Arroyo Thread

[ORS]

You are right. That last paragraph was a bit undeserved. I've grown tired of the same tirades over the same issues that get mentioned, without fail, in every thread. You alluded to being guilty of this yourself, and I took it out all on you which wasn't called for. I apologize.

 

It just seems that some people aren't happy unless they have a reason to dump on the FO. Some people that loved the Beckett trade in the spring have turned completely around and are calling the FO inept for it now. Some of the crowd that wants Loretta back is pissed that we lost Bard and Meredith for Mirabelli without realizing we don't need to get Mirabelli back for Wake without getting Loretta. I know you aren't guilty of these things, and I'm sorry for lumping you in there.

[SCM33]

It just seems that some people aren't happy unless they have a reason to dump on the FO. Some people that loved the Beckett trade in the spring have turned completely around and are calling the FO inept for it now. Some of the crowd that wants Loretta back is pissed that we lost Bard and Meredith for Mirabelli without realizing we don't need to get Mirabelli back for Wake without getting Loretta. I know you aren't guilty of these things' date=' and I'm sorry for lumping you in there.[/quote']

 

100% correct. Boston fans are the best flip-floppers of all time. I remember when the forum was outraged that Theo left calling for Lucchinos head, then they were thrilled when Theo returned, and now people are calling for the FO's head again.

 

Again, it is not Theos fault the team s*** the bed on him. Remember, at midseason many people were calling this RedSox team the best team in the AL, ahead of Detroit. Its not Theos fault the team went through devastating injuries which they never recovered from. If anything Theo deserves credit because some people thought this team was going nowhere at the beginning of the season. They at least kept us entertained for much of the season. The team was not built for this year and it was very obvious with the moves they made during the offseason, and the moves the did not make at the trading deadline. The only deal I question (but at the same time understand) is the deal he made for Mirabelli because that deal went back on the philosophy of staying young and rebuilding. That was the only panic move Theo made.

 

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but for those of you speculating on deals for the upcoming season or key free agents aquisitions....you are most likely going to be let down. Next year is going to be worse than this year because this is the route Theo has decided to go. Instead of signing s***** overpaid veterans and driving up payroll like the Yankees he is rebuilding and we need to be patient.

[a700hitter]

100% correct. Boston fans are the best flip-floppers of all time. I remember when the forum was outraged that Theo left calling for Lucchinos head' date=' then they were thrilled when Theo returned, and now people are calling for the FO's head again.[/quote']I don't think it is flip-flopping to question whether WMP is our answer to replace Nixon. Like Rician Blast, I liked the trade when it happened, but after watching him over the course of the season legitimate questions arise as to his fielding ability and his ability to make consistent contact against better than average pitchers. Right now, I am not sure this was a good trade. I am quite concerned by what I have seen. When I hear about a guy being a "project", I think about a guy that needs to master the subtleties of the game, e.g. footwork, release point, shortening the swing. This guy's lack of contact and his lack of improvement in that aspect over a four year period worries me that he will not improve. This is not flip-flopping. If a guy stinks, he stinks. It's got nothing to do with a fan's opinion. If anything, my initial optimism about the trade may have been wrong. Is this dumping on the FO? Well, if he ends up stinking, who else would be responsible? It's their job to make these evaluations.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news' date=' but for those of you speculating on deals for the upcoming season or key free agents aquisitions....you are most likely going to be let down. Next year is going to be worse than this year because this is the route Theo has decided to go. Instead of signing s***** overpaid veterans and driving up payroll like the Yankees he is rebuilding and we need to be patient.[/quote']I disagree with this approach. The Red Sox are a premier franchise with tremendous resources that charge more money for tickets than any team in baseball. There is no reason for them to put out an inferior product to rebuild. They are one of the few franchises that has the resources to afford to keep a playoff competitive team on the field while rebuilding its farm system at the same time. At this point in time they have mismanaged both objectives. The quality of the major league club has declined precipitously while trading away key prospects. They do not get a good grade at this point. They are being outperformed in both aspects by several franchises with less resources. It's acceptable for the Marlins to rebuild when a fan can buy a box seat ticket behind home plate fro $33. The Red Sox charge almost that much for Standing Room Only. They charge $85-95 for home plate and the baselines. It would not be acceptable for the Red Sox to reward its loyal followers that cough up such exorbitant prices with a rebuilding team that is worse than last year.

[SCM33]

I disagree with this approach. The Red Sox are a premier franchise with tremendous resources that charge more money for tickets than any team in baseball. There is no reason for them to put out an inferior product to rebuild. They are one of the few franchises that has the resources to afford to keep a playoff competitive team on the field while rebuilding its farm system at the same time. At this point in time they have mismanaged both objectives. The quality of the major league club has declined precipitously while trading away key prospects. They do not get a good grade at this point. They are being outperformed in both aspects by several franchises with less resources. It's acceptable for the Marlins to rebuild when a fan can buy a box seat ticket behind home plate fro $33. The Red Sox charge almost that much for Standing Room Only. They charge $85-95 for home plate and the baselines. It would not be acceptable for the Red Sox to reward its loyal followers that cough up such exorbitant prices with a rebuilding team that is worse than last year.

 

They charge so much for admission because the stadium they play in holds significantly less than other big market teams. In order to bring in these players they must charge more per person to even it out. If they were to charge as much as lets say the Devil Rays, I can't imagine the type of team they put on the field. I understand your point but I also understand why they charge so much. I dont think they are necessarily being outperformed in aspects of the franchise though. They did enjoy some success and at the same time they are getting the younger players in to the mix. Its not like they were the Tigers and losing 119 games. The younger kids were thrown in to an environment where they won a significant amount of ball games and their experience grew. You have to remember, a rebuilding year for Boston would be considered a very good year to many other teams. We do expect them to win every year because of the resources and they do win. The Redsox are expected to compete in a division with the yankees and the yankees will almost always win that battle. While we do have the resources, the yankees will always have more. Their tickets are no bargain AND they hold about 20,000 more fans per game.

 

In addition, the resources can only go so far. You pointed out tthat smaller market teams are having more success. The reasons for this is that they did suck at one point. Take Detroit for example. They sucked, but that only means that they have more opportunities to bring in higher draft picks. The Sox and Yankees on the other hand were relying for so long on the FA market. The past few years have not prodiuced many high profile FA's worth taking a look at. It is happening again this year. There is virtually no pitching on the market so we will go in to the draft looking for solid arms. Only problem is that the smaller market teams will get the first crack at them.

[example1]

I don't think it is flip-flopping to question whether WMP is our answer to replace Nixon. Like Rician Blast' date=' I liked the trade when it happened, but after watching him over the course of the season legitimate questions arise as to his fielding ability and his ability to make consistent contact against better than average pitchers. Right now, I am not sure this was a good trade. I am quite concerned by what I have seen. When I hear about a guy being a "project", I think about a guy that needs to master the subtleties of the game, e.g. footwork, release point, shortening the swing. This guy's lack of contact and his lack of improvement in that aspect over a four year period worries me that he will not improve. This is not flip-flopping. If a guy stinks, he stinks. It's got nothing to do with a fan's opinion. If anything, my initial optimism about the trade may have been wrong. Is this dumping on the FO? Well, if he ends up stinking, who else would be responsible? It's their job to make these evaluations. I disagree with this approach. The Red Sox are a premier franchise with tremendous resources that charge more money for tickets than any team in baseball. There is no reason for them to put out an inferior product to rebuild. They are one of the few franchises that has the resources to afford to keep a playoff competitive team on the field while rebuilding its farm system at the same time. At this point in time they have mismanaged both objectives. The quality of the major league club has declined precipitously while trading away key prospects. They do not get a good grade at this point. They are being outperformed in both aspects by several franchises with less resources. It's acceptable for the Marlins to rebuild when a fan can buy a box seat ticket behind home plate fro $33. The Red Sox charge almost that much for Standing Room Only. They charge $85-95 for home plate and the baselines. It would not be acceptable for the Red Sox to reward its loyal followers that cough up such exorbitant prices with a rebuilding team that is worse than last year.[/quote']

 

 

FWIW, Wily Mo should have had his first year in the Major leagues last year. Instead the Reds, with their crappy team and need for exciting players, brought him up a few years ago. If this guy is in the Sox system then he likely would have spent at least 2 or 3 of those years in the minors. I'm not trying to disprove what you are saying, simply trying to state that perhaps some of the skills that one usually works on in the minors are things like footwork and contact.

 

My other thought is what if the sox did a platoon system with WMP, whereby he hits against all the pitchers who DON'T have a 95 mph fastball? It seems like he did pretty well against the softer throwers and struggled against the fireballers. If the ox could find a decent hitting OF to platoon with WMP then perhaps some of his inability to make contact could be thwarted and he could play against pitchers that he's likely to have success against.

[ORS]

In defense of the Reds, they brouht him up when they had to. He was signed to a Major league deal by the Yankees as an international FA. He only had 4 years of options.

[a700hitter]

My other thought is what if the sox did a platoon system with WMP' date=' whereby he hits against all the pitchers who DON'T have a 95 mph fastball? It seems like he did pretty well against the softer throwers and struggled against the fireballers. If the ox could find a decent hitting OF to platoon with WMP then perhaps some of his inability to make contact could be thwarted and he could play against pitchers that he's likely to have success against.[/quote']If it turns out that he is a platoon or fourth OF that plays against average to below averag pitchers, then the trade will be a bust. Giving up a steady 10-15 game sinning starter for that type of player is not a good move. I know that you are making the suggestion to try to maximize his output, but if that's the kind of player he becomes, those of us who favored the trade were mistaken.

[MC Hammer]

If it turns out that he is a platoon or fourth OF that plays against average to below averag pitchers' date=' then the trade will be a bust. Giving up a steady 10-15 game sinning starter for that type of player is not a good move. I know that you are making the suggestion to try to maximize his output, but if that's the kind of player he becomes, those of us who favored the trade were mistaken.[/quote']

I don't think the plan was ever to have a platoon in the OF in 07. I think the plan was for this to be Manny's last year in Boston, and Pena to take over for him in LF full time next year. I believe Manny will be traded, and Pena will be starting in LF next year. He certainly needs a lot of work with his glove before I'd feel comfortable with him out there, but I'm comfortable with his bat.

 

Arroyo is a 5 man in the AL and a 2/3 man in the NL. It was a better move for him and the Sox ... live with it.

[example1]

If it turns out that he is a platoon or fourth OF that plays against average to below averag pitchers' date=' then the trade will be a bust. Giving up a steady 10-15 game sinning starter for that type of player is not a good move. I know that you are making the suggestion to try to maximize his output, but if that's the kind of player he becomes, those of us who favored the trade were mistaken.[/quote']

 

I mean platooning someone else with WMP, allowing WMP to get 3/4 of the ABs but perhaps being able to supplement another player with better contact abilities (Catalanotto comes to mind). The idea of having a platoon partner for a 25 year old OF may seem absurd, but I assure you that with the first OF injury you'll be happy to have a non-rusty replacement readily available... even if he costs 3 million a year.

[a700hitter]

They charge so much for admission because the stadium they play in holds significantly less than other big market teams. In order to bring in these players they must charge more per person to even it out. If they were to charge as much as lets say the Devil Rays' date=' I can't imagine the type of team they put on the field. I understand your point but I also understand why they charge so much.[/quote']There are very few teams that consistently outdraw the Red Sox by a significant amount. There are but a handful of teams that do this. By significant, I am referring to teams that outdraw them by more than 250,000. If you look at the ticket prices for this handful of teams, the per ticket price differential charged by the Red Sox more than makes up for any lost revenue. The Sox are pulling in more gate revenue than most teams, plus they have other avenues of revenue such as NESn that other teams don't have. They cannot use finances as an excuse for another year like this year. That would be a complete misrepresentation.

I dont think they are necessarily being outperformed in aspects of the franchise though. They did enjoy some success and at the same time they are getting the younger players in to the mix. Its not like they were the Tigers and losing 119 games. The younger kids were thrown in to an environment where they won a significant amount of ball games and their experience grew.

The Red Sox outdrew the Tigers this year by almost 500' date='000 fans, and in the Tigers bad years the Red Sox outdraw them by 800,000 to 1 million fans, plus the Red Sox charge much more per ticket. The Tigers franchise is not in the same value league as the red Sox. As such, any comparison to them is not valid.

You have to remember, a rebuilding year for Boston would be considered a very good year to many other teams. We do expect them to win every year because of the resources and they do win. The Reds Sox are expected to compete in a division with the yankees and the yankees will almost always win that battle. While we do have the resources, the yankees will always have more. Their tickets are no bargain AND they hold about 20,000T fans per game.

The Red Sox had a lousy team this year because the FO made a number of poor decisions over the last couple of years resulting in the mismanagement of its substantial resources. If a team with the resources of the Braves can rebuild on a ongoing basis but remain in the playoffs for 14 consecutive years, there is no reason why a rich team like Boston should fail to make the playoffs a mere two years after winning the World Series. I'm just not buying your explanation. It doesn't hold water.

In addition' date=' the resources can only go so far. You pointed out tthat smaller market teams are having more success. The reasons for this is that they did suck at one point. Take Detroit for example. They sucked, but that only means that they have more opportunities to bring in higher draft picks. The Sox and Yankees on the other hand were relying for so long on the FA market. The past few years have not prodiuced many high profile FA's worth taking a look at. It is happening again this year. There is virtually no pitching on the market so we will go in to the draft looking for solid arms. Only problem is that the smaller market teams will get the first crack at them.[/quote']Well managed small market teams will have occasional success. Teams like the Red Sox should have consistent success. Also, the FA market is not the only way to leverage resources. You don't know how many teams will be looking to shed payroll or to trade stars before they become arbitration eligible. Curt Schilling was not a FA when he was acquired. Hopefully, the FO will be more creative than just looking at the FA market.

[rician blast]

You are right. That last paragraph was a bit undeserved. I've grown tired of the same tirades over the same issues that get mentioned, without fail, in every thread. You alluded to being guilty of this yourself, and I took it out all on you which wasn't called for. I apologize.

 

It just seems that some people aren't happy unless they have a reason to dump on the FO. Some people that loved the Beckett trade in the spring have turned completely around and are calling the FO inept for it now. Some of the crowd that wants Loretta back is pissed that we lost Bard and Meredith for Mirabelli without realizing we don't need to get Mirabelli back for Wake without getting Loretta. I know you aren't guilty of these things, and I'm sorry for lumping you in there.

 

Thanks...and I agree with you regarding fans (regardless of team affilitation) flip-flopping...it is all too common.

 

In fact, I will admit that I was all for the Beckett trade...at the time it looked great and I think it still has merit, regardless of how Hanley and Anibel performed this year. As time goes on, depending on Beckett's performance, those two might make the trade look better or worse..but judging it at the time, I thought it was a terrific move. I won't deny that.

 

Another example? I was all for letting Clemens go and test the FA waters years ago...that 40-39 record over the last 4 years of his Sox contract led me to believe he was done. I was wrong.

 

I understand your point and appreciate your comments.

[example1]

The Red Sox had a lousy team this year because the FO made a number of poor decisions over the last couple of years resulting in the mismanagement of its substantial resources. If a team with the resources of the Braves can rebuild on a ongoing basis but remain in the playoffs for 14 consecutive years' date=' there is no reason why a rich team like Boston should fail to make the playoffs a mere two years after winning the World Series. [/quote']

 

Oh give me a break a700! Perhaps you have noticed that the Braves played in a division that consistently produced crappy competition? They consistently won by 10 games or more. The reason the sox are more challenged to make the playoffs is that most years, even with their BEST teams, they are guaranteed to be (AT BEST) favored to finish second in the AL East. The Yankees make the Braves look like a little league team as far as talent goes. If the Braves were in the AL East your statement above would be obvious hogwash. In this case its just hogwash.

 

The Sox did NOT have a lousy team this year. That's just crap. They had a team that was easily one of the best teams in baseball through the allstar break. They had the 3rd best record in baseball on August 2nd. AUGUST 2nd. They fell apart at the end of the year due to injuries and a general apathy that came with the long season and horrible pitching. In any case, they weren't great and didn't deserve to make the playoffs by any stretch but they were lousy only compared to the Sox years of late. They were "godawful" in August and Sept, but that doesn't negate 2/3 of a season playing .600+ ball.

 

I'm just not buying your explanation. It doesn't hold water.Well managed small market teams will have occasional success. Teams like the Red Sox should have consistent success.

 

They have had consistent success. They had 2 bad months, not 6.

 

Also, the FA market is not the only way to leverage resources. You don't know how many teams will be looking to shed payroll or to trade stars before they become arbitration eligible. Curt Schilling was not a FA when he was acquired. Hopefully, the FO will be more creative than just looking at the FA market.

 

I agree completely. The FO is sure to be creative in moving some of its loot around to create a deeper, more balanced team.

[a700hitter]

I don't think the plan was ever to have a platoon in the OF in 07. I think the plan was for this to be Manny's last year in Boston' date=' and Pena to take over for him in LF full time next year. I believe Manny will be traded, and Pena will be starting in LF next year. He certainly needs a lot of work with his glove before I'd feel comfortable with him out there, but I'm comfortable with his bat.[/quote']I don't know how you could feel comfortable with WMP's bat replacing Manny's. I don't think too many people would agree with you.

Arroyo is a 5 man in the AL and a 2/3 man in the NL. It was a better move for him and the Sox ... live with it.

This is just an immature remark. Do any of us here have any control over Red Sox management? What choice do we have than to deal with it? That doesn't mean we can't discuss the merits of the deal. Isn't that what these boards are all about? I dealt with the trading of Bagwell for Larry Anderson, but that doesn't mean that it was a good trade. Your conclusion that Arroyo was a #5 pitcher in the AL is unsupportable by any evidence. Yes he was a #4/5 pitcher on a staff with Pedro, Lowe, and Schilling. On some AL teams he woulkd have been a #3. He was and still is a consistent 10-15 game winner in either league. He takes the ball 33-35 times a year. Your conclusions about AL/NL transfers are not supportable when it comes to win totals. If anything moving to the AL should help win totals, because pitchers are not lifted for PH's before the 5th inning, and AL teams have been winning more interleague games the last few years.

[MC Hammer]

I don't know how you could feel comfortable with WMP's bat replacing Manny's. I don't think too many people would agree with you.

Didn't say I was comfortable with it. I said I think that's what the plans are.

 

This is just an immature remark. Do any of us here have any control over Red Sox management? What choice do we have than to deal with it? That doesn't mean we can't discuss the merits of the deal. Isn't that what these boards are all about? I dealt with the trading of Bagwell for Larry Anderson, but that doesn't mean that it was a good trade. Your conclusion that Arroyo was a #5 pitcher in the AL is unsupportable by any evidence. Yes he was a #4/5 pitcher on a staff with Pedro, Lowe, and Schilling. On some AL teams he woulkd have been a #3. He was and still is a consistent 10-15 game winner in either league. He takes the ball 33-35 times a year. Your conclusions about AL/NL transfers are not supportable when it comes to win totals. If anything moving to the AL should help win totals, because pitchers are not lifted for PH's before the 5th inning, and AL teams have been winning more interleague games the last few years.

Please discuss it, but jesus christ we've been talking about this since before the god damn season. How much more can you discuss one trade?

 

Being in the AL means that instead of getting to face an automatic out every time around the order(pitcher) ... you're facing the best hitter on the team(DH). If you don't see a huge difference in that alone then I'm not sure what you're look at.

[a700hitter]

Didn't say I was comfortable with it. I said I think that's what the plans are.

Here's what you said:

I believe Manny will be traded' date=' and Pena will be starting in LF next year. He certainly needs a lot of work with his glove before I'd feel comfortable with him out there, but I'm comfortable with his bat.[/quote']So, you are comfortable with his bat, but not with his bat replacing Manny's? Thank you for clarifying that.

Please discuss it' date=' but jesus christ we've been talking about this since before the god damn season. How much more can you discuss one trade?[/quote']I have not been an opponent to this trade as others have. If you are tired of the discussion then don't engage in it. A "shut up" equivalent like your statement is out of line.

Being in the AL means that instead of getting to face an automatic out every time around the order(pitcher) ... you're facing the best hitter on the team(DH). If you don't see a huge difference in that alone then I'm not sure what you're look at.

I do understand that, but do you understand that the opposing team's pitcher also has to face a DH. The playing field is level. And let's not forget that the Red Sox have the best DH in all of baseball, so our pitchers should be at an advantage compared to other AL pitchers. Unfortuantely, this years staff just had no talent for either league.

[a700hitter]

Oh give me a break a700! Perhaps you have noticed that the Braves played in a division that consistently produced crappy competition? They consistently won by 10 games or more. The reason the sox are more challenged to make the playoffs is that most years' date=' even with their BEST teams, they are guaranteed to be (AT BEST) favored to finish second in the AL East. The Yankees make the Braves look like a little league team as far as talent goes. If the Braves were in the AL East your statement above would be obvious hogwash. In this case its just hogwash.[/quote']The Phillies and the Mets have had some good teams throughout the Braves 14 years. The Phillies have put out a number of star-studded teams under Larry Bowa, but none of them could get it done. The Mets had good teams in '99 and 2000. It's true that the NL East has not been a power house division, but the Mets have had big budgets and the Braves have not, yet they had managed to outperform them every year. The Phillies have spent money freely also. Let's not denigrate the Braves accomplishment. Also, let's not forget that the AL East has had its share of perennial dogs. The Rays have been a perennial low budget walkover for years. The O's have been a joke for years lately, and the jays have become competitive only over the last couple of years. The AL East, other than the Yanks, has not been such a perennial powerhouse.

The Sox did NOT have a lousy team this year. That's just crap. They had a team that was easily one of the best teams in baseball through the all star break. They had the 3rd best record in baseball on August 2nd. AUGUST 2nd. They fell apart at the end of the year due to injuries and a general apathy that came with the long season and horrible pitching. In any case' date=' they weren't great and didn't deserve to make the playoffs by any stretch but they were lousy only compared to the Sox years of late. They were "godawful" in August and Sept, but that doesn't negate 2/3 of a season playing .600+ ball.[/quote']It's a 162 game season. Two thirds of a season doesn't count. Injuries are not an excuse. They are part of the game. They were a third place team for the first time since 1997. The fact that they were hot was a mirage that covered up the deficiencies of this team. The fact that they had Jason Johnson in the rotation in the beginning of July and left him there for 6 starts and also brought in Kyle Snyder was not a good sign. I was fearing the collapse for some time before it happened. The FO needed to address those deficiencies in July and they did not. The result was the eventual collapse. Could the FO have stemmed the collapse? The answer to that is pure conjecture. No one knows. The only thing we do know is that they didn't try. They let the fans and the team down. I credit the team for not complaining publicly, because writers and other commentators have stated that there was unhappiness in the clubhouse after the trading deadline.