Arroyo Thread

[americanoutlaw]

http://www.projo.com/redsox/content/projo_20061011_11rsoxjo.31c8562.html

[rician blast]

pretty forgiving guy, IMO, after the FO fkd him.

 

oh yeah, and the FO fkd the fans with that trade.

 

and another thing, the FO fkd the team with that trade.

[SCM33]

pretty forgiving guy, IMO, after the FO fkd him.

 

oh yeah, and the FO fkd the fans with that trade.

 

and another thing, the FO fkd the team with that trade.

 

Sigh.....here we go again, blaming the season on a #5/Swing relief type guy.

[Papelbon58]

I want Bronson back, no doubt. He was a good clubhouse guy and solid pitcher. Bring him back

[EvilDonut]

I always liked Arroyo, He had such pretty hair. Plus who could forget the A-rod Bronson incident. I think that showed A-rods true colors.

[Anuj09]

I always liked Arroyo' date=' He had such pretty hair. Plus who could forget the A-rod Bronson incident. I think that showed A-rods true colors.[/quote']

 

http://njctech.com/njc/pub/sox/ArodPursePink.jpg

 

sure did

i think 'true colors' is a good phrase

[Cityofchampions33]

Idk if I'd want him in 08, because though he is young he's not THAT young, he'll be 30+ that offseason. But hey, who knows where time will take us.

[Papelbon58]

also remember that he was the guy who beamed A-Rod to start the season turning brawl

[castigs850]

i think youve gone a little fruity mr crunchy because there is no way trading your #5 starter is like trading bagwell, and we still dont know about wily mo he has plenty of time to turn into something great

 

i miss arroyo but that trade doesnt even deserve to bring bagwell into the conversation nevermind jesus

[example1]

I would take Arroyo back in a heart beat. Doug Miribelli trade anyone? I see that type of thing happening. Mike Lowell + Salary for Arroyo? I'd do it.

[RedSoxRooter]

pretty forgiving guy, IMO, after the FO fkd him.

 

oh yeah, and the FO fkd the fans with that trade.

 

and another thing, the FO fkd the team with that trade.

 

And if you think about it the FO just fkn killed Corey Lidle because they didn't make the Abreu/Lidle trade. If he were already out of the playoffs and back in California today he wouldn't have died. Think about that while eating your puffs. Crazy stuff!

[a700hitter]

--Jef Bagwell is a future HOF who banged out around 450 Homeruns

--Arroyo is an All-Star & possible Cy Young candidate in the NL, but in Boston he's a 5th starter against the AL lineups

In 2006 rotation he would have been our #3 starter. He would have won between 10-15 games with a 4.25-4.50 ERA. Thatis what he was when he left the AL and there's no reason to believe that he wouldn't have remained at that level.

[elsrbueno]

In 2006 rotation he would have been our #3 starter. He would have won between 10-15 games with a 4.25-4.50 ERA. Thatis what he was when he left the AL and there's no reason to believe that he wouldn't have remained at that level.

 

Bronson Arroyo was a perfect back end of the rotation starter in Boston. He got off to an amazing start in Cincy, but came back to earth mid-season. He is what he is, and he's a very valuable piece to a winning team because he's durable, he eats innings, and he gives you a chance to win every time out.

 

I don't disagree with the trade the Sox made EVEN NOW because if you get the chance to trade a #4 or #5 starter for a potential impact everyday player (Remember Arroyo's 29 and Pena's 24) you do it. Every time you do it.

 

I think the fact that Bronson would be a #3 on our staff this year is more a reflection on out staff than it is on Bronson. That having been said, I'd take him back in a heartbeat because he's a tremendous value at his salary and his current ability level and contract length.

 

The pitching-crazed Wayne Krivsky won't give him up easily though.

[Mr Crunchy]

i think youve gone a little fruity mr crunchy because there is no way trading your #5 starter is like trading bagwell, and we still dont know about wily mo he has plenty of time to turn into something great

 

i miss arroyo but that trade doesnt even deserve to bring bagwell into the conversation nevermind jesus

 

i said the trade was the worst deal we made since bagwell for larry anderson

i didnt compare arroyo to bagwell if you read what i wrote

 

perhaps you dispute this??

from a competetive standpoint nothing f***ed the sox worse than their #5 starters this year

nothing

shall we go down the list of arroyos replacements,

their cost to the team in bullpen innings,salary and out and out despair??

 

cant wait to see lenny dinardo after the 4month long conditioning of his arm

damn

did someone else pick up jj johnson??

kason gabbard will have an era of 3.90 with 15-18 wins this year

dee snyder will surely pitch 200 innings with 180ks and 15 wins

you heard it here 1st...

 

and they wonder why i cry out the Lords name every time this subject comes up

[rician blast]

Sigh.....here we go again' date=' blaming the season on a #5/Swing relief type guy.[/quote']

 

 

SCM, nothing personal, but some thoughts:

 

(1) did I claim the the season was lost due to this trade? re-read, please.

 

(2) Arroyo was better than a #5/swing relief guy as you classify him. He was pitcher with reasonable success the last two years who should have been viewed by the FO and Tito as a guy with upside, IMO.

 

(3) the subject keeps getting brought up by folks other than me, so apparently its still relevant...your frustration with the issue can be easily dealt with by not reading any Arroyo-related threads or posts...perhaps that's the avenue you should travel.

[castigs850]

Bronson Arroyo was a perfect back end of the rotation starter in Boston. He got off to an amazing start in Cincy, but came back to earth mid-season. He is what he is, and he's a very valuable piece to a winning team because he's durable, he eats innings, and he gives you a chance to win every time out.

 

I don't disagree with the trade the Sox made EVEN NOW because if you get the chance to trade a #4 or #5 starter for a potential impact everyday player (Remember Arroyo's 29 and Pena's 24) you do it. Every time you do it.

 

I think the fact that Bronson would be a #3 on our staff this year is more a reflection on out staff than it is on Bronson. That having been said, I'd take him back in a heartbeat because he's a tremendous value at his salary and his current ability level and contract length.

 

The pitching-crazed Wayne Krivsky won't give him up easily though.

 

i reread your post and your right, you didnt compare bronson to bagwell but you did compare the trades. so before you compare a trade that has allowed a guys whole career to be played to one that has been only one year lets give this one that same oppurtunity because IMO wily mo could be the huge star bagwell is somewhere down the line (then again i could just be being blinded by the bs the FO feeds us about everyone we get). also the 5th starter did hurt us this year but lets not talk about bronson like he would have saved our season because im pretty sure we all know that he isnt quite that type of pitcher

[Mr Crunchy]

point taken and its certainly valid

however

did you know if wily mo had 600abs with his pace of strikeouts would shatter the modern record??

[castigs850]

no i didnt know that, something the redsox could definately do without

[CrespoBlows]

What do you mean by "shatter?" At the very worst, he'd tie the K record.

[Mr Crunchy]

this was his m/o in cinci too

and the reason why ive had s*** pains and heartburn since they moved him

 

wily has power

lots of it and from time to time shows forms of brilliance

 

then he'll K on 3 straight pitches out of the strike zone

 

hes young

arroyos young

 

im hoping wily mo can step into right field and hit 35/110 and .295 and keep his Ks under 150

 

however

hope is what we had for a pitching staff this year and reason#1 why we were out of it on 8/15

[Mr Crunchy]

im not strong in math but i have a calculator at my desk

276abs=90ks=11hrs/42rbi

double that

552abs 180ks or 3.06 per ab

add 48 abs we get 16 more ks or

196 total

 

whats rob deeres record?

185-186 i think??

 

we got a guy who would hit 26 hrs with 90rbi and K 200xs a season

instead of a 220 inning 4.5 era pitcher who loved it here and took the short money to stay

 

then he got f***ed to tears by the front office

then the fans got f***ed to death by the#5 starters who stunk like an august afternoon at the haymarket square fish stalls

 

if you consider the taxing on the bullpen due to the #5 guys inadequacies you may indeed see my point

from a competetive standpoint

the sox f***ed themselves by moving a decent pitcher for a K machine with power and the all too familiar ring of ""upside""

[CrespoBlows]

im not strong in math but i have a calculator at my desk

276abs=90ks=11hrs/42rbi

double that

552abs 180ks or 3.06 per ab

add 48 abs we get 16 more ks or

196 total

 

Adam Dunn holds the record with 195.

[castigs850]

and im pretty sure adam dunn has lowered his K total signifacantly the past two years so maybe, given time to mature, WMP will do the same, or even better he can perfect the art of wild swinging and become our very own Vlad lol

[a700hitter]

and im pretty sure adam dunn has lowered his K total signifacantly the past two years so maybe' date=' given time to mature, WMP will do the same, or even better he can perfect the art of wild swinging and become our very own Vlad lol[/quote']Dunn's 194 k's in 2006 is essentially what it was in 2004, while his BA has fallen from .266 to .234 and his OBP has fallen from .388 to .365. He's not getting any better in this aspect. I have absolutely no reason to think WMP will improve his K ratio.

[rician blast]

and im pretty sure adam dunn has lowered his K total signifacantly the past two years so maybe' date=' [b']given time to mature[/b], WMP will do the same, or even better he can perfect the art of wild swinging and become our very own Vlad lol

 

therein lies the rub...

 

you have a 29 y.o. pitcher who can give ya 200 innings NOW and a 4.50 era NOW and decent K's NOW and perhaps could win 15 games with the Sox NOW, all at a bargain price cuz he loves pitching in Boston....

 

but you move him for a 24 y.o. guy who MIGHT provide some offense someday but k's a lot and isn't a very good outfielder.

 

but we should all be patient and let WMP "mature"....marvelous.

[Mr Crunchy]

adam dunn and wily mo are very similar

 

i'll stop the ******** now

i want wily to succeed

im a sox fan before im an arroyo fan

christ

im a sox fan before im a lot of things

perhaps above and beyond anything outside faith and family im a sox fan

his success is vital to our plans

i just have my reservations about this boy and theyre justified in my opinion

i'll reserve further comment on wmp till june

[MC Hammer]

therein lies the rub...

 

you have a 29 y.o. pitcher who can give ya 200 innings NOW and a 4.50 era NOW and decent K's NOW and perhaps could win 15 games with the Sox NOW, all at a bargain price cuz he loves pitching in Boston....

 

but you move him for a 24 y.o. guy who MIGHT provide some offense someday but k's a lot and isn't a very good outfielder.

 

but we should all be patient and let WMP "mature"....marvelous.

"might provide some offense someday"? He hit .301 this year. Yes it was in limited time, but that's not his fault. The greatest power hitters of all time are also at the top of the K lists ... it's something you have to live with if you want the power. Talk about his glove ... fine ... but Pena's bat should not be called into question.

 

BTW Arroyo moved to the NL ... call Josh Beckett and ask him the difference between pitching in the NL and AL.

[rician blast]

"might provide some offense someday"? He hit .301 this year. Yes it was in limited time' date=' but that's not his fault. The greatest power hitters of all time are also at the top of the K lists ... it's something you have to live with if you want the power. Talk about his glove ... fine ... [b']but Pena's bat should not be called into question[/b].

 

BTW Arroyo moved to the NL ... call Josh Beckett and ask him the difference between pitching in the NL and AL.

 

his bat has to be called into question. its not an issue of "he hit .301 this year", its an issue of "does he produce to the extent that losing Arroyo in the trade was worth it?"

 

I am rooting for WMP as much as anyone else, but he is a K machine, and that diminishes his value, as does his feeble glove....y'all know I thought this trade sucked...I still do.

 

Someday I HOPE to be proven wrong...but in the here and now, the trade was a mistake, plain and simple.

 

I'm gonna try to stay away from this topic as I know I sound like a broken record.

[ORS]

Pena, while not playing full-time (something he is likely to do in the future), produced 8 Win-Shares this year. Arroyo produced 12 the year before. Three win shares is a win, so Arroyo was about 1.3 wins more valuable than Pena. Big whoop. Arroyo was expendable at the time because they had a glut of SP -- Papelbon was an option at the time, Wells and Clement weren't hurt for the year yet. They lacked young power bats.

 

Spare me the "I hope WMP does well" stuff. Nobody doubts that you do. The problem is, he'll become a non-issue for you and the others that like to show your hindsight-inspired brilliance over the FO. If WMP is doing well, he won't get mentioned and the focus will shift to other failures. If he fails, he's just another cog in the "I'm so much smarter than the FO" wheel.

[rician blast]

Pena, while not playing full-time (something he is likely to do in the future), produced 8 Win-Shares this year. Arroyo produced 12 the year before. Three win shares is a win, so Arroyo was about 1.3 wins more valuable than Pena. Big whoop. Arroyo was expendable at the time because they had a glut of SP -- Papelbon was an option at the time, Wells and Clement weren't hurt for the year yet. They lacked young power bats.

 

Spare me the "I hope WMP does well" stuff. Nobody doubts that you do. The problem is, he'll become a non-issue for you and the others that like to show your hindsight-inspired brilliance over the FO. If WMP is doing well, he won't get mentioned and the focus will shift to other failures. If he fails, he's just another cog in the "I'm so much smarter than the FO" wheel.

 

ORS, not sure the intent of your post...its obviously much more than you stating your opinion on WMP or the Arroyo trade...it seems to be a borderline attack...but its totally off-base, as you've significantly misrepresented my comments.

 

Your claim that I and "others that like to show your hindsight-inspired brilliance" is totally in contradicion to everything I've said. I've stated that I disliked the trade from day one...way before any "hindsight" would be available...and that I hope to be proven wrong...in other words that OTHERS hindsight would show me to have misjudged this trade.

 

The fact that I have what I think are very valid concerns about WMP has nothing to do with an "I'm smarter than the FO" mentality...all it is is my opinion that there are issues surrounding WMP that I think may preclude him, or at the very least delay him, from reaching the heights that some expect.

 

Your discussion of win-shares is a very good point, and I'm inclined to look at the issue with more of an open-mind given the supporting statistics you've provided...IMO, you should have stopped there, as the subsequent paragraphs in which you attempt to label me, categorize me, and misrepresent my position only serve to diminish the impact your first paragraph might have had.

 

I'll thank you to stick to the issue at hand, stating your agreement or disagreement, supporting your position, etc. and not go down the unfortunate and misguided path you've chosen in the above quoted passage, as I don't recall ever using that tact with you.