Arroyo Thread

[ORS]

Last night's game, Arroyo vs. Mussina, provided some insight about our musician on the mound. They are two very similar pitchers. Equitable velocity, both top out the gun around 91 mph. Their best stuff is offspeed breaking pithces with location.

 

The major difference is Mussina's ability to locate his fastball for strikes, which is something he has been able to do since he was first called up by the O's. Arroyo's struggle to hit his spots with the fastball has allowed opponents to sit on the breaking ball in the strike zone.

 

I think we have seen the best we will see from Arroyo, and I'm not sold on him being a reliable starter in the AL East. Theo really ought to consider dealing him now, because I think his stock will only fall with more starts in this division.

 

Thoughts.......?

[soxie thefangirl]

I agree. Also. He shouldn't have concerts the night before he starts. Geeez.

[riverside sluggers]

its becoming more evident we should get a new starting pitcher, try anyway in the market. and put arroyo back in the bullpen where he does much better consistently. and by the way tito, embree is the most inconsistent pitcher for the sox by far. yankees and other teams in teh majors got rid of relief pitchers with ERAs over 6. why cant you?? halfway thru the season embree's ERA is now at 7.93, his contract ends this season, but its best to give him the pink slip right away and call up a jon lester or a papplebon

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Talks around the league are that John Henry LOVES AJ Burnett and a deal involving Arroyo has potential. The Sox are also looking at Al Leiter for the bullpen so if a deal is going to get done I think the Marlins are the team to do it with

[elsrbueno]

I'm not ready to give up on Bronson Arroyo. At 28 years old he's no prospect, and he had a bad night last night, but he's still got potential. Of course a deal for AJ Burnett would be a positive thing (because Burnett has higher upside IMO), but I wouldn't be interested in just getting rid of Bronson for nothing. He was 7-5 with a very respectable 4.02 ERA before blowing up against the Yankees, and was respectable last year.

 

Let's face facts here folks: We had a #5 pitcher throwing against a #2 in yesterday's game and Bronson still gave us a chance to win. He's battled the likes of Johnson, Halladay, and now Mussina already this season and given us a chance to win every time. Isn't that what you want in a #5 pitcher?

 

Bronson Arroyo is not this team's ace, and shouldn't be expected to pitch like one.

[sarasoxfan]

leiter, another washed up starter closing?

 

how about we deal for a real closer, put schilling back in as a starter where he f***ing belongs, get rid of stiffs like bellhorn and millar and embree and make a real run at this thing.

[YanksHater213]

Yeah, elsrbueno is pretty right. People are expecting every pitcher on our staff to pitch like Pedro in his prime and it just cant happen. I will take whatever Arroyo can give, because he is very valuable to this team. We also have to remember that I believe this is still his first full year starting (? dont remember if he started the whole year last year), but he will come around and pitch like the #4 or 5 starter he is capable of being.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

I'm not ready to give up on Bronson Arroyo. At 28 years old he's no prospect, and he had a bad night last night, but he's still got potential. Of course a deal for AJ Burnett would be a positive thing (because Burnett has higher upside IMO), but I wouldn't be interested in just getting rid of Bronson for nothing. He was 7-5 with a very respectable 4.02 ERA before blowing up against the Yankees, and was respectable last year.

 

Let's face facts here folks: We had a #5 pitcher throwing against a #2 in yesterday's game and Bronson still gave us a chance to win. He's battled the likes of Johnson, Halladay, and now Mussina already this season and given us a chance to win every time. Isn't that what you want in a #5 pitcher?

 

Bronson Arroyo is not this team's ace, and shouldn't be expected to pitch like one.

 

I'd rather have him in the bullpen where he gives us a chance to win late in the game and fill the rotation with #1 and #2 guys...with a middle rotation pitcher at the end

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Yeah, elsrbueno is pretty right. People are expecting every pitcher on our staff to pitch like Pedro in his prime and it just cant happen. I will take whatever Arroyo can give, because he is very valuable to this team. We also have to remember that I believe this is still his first full year starting (? dont remember if he started the whole year last year), but he will come around and pitch like the #4 or 5 starter he is capable of being.

 

With the 2nd highest payroll in baseball we can find players that are not meant to be #4 or #5 starters......look I like Arroyo but he is predictable and as the game progresses the teams time his breaking ball too well......he would be much better served in the pen where teams dont have time to adjust...he doesnt fool anyone as the game goes on cause its the same thing. Yeah he gives us a chance to win....not hard to do when your team is always scoring 6 runs....we dont need another Pedro. We do need another ace! Last year was a luxury to have Schilling and Pedro....but thats what it takes...hate it or love it thats what you need to win the World Series and we don't have it right now

[elsrbueno]

I'd rather have him in the bullpen where he gives us a chance to win late in the game and fill the rotation with #1 and #2 guys...with a middle rotation pitcher at the end

 

Sure, who wouldn't love a rotation of Pedro Martinez, Johan Santana, Curt Schilling (healthy), Roger Clemens, and Matt Clement (ordinary pitcher thrown into the end for effect)......

 

The problem is that isn't realistic. As much as it dissapoints you, we are not the Yankees. This organization is commited to building from within and remaining "physcally responsible" which means not buying all stars for every position, and not spending $15 million a year on 40 year old pitchers.

 

Theo Epstein has said he would not give up the top prospects in this organization, which makes it damn-near impossible to acquire a Jason Schmidt type ace pitcher at the deadline. Which implies to me that he's prepared to go forward with what we've got already... which means Bronson is a starter until Schilling comes back.... and we have absolutely no idea when that will be.

[soxie thefangirl]

Well then that's stupid. He should quit being so stubborn and make a damn trade.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Sure, who wouldn't love a rotation of Pedro Martinez, Johan Santana, Curt Schilling (healthy), Roger Clemens, and Matt Clement (ordinary pitcher thrown into the end for effect)......

 

The problem is that isn't realistic. As much as it dissapoints you, we are not the Yankees. This organization is commited to building from within and remaining "physcally responsible" which means not buying all stars for every position, and not spending $15 million a year on 40 year old pitchers.

 

Theo Epstein has said he would not give up the top prospects in this organization, which makes it damn-near impossible to acquire a Jason Schmidt type ace pitcher at the deadline. Which implies to me that he's prepared to go forward with what we've got already... which means Bronson is a starter until Schilling comes back.... and we have absolutely no idea when that will be.

 

Well I'm not saying it would happen and I'm not the only one who would love to have that rediculous rotation you mentioned.....the whole thing here is do you believe Arroyo is right for our rotation....I say no

 

I like guys with a high ceiling for potential and Arroyo does not have it. Is he good? absolutly.....but he will only be as good as his potential and with a low velocity and limited pitch type its just not going to get done. I like going after guys such as Wade Miller and Matt Clement with that high potential....I hate going after guys like David Wells cause you know what they will give you (average).

[riverside sluggers]

bronson is the type of guy you can bring in when your starting pitcher was only able to last 5 innings or less, the long reliever, than arroyo can give your team 3 innings then let the setup and closer picthers come in

[ORS]

I'm not suggesting we get rid of Arroyo for some magic beans, quite the contrary. I just think we need to act while teams are interested because Arroyo's dim shine is, in my opinion, beginning to fade.

 

And, yes, he does have potential. He could be another Mussina if he starts to locate his fastball, but Mussina never had those control problems. If he's only topping out around 90mph, he needs to be able to work the strikezone in and out, up and down to be effective. He keeps getting behind batters with missed fastballs and they are just camping out at 2-0 looking for meatball curve in the zone.

 

Barring injuries, the Yankees rotation has 4 pitchers who were the #1 (Johnson, Mussina, Pavano, Brown) on the teams they left to come to NY, and a #2 (Wright). While we don't quite lay out the dough like they do, at the amount of money we spend, we shouldn't have anything worse than a #3 in the rotation. Arroyo is #4 or #5 and won't be better than that without location.

[riverside sluggers]

matt clement was their best free agent signing end of last year by far, as it stands our ace with a 10/2 record, true i liked at first them signing wade miller, but "liked at first" is key phrase, hes given me nothing to cheer about and each game im expect him to last 5 innings at the most.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

matt clement was their best free agent signing end of last year by far, as it stands our ace with a 10/2 record, true i liked at first them signing wade miller, but "liked at first" is key phrase, hes given me nothing to cheer about and each game im expect him to last 5 innings at the most.

 

trust me its still a little early on Wade Miller....you may feel you have seen everything from him but you havent.....ive followed this guy for a long time and he will come around. So far he's had some bad luck but you have seen glimpses of what he can do. His control has been getting better and his velocity is just about back to where it was before his injury. Once the control is there he pounds the strike zone very well and has excellent movement....if you saw the Sox play against him when he was in Houston you would know what i mean....lots of potential

[riverside sluggers]

yeah just hes gotta work on his first inning. so far hes averaging 20-35 pitches in first inning of each game, plus has allowed so far 12 runs scored in 1st innings of the games alone

[ORS]

trust me its still a little early on Wade Miller....you may feel you have seen everything from him but you havent.....ive followed this guy for a long time and he will come around. So far he's had some bad luck but you have seen glimpses of what he can do. His control has been getting better and his velocity is just about back to where it was before his injury. Once the control is there he pounds the strike zone very well and has excellent movement....if you saw the Sox play against him when he was in Houston you would know what i mean....lots of potential

I agree, Miller can be outright NASTY when he has his control and velocity back. Low 90's and can move the ball both ways. I'm expecting a better 2nd half from Wade.

[elsrbueno]

trust me its still a little early on Wade Miller....you may feel you have seen everything from him but you havent.....ive followed this guy for a long time and he will come around. So far he's had some bad luck but you have seen glimpses of what he can do. His control has been getting better and his velocity is just about back to where it was before his injury. Once the control is there he pounds the strike zone very well and has excellent movement....if you saw the Sox play against him when he was in Houston you would know what i mean....lots of potential

 

I have to back SITN here because I truly believe Miller will improve. This guy was a pretty amazing pitcher in Houston before being striken with injuries, and he may still be gaining that strength back. I've been wrong plenty of times before, but I strongly believe Miller will be a big part of the second half Red Sox.

[Sizzlin22]

Barring injuries, the Yankees rotation has 4 pitchers who were the #1 (Johnson, Mussina, Pavano, Brown) on the teams they left to come to NY, and a #2 (Wright). While we don't quite lay out the dough like they do, at the amount of money we spend, we shouldn't have anything worse than a #3 in the rotation. Arroyo is #4 or #5 and won't be better than that without location.

First of all Brown is not a #1 and hasn't been a 1 for 4 years, Pavano has been crappy in the time he's pitched this year, his K/9 ratio is too low, the same goes for Wright, so I think even with out injuries the Yankees rotation would not be that good.

 

People jump on Arroyo too much, the guy is solid pitcher, no one should expect an ace out of him.

[ORS]

I'm not expecting an ace, but he's just VERY hittable. I think people are overrating his value because of his middle relief performances in last year's postseason. But you aren't going to use long middle relief as often in the regular season because it's not do or die.

 

As far as the Yankee rotation goes, none of them have performed this season. I was making the point that when the Yankee's acquired them, all of them were the ace of their respective staffs (except for Wright).

 

There are teams interested in Arroyo right now. I'm saying take advantage of that interest while it lasts because the more AB's hitters in the AL East get against him, the more that interest will wane.

[vegassoxfan]

i like arroyo where he is at right now. if mueller makes that throw yesterday maybe arroyo has the win today. he keeps us in most games. he is not making alot of money comparatively. that being said if we could use him in a deal for burnett then im all ears.

[Sizzlin22]

Also I would like to add Arroyo is making less than a million a year, pretty cheap for the output he's giving us.

[RedSoxRooter]

Arroyo's strategizing his return to the Red Sox

 

01:00 AM EDT on Wednesday, October 11, 2006

 

 

Bronson Arroyo may be in Cincinnati, but his heart is still in Boston.

 

In fact, he may already be planning his return.

 

"I still miss playing in that uniform, especially when I turn on the TV and they are 10 games out of first place and there is still a crowd that is maybe more enthusiastic than any crowd in the game," Arroyo told the Lawrence (Mass.) Eagle-Tribune in a story published yesterday.

 

"You never know what's going to happen in the next couple years."

 

One thing that will happen is Arroyo hitting the free-agent market after 2008, when the three-year contract he signed with the Red Sox last winter expires. He has yet to sell his home in Boston, and he told the newspaper he'll hold onto it for at least two more years . . . or until he sees what happens in free agency.

 

Arroyo, 29, went 14-11 with a 3.29 E.R.A. for the Reds and made the National League All-Star team. He said Sox general manager Theo Epstein, who traded him to Cincinnati for outfielder Wily Mo Pena in spring training, called to congratulate him on his All-Star selection.

 

"He was joking around about how he couldn't go anywhere in the city without somebody yelling at him about trading me," Arroyo said.

 

Like many Sox fans, Arroyo didn't understand why Boston would pitching for outfield help.

 

"[Why] would you trade away a young, 200-inning arm?" he said. "Even if Wily Mo hits 40 home runs, I think with what's going on in baseball as far as getting rid of steroids and stuff, it's becoming harder for people to pitch 200 innings and stay healthy year after year. I can see pitchers becoming more of a commodity than they were five or six years ago."

 

And Arroyo thinks he became more of a commodity after the season he had.

 

"I was disappointed with the move, but it is probably going to help me out in the long run, because I'm coming over to [Cincinnati] with a little more responsibility, showing I didn't need the Boston Red Sox lineup to stay out there and win ballgames." he said. "In the end, as a free agent, I have become worth more than if I stayed in Boston and pitched out of the pen . . .

 

"Over time, you earn your respect. I've always been a guy who has been borderline, 'Is he a starter or a bullpen guy?' But now I think I've shown I can be a No. 3 on any team in baseball.

 

"So now I've gotten over that hump. Now I have to prove that I can be a guy who can do it 2, 3, 5 or 10 years in a row."

 

... poor guy

[pudge]

I hated the arroyo trade and i still do .

[Mr Crunchy]

worst trade since bagwell for larry anderson

[ORS]

That's a bit much. When I started this thread last year, I envisioned getting a bit more than an undeveloped OF stud, but I don't think WMP has been as dissappointing as some other recent trades. A 10-win rookie pitcher and stud SS for Nuke LaLoosh? I'd say that one was a bit worse. Suppan et al for the '06 NL batting champ? That one too.

[riverside sluggers]

worst trade since bagwell for larry anderson

 

--Jef Bagwell is a future HOF who banged out around 450 Homeruns

--Arroyo is an All-Star & possible Cy Young candidate in the NL, but in Boston he's a 5th starter against the AL lineups

[rician blast]

"[Why] would you trade away a young, 200-inning arm?" he said. "Even if Wily Mo hits 40 home runs, I think with what's going on in baseball as far as getting rid of steroids and stuff, it's becoming harder for people to pitch 200 innings and stay healthy year after year. I can see pitchers becoming more of a commodity than they were five or six years ago."

 

 

I like this statement...strikes to the very heart of what those against the trade have been saying all along. You don't have to be an absolute stud pitcher to have a major role on a staff...you need to eat innings and give your team an opportunity to win. Arroyo does that.

[Mr Crunchy]

and our 5th starters single handedly handcuffed this team

take arroyos 220 innings and add a run onto his era if you wish

then

from the lenny dinardo show to the kason gabbards to the jj johnsons to the dee snyders look at their records

then do the math as to how many innings our bullpen got taxed due to this stupidity of a move and stevie wonder could see how badly we missed arroyo

 

of course we got a 200 k per season guy in wily mo pena to take the edge off the loss of a 28 year old 200 inning pitcher who is cheap and loves it here

so its all good

 

jesus christ why did they bring this thread up