 10-5 guy which meant he could void any trades he didnt like, going to the Yankees was big on his no list. I listed it because it was a wow deal for us Sox fans.

 

Good to hear about your "excellent" farm system. Now name me two key players on last year's championship team who came up from the farm system. Know who was the best prospect last year? BJ Upton, and where is he now? Having the best farm system is like having the best looking goldfish. You have to see how they do in the pirahanna tank before you annoint them to be anything.

 

First of all i didnt ever say its been a great farm system for many years, it started to come around when Theo came on board and made all the right decisions and drafts starting in 2003, which means none of the prospects yet were ready to test their feet.

 

anyways... this season, need i say Papelbon? I will give all the stats that you want, because this kid will be the future ace of the team. And he didnt stumble when it came down to the stretch.

And yes we do have an excellent farm system. Lester and Papelbon will be what Schil and Pedro were for the Sox. Anibel Sanchez should be up in the bigs by 2007. I could go on and on why Im proud of the up and coming players.

[He Hate Me]

i never wanted arod, (2) hes an ******* (3) he chokes when it comes to the playoffs, 2004 ALCS to 05 ALDS batted .133, hail the conquering mvp my ass. Im sorry but Arod is not worth over $200 million.

 

The discussion isn't about what you want, it's what Theo wanted, since we're arguing the merits of Theo's abilities compared to Cashman's. And the Yankees are paying him about $16 million a season, since the Rangers gave about $65 million in the trade.

 

 

omg dude shut the hell up, Schilling is a 10-5 guy which meant he could void any trades he didnt like, going to the Yankees was big on his no list. I listed it because it was a wow deal for us Sox fans.

 

http://www.recordonline.com/archive/2003/11/30/dbcol30w.htm

 

The team that Schilling didn't want to goto was the Red Sox. Theo had that dinner with him to convince him to accept the trade.

 

Again, it was only a wow deal because of other factors, namely the hardheadedness of the DBacks front office. Theo's "skills" had nothing to do with convincing the DBacks to take the inferior offer.

 

 

need i say Papelbon? I will give all the stats that you want, because this kid will be the future ace of the team. And he didnt stumble when it came down to the stretch.

And yes we do have an excellent farm system. Lester and Papelbon will be what Schil and Pedro were for the Sox. Anibel Sanchez should be up in the bigs by 2007. I could go on and on why Im proud of the up and coming players.

 

Robinson Cano is a candidate for the ROY, plus he looked really good in the postseason. And let's wait for a couple of years before annointing Lester and Papelbon as the next Schiiling and Pedro. For a Red Sox fan, you sure aren't very aware of your own team's recent history and lack of dependence on its farm system. Our two teams have always had similar philosophies, it just happens that our owner spends more money than yours.

[MC Hammer]

And let's wait for a couple of years before annointing Lester and Papelbon as the next Schiiling and Pedro.

Never did we draw any comparisons between them.

[riverside sluggers]

For a Red Sox fan, you sure aren't very aware of your own team's history and lack of dependence on its farm system. Our two teams have always had similar philosophies, it just happens that our owner spends more money than yours.

 

yes a $200 million roster makes it to the world series? wait one second no it does not. Carl Pavano and Jaret Wright big blockbuster deals I must say.

 

Actually I am aware of my team's history, things are about to change because with the farm system the Sox have, the prospects will be coming through the Fenway Park's doors.

 

And let's wait for a couple of years before annointing Lester and Papelbon as the next Schiiling and Pedro.

 

i was implying with ways looking like they are now, years down the road lester and paps will be at the top of their game, like Pedro and Schil were.

[He Hate Me]

Never did we draw any comparisons between them.

 

Lester and Papelbon will be what Schil and Pedro were for the Sox

[MC Hammer]

I stand corrected ... but I disagree

[He Hate Me]

yes a $200 million roster makes it to the world series? wait one second no it does not. Carl Pavano and Jaret Wright big blockbuster deals I must say.

 

Actually I am aware of my team's history, things are about to change because with the farm system the Sox have, the prospects will be coming through the Fenway Park's doors.

 

I'm not sure why you keep bringing up the $200 million. We're discussing Theo's skills here, the Yankees payroll doesn't have any relevance. And you may think your team willl rely more on its farm, but you won't be able to say for sure for another couple of years. If Santanna suddenly decides he wants out, or Halladay, I can guarantee you that your propsects will be available. Thats just the way it is with our teams, we're always in a win now situation, propsects are expendable if it can help us increase our chances for a championship. You don't think Theo would get killed if he decides to kill a Santanna deal because he doesn't want to give up Papelbon?

[riverside sluggers]

You don't think Theo would get killed if he decides to kill a Santanna deal because he doesn't want to give up Papelbon?

 

umm Id stand by his decision on that. Papelbon is untouchable, no such trade Sox would ever make or ever consider. ive heard many times Sox FO's plans have papelbon a big part of the 2006 rotation. regardless if its for santana or whoever, Paps is staying in boston.

[Sox Fan on Cape]

I'm not sure why you keep bringing up the $200 million. We're discussing Theo's skills here, the Yankees payroll doesn't have any relevance. And you may think your team willl rely more on its farm, but you won't be able to say for sure for another couple of years. If Santanna suddenly decides he wants out, or Halladay, I can guarantee you that your propsects will be available. Thats just the way it is with our teams, we're always in a win now situation, propsects are expendable if it can help us increase our chances for a championship. You don't think Theo would get killed if he decides to kill a Santanna deal because he doesn't want to give up Papelbon?

Exactly what backround and experience do you have to skeak for what Theo and Red Sox fans will do ? This thread is about Theo and his negotions with the Red Sox. It doesn't have a damn thing to do with the Yankees.

[He Hate Me]

Exactly what backround and experience do you have to skeak for what Theo and Red Sox fans will do ? This thread is about Theo and his negotions with the Red Sox. It doesn't have a damn thing to do with the Yankees.

 

I think most Red Sox fans knows as much about the Yankees as we do about your team. You talk about the Red Sox, you gonna talk about the Yankees, thats the way it is in our self-absorbed East Coast world.

[Sox Fan on Cape]

I think most Red Sox fans knows as much about the Yankees as we do about your team. You talk about the Red Sox, you gonna talk about the Yankees, thats the way it is in our self-absorbed East Coast world.

Understand.

[ORS]

I'm very curious He-Hate-Me, how does the ARod deal reflect more positively on Cashman than Epstein? The deal was essentially a salary dump. If Boston's ownership is willing to pay his full salary, then the deal is done, but that decision doesn't rest on the GM's shoulders. Ownership OK's that kind of money, nobody else.

[Cityofchampions33]

Even IF Cashman is better than Theo, Theo is THE youngest GM in MLB. He only has 2 ful years of GM experience, unlike Cashman, and he's already caught up to, if not surpassed Cashman, give him more experience he'll blow Cashy away.

[riverside sluggers]

It's been speculated that the Red Sox are under some pressure from commissioner Bud Selig not to upset the GM pay scale with their offers to Epstein.

 

i cant wait to praise the day baseball gets a new commisioner. if the above is true, this assinine thing goes along with forcing the astros to have their roof open, no reason for him to meddle. Uh-oh, the Sox are offering Theo $1.2 million a season.

 

Bud Selig would you look around? yes I know its hard for you to do so... Brian Cashman has been signed to a contract of 3 seasons for $5-8 million. The Braves GM will be paid 1.7 million in 2006. And even the Sox in 02 had offered former GM a 5 season deal worth $12.5 million. So I dont see the big deal why he needs to but in where he's not wanted.

[He Hate Me]

I'm very curious He-Hate-Me, how does the ARod deal reflect more positively on Cashman than Epstein? The deal was essentially a salary dump. If Boston's ownership is willing to pay his full salary, then the deal is done, but that decision doesn't rest on the GM's shoulders. Ownership OK's that kind of money, nobody else.

 

no, you misunderstood me. I wasnt trying to make the case that the Arod deal was a wow deal for Cashman. It was argued that ARod's acquisition was not a good thing and that therefore that made Cashman a worse GM than Theo. My point was that both Theo and Cash were trying to get Arod, both made the same decision to pursue him. That's why you couldn't use the ARod deal as an example if you tried to say one was better than the other

[He Hate Me]

Even IF Cashman is better than Theo, Theo is THE youngest GM in MLB. He only has 2 ful years of GM experience, unlike Cashman, and he's already caught up to, if not surpassed Cashman, give him more experience he'll blow Cashy away.

 

Cashman won 3 world series in a row starting out.

[Ray10]

He did reject the 3 year contract he was offered but im sure he won't be going anywhere. He's most likely looking for more money which the Sox should give him. He's worth every cent that he wants.

[He Hate Me]

btw, i agree that Theo should get more money. Experience has nothing to do with it when u compare him to the previous moron running the show in Boston. I simply disagree with the notion that he is better than Cashman

[Sox Fan on Cape]

It looks like Theo's staying :

 

An official announcement is not likely to be forthcoming -- Major League Baseball frowns upon teams conducting other business publicly during the World Series -- but Theo Epstein was expected to decide today whether to accept a new deal to remain as general manager of the Red Sox.

 

A source close to negotiations had said Tuesday night that the matter would be resolved ''either way in the next 24 to 48 hours."

 

Yesterday, one of Epstein's peers, Brian Cashman, who was sorely tempted to leave the Yankees after eight years working under George Steinbrenner, told an executive with another major league club that he planned to stay with the Yankees. Cashman accepted a three-year deal for just under $6 million, which would place him in the highest echelon of general managers' salaries.

 

Dave Dombrowski of the Detroit Tigers is paid a reported $2 million a year, but Dombrowski is also president of the club. Atlanta GM John Schuerholz is paid $1.6 million a year, while Billy Beane of the Oakland Athletics is reported to have a salary in the $1 million-plus range, but has an ownership stake in the club that raises the value of the contract considerably.

 

On Tuesday, Red Sox CEO Larry Lucchino met with Epstein and presented him a three-year offer at $1.2 million a year, according to a major league executive with knowledge of the negotiations. Epstein, who was paid $350,000 in the last year of a three-year deal that expires Monday, is believed to be seeking $1.5 million annually. That would seem to leave room for a compromise relatively easy to achieve, but there are other issues that could get in the way of a settlement.

 

Source : http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2005/10/27/decision_is_expected_today_as_epstein_mulls_offer/

 

Also last night on Fox Sports, Butch Stern stated that, " A source close to the negotiations said that Theo is expected to sign for about 1.4 Mil per year with an annoucement today or tommorrow ".

[riverside sluggers]

Also last night on Fox Sports, Butch Stern stated that, " A source close to the negotiations said that Theo is expected to sign for about 1.4 Mil per year with an annoucement today or tommorrow ".

 

oh thank the lord once i see it in black and white theo is here to stay. get this deal done with ASAP, and lets get onto the next big deals. try to resign Johnny if he cooperates, and a 1st baseman trade deal.

[Sox Fan on Cape]

Amen to that !

[He Hate Me]

announcements should be coming today or tomorrow since the Series is over.

[26 to 6]

I'm not sure why you keep bringing up the $200 million.

Because thats all they have on us, the fact that we had a $200 mil payroll and didnt make it to the series...btu then again, neither did they. They act like theyre some small market team competing with 200mil. They seem to forget they have the second largest payroll.

 

I will admit that the last time I really heard about George making the decisions was with the Sheffield/Vlad thing, but I'm willing to bet he makes his fair share of decisions.

Last notable was the signings of Tony Womack and Jaret Wright (that wasnt Cashman's idea, the scouts said that he was very impressive and that we should sign him, so George jumped on board)...but I get your point

 

ooh wow you got arod for $200+million who cant do anything when it comes to the playoffs. randy johnson has been erratic since he got to New York, sometimes he will be good and other share of time well... he gets his fair share of boos.

I cant stand fans like you. You just revealed your own ignorance. Brian Cashman has made deals before the 2004 season just to let you know. You guys seem to only pay attention to what has happened 2003 and beyond (seems to be when the Sox really hit the national spotlight...frontrunners are we?). Cashman has been the GM since 1998, and been in the organization for many years before that. I said he has made deals throughout the years that make you say WOW, not deals in the last 2 years that make you say WOW.

 

Please name one move that made me, or anyone else, say WOW.

 

Example A) David Justice--That was a magnificent trade made, and without the addition of Justice, we dont win the 2000 World Series, let alone the pennant.

 

Example B ) Roger Clemens--aquiring Clemens in 1999 would be like aquiring Pujols today. Yes, I know im comparing a pitcher and a hitter, but its the best comparrison because of the stature of the player. Clemens was coming off 2 Cy Youngs in a row and was considered the best pitcher in the game at that point.

 

Example C) A-Rod--yes, I know you guys are gonna jump on me about the money thing, but seriously...if you look at the details of this trade, all of the money that he had deffered and all of the money he had the Rangers pick up, and how fast he had that deal worked out, it was a magnificent job by Brian Cashman, and nobody can deny that (though im sure all of you guys will try).

 

Example D) Chuck Knoblauch--no, his career didnt turn out the way we would have hoped, but in case you guys who know nothing about baseball pre-2003 (*cough* riverside *cough*) didnt know, because you only care about the game when your team is a national commodity, Chuck Knoblauch was the best leadoff hitter in the game at that point, possibly the best second basemen, and was on the fast track to Cooperstown. Obviously it didnt all work out, but it was a great trade as Knobby wasmkey for us for so many years.

 

Those are just a few...I could name several others.

 

Exactly what backround and experience do you have to skeak for what Theo and Red Sox fans will do ? This thread is about Theo and his negotions with the Red Sox. It doesn't have a damn thing to do with the Yankees.

with all due respect, I think we have a right to come and defend our GM when he is being bashed by you guys...regardless of if this thread has a damn thing to do with the Yankees or not.

 

Theo is THE youngest GM in MLB. He only has 2 ful years of GM experience

exactly...nobody can take away the fact that Theo is a great gm, especially considering hwo young he is and his limited experience. In my point, I was just stating that he should get a few more years under his belt before he feels he deserves to be the highest paid GM.

 

For instance, if you're on a job for say 8 years or something, and some new guy walks in, gets all the fringe benefits, gets all the salary raises, etc.. just after 2 years, you're going to be pissed because he pretty much just broke into the business. Let Theo get his feet a little but more wet before we anoint him Branch Rickey.

 

Cashman won 3 world series in a row starting out

excellent point...and notice how none of them argued with it after you said that.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Because thats all they have on us, the fact that we had a $200 mil payroll and didnt make it to the series...btu then again, neither did they. They act like theyre some small market team competing with 200mil. They seem to forget they have the second largest payroll.

 

First off you can say all you want about our payroll being the second largest in baseball....the New York Yankees spent $84,801,692 more than the Red Sox. 20 team....thats right 20 teams in baseball had less money invested in there MLB team than that extra $84 million. So don't attempt to defend the money the Yankees throw around cause its gotten to a rediculous level. If it was around $150 million then I would still make fun of you....but it wouldn't be that bad.

 

I cant stand fans like you. You just revealed your own ignorance. Brian Cashman has made deals before the 2004 season just to let you know. You guys seem to only pay attention to what has happened 2003 and beyond (seems to be when the Sox really hit the national spotlight...frontrunners are we?). Cashman has been the GM since 1998, and been in the organization for many years before that. I said he has made deals throughout the years that make you say WOW, not deals in the last 2 years that make you say WOW.

 

This all goes back to money. Do you have any idea how awesome my baseball teams are in MVP 2005 for xbox. They are so good cause I don't have a budget. If I was the GM of the Yankees I could do almost anything I wanted and I certainly wouldn't have invested in old men like Randy Johnson, Tony Womack, Tino Martinez, Ruben Sierra, Gary Sheffield....then gone out and traded for a self centered "me first" attitude Alex Rodriguez. Are you aware a majority of the NY Yankees do not like him. They have developed a horrible club house where there top starting pitcher can't stand there top catcher. Instead of the Yankees siding with the guy who has been on the team durring there World Series victories...they side with Johnson...PUKE!

 

...has Brian Cashman made some good moves?? Sure...they only make about 50 transactions a season...how many starting pitchers and relievers did he have to go through to get it right this season??? Eventually...odds are...he will get one right...but WOW what a mess it makes

[ORS]

Because thats all they have on us, the fact that we had a $200 mil payroll and didnt make it to the series...btu then again, neither did they. They act like theyre some small market team competing with 200mil. They seem to forget they have the second largest payroll.

I love how Yankee fans nonchalantly say, "you guys seem to forget that you have the 2nd highest payroll", without any mention of the magnitude of the difference between the two. The Yankees spent $80+M more than the Red Sox. Twenty, yes 20, teams spent less than the difference (including the WS Champ White Sox and runner-up Astros).

 

Example C) A-Rod--yes, I know you guys are gonna jump on me about the money thing, but seriously...if you look at the details of this trade, all of the money that he had deffered and all of the money he had the Rangers pick up, and how fast he had that deal worked out, it was a magnificent job by Brian Cashman, and nobody can deny that

 

I really fail to see how this is such a "WOW" job by Cashman, but Theo gets no credit for the job he did in ARod talks. He got ARod to agree to more deferments and a salary cut in exchange for more marketing rights and eligibility to be a FA after 2005. If the union doesn't intercede, the deal was done.

 

IMO, neither of these guys deserves much credit for ARod because Texas was desperate to get rid of his contract and was accepting pennies on the dollar.

 

(though im sure all of you guys will try).

Enough with the innocent victim routine. Your name (26 to 6) and the Clemens quote in your sig ("It was a blessing" ~ about leaving Boston) are direct insults to Sox fans, so just by being here you are being confrontational.

[Sox Fan on Cape]

26 to 6, chill out. My quote was directed to He Hate Me and we settled that. The point is that both Cashman and Theo will probably sign today or tommorrow with significant increases in salary. They'll both be paid as top GM's which they are. So let's see what each can pull off during this off season, and judge the results by the up coming regular season and the play-offs.

[riverside sluggers]

but in case you guys who know nothing about baseball pre-2003 (*cough* riverside *cough*)

 

hey kids heres how to be immature (*cough* try me *cough*)

 

anyways... whatever you say doesnt defend how a $200 million team was beaten up and tired by the ALDS. the big players with big contracts they have recently signed didnt live up to anything in the playoffs or even get that far (Johnson, Arod, Wright, Pavano). Those 4 players combined in 2005 had made $58 million.

 

no doubt Chashman is a great GM but in the end all the money in the world wont buy you teamwork and championships...

 

the reason why the yankees had won those 4 world series from 96 to 2000 was because they had a great farm system producing up and coming solid ballplayers, along with a healthy rotation. as time went on the yankees tossed out their prospects like candy for aging all star players who are on the wrong side of 30.

[He Hate Me]

I don't disagree with your comments riverside. However, Cashman was instrumental in securing the surrounding pieces to those products of our farm system. Bernie, Mo, Derek, Andy and Jorge were only five people from a 25 man multi-championship roster that Cashman was responsible for filling up.

 

This year we stunk it up in the playoffs because some moves didn't work out. In the last 9 years, we've won been to the World Series 6 times. Seems like a pretty good accomplishment to me. Yeah we have the money, but like you pointed out in your own post, money doesn't buy championships, or we woudla won this year. =T