Hugh2

Espinoza pitched yesterday. 6 IP 2 H 0 R 0 ER 3 K's. Only 67 pitches through 6 innings so he was efficient with 10 ground outs to 3 fly outs. Not only is this kid only 18, but he literally just turned 18 2 months ago. He's the youngest pitcher in A ball and 4 years younger than the average player. If he was a U.S. citizen he would be a senior in high school right now and he's pitching very well against competition thats on the same level as Division one college juniors and seniors. The last time someone was hyped as much as him this early in their professional career was Bogaerts. Still, he's an 18 year old pitcher in low A so a lot can happen but the sky is the limit with this kid.

No, an "auto-matic out" is a very poor way of describing poor offense.

Vas never hit well in the minors but after some time to adjust he always hit good enough to if he carries that same progression to the MLB level he will eventually be an above average MLB hitter (for a catcher) as well. And with his arm and pitch framing skills that just adds too much value to give up behind the plate.

If the league average is so low you're effectively an automatic out then I don't think being league average makes you not an automatic out. Vas has had a couple clutch hits though. I was always pro Swihart long term, because I envisioned his defense becoming average to above average with an elite bat for the position. Now that player still might be in him but I think I've come over to the pro Vasquez camp now. This offense is just too good, we can afford (easily) to have Vasquez in there with what he brings behind the plate defensively; his defense has tremendous value back there. Also, I do think there is room for improvement in his bat as well.

It's a different style, personally I kind of like it. I always thought we had too many threads and too much clutter over at BDC. At time we could literally have 4-5 threads talking about the same exact subject. That made no sense.

You're correct you can be a troll on your favorite teams board....but Slasher is by no means a troll. You're a troll, which is fine....it's is right to do as you please but you are. I don't believe any Sox fan would call Slasher a troll.

Not that I disagree but there is a difference between not having electric stuff and not being able to execute. The outcome might be the same if you can't execute but if you have good stuff the potential for excellence is there. You can't teach 99 MPH, and you can't teach longer fingers being able to spin a breaking ball.

I'm not brushing it aside, I see it, understand it, own it, and still say Bogaerts was heralded as having a higher offensive ceiling back in 2013. He was talked about as a potential middle of the order bat. No one constructs a lineup saying that a guy who would bat #7 as an outfielder should bat #3 as a short stop. You can separate the two, but you should look at the whole package, but that's not my position here. My original point was I thought Bogaerts was perceived as having a higher offensive ceiling in 2013 than Benintendi does now. You say that Bogaerts was heralded as having a strong offensive ceiling because of positional adjustment....I don't disagree with the concept at all. I just think in spite of the position Bogaerts still had one of the highest offensive ceilings in all of prospectidum back in 2013. Consider this, he was promoted to the big leagues as a 20 year old to NOT play short stop. I think Benetendi has a very high offensive ceiling too, I don't think it's higher than Bogaerts, I suppose you disagree, but I just don't see it. What really sparked this was implying that Bogaerts having a higher offensive ceiling than Benitendi puts someone on a different planet. I don't think so, and if it was that obvious I would expect the narrative around Benintendi to be him having an MVP middle of the order bat and even if he's being talked about as such that puts him on Bogaerts level position aside, not the other way around. Bogaerts was rushed much quicker than Benitendi, and because of that I'm not convinced Andrew has the better approach. You can go by the stats which puts AB 2% points better in the BB department and a lower K rate. But Bogaerts also played almost every level 2 years younger than Benintendi and that matters. Now, in Benintendis defense it's not his fault he didn't start this year in Portland but it does matter that Bogaerts came up through the system at a younger age. If Bogaerts played every level a year or two older...he could have very well put up video game numbers, like AB is now. But I think Benintendi has to show something above A ball to be in the same universe as Bogaerts ceiling and in the absence of that track record all you have to go by is tools. And Bogaerts had elite offensive tools as well when he was in the minors. He had elite bat speed, and the ability to make adjustments and square the ball up with back spin against much older pitching and he also has a better physical profile and body type than Andrew Benintendi. Now all that might not matter, but it matters when projecting talent out as a scout in the minor leagues which is one reason why Bogaerts was heralded as having an elite offensive ceiling. If Bogaerts was a CFer instead of a SS....I still think he would have been a top 10 prospect. Now I'll fully admit that last statement is completely subjective but the narrative about him coming up and heralded as a potential middle of the order bat is not.

E-Rod scheduled to pitch tomorrow. I guess it wasnt' that much of a set up, which is for encouraging.

Also please don't keep saying things that I don't understand that I clearly do. I'm well aware of the positional adjustment. I know darn well that a SS and a LFer who have all tools equal that the SS will be regarded much higher than him because of that. My argument was based on the assumption that fielding aside Bogaerts still had a higher ceiling as an offensive player. I see no information from anyone that has led me to believe otherwise. Maybe you have seen something that could persuade someone otherwise...and I'd love to read that.

Listen, I have no desire to get into a pissing argument today. I really don't care about winning an argument. If Benintendi really does have a higher ceiling than Bogaerts and scouts are talking like that now about him F'ng awesome dude. I love reading and learning about these kids and I'm asking you for some information because allegedly you know something I do not. I'm not trying to come of all "ne nur ne nur poo poo" you can't show me proof" no I'm asking you to direct me to these 3 scouts who said Benintendi has a 70 grade overall. As you said before, neither of us are actually scouts or know ourselves and if I could read what you read then I'll probably change my opinion. So I'm sorry you feel that I'm "so set in my ways" actually I'd be more than willing to change my point of view....just help me out a little bit.

Here is BP's top 10 25 and under. I'd be willing to bet Bogaerts or Betts would be #1 on anyones list Top 10 Talents 25 And Under (born 4/1/90 or later) 1a. Xander Bogaerts 1b. Mookie Betts 3. Yoan Moncada 4. Blake Swihart 5. Eduardo Rodriguez 6. Anderson Espinoza 7. Rafael Devers 8. Andrew Benintendi 9. Jackie Bradley, Jr. 10. Henry Owens

Do you have a link to the 3 evaporators who graded him overall as a 70? Last BA had all his tools at 55/50 except his hit tool 70. BP had him overall at 60. mlb.com has him at 55 overall. Keith Law had this to say about him the other day: keith law had this to say about him the other day: "KLaw: I love Benintendi, but everyone is getting way too excited about a college prospect raking in high-A. He might be a superstar - it wouldn't really surprise me at all - but I think we need to see him in AA. The SEC to high-A is kind of a lateral move for a 21-year-old" I'll eat crow....but please show these 3 scouts giving Benintendi an overall 70 grade???? If Benintendi had that high of a ceiling he should have no problem being the top prospect in baseball. And no, it's not because he doesn't play SS because Bryon Buxton had zero problem being the #1 prospect in all of baseball as a CFer. Bogaerts was being talked about as being one of the best players in all of baseball with an MVP ceiling, that is why he was the #2 prospect. 2013 Bogaerts > 2016 Benintendi. It's close....but I don't really see the debate.

I follow the minor leagues twice as much as the big league club, I read every article on BA, BP, FG, anything from Law, Cooper, Mayo, Sickels, badler and many more. I'm not some Joe just reading MiLb box scores forming an opinion. That's 1 guy, 1 scout slapping a 70 on him, and correct me if I'm wrong it that was just on his hit tool. One scout on one tool? Sox prospects had an 80 slapped on Bogaerts, and I always trust them more on sox players because they have more eyes on our own guys. Benitendi is a consensus top 25 guy while Bogaerts was #2. If scouts thought Benitendi was an all around 70 player he'd be a consensus top 5, top 3 player in all of baseball.

Im going to repeat myself here because this point can't be stressed enough. No team is going to trade away an ACE for 6 B level prospects when you have 3-4 blue chippers at the top of your organization. Also QTY almost never makes up for quality. If I had Sale or Thor I'm asking for your top 4, and I wouldn't even consider taking 20 Kopechs in replace of that. Also supply of RP isn't higher than demand, elite RP at least. If anything the trade market and FA market reflect the demand is going up. And the Rangers package for Hamels did include top prospects. But if Hamels was 5-6 years younger and making pennies that package would have to be doubled in value. Apples to Oranges when talking about bringing in young cost controlled elite arms.

Baloney! Bogaerts reached MLB and had a .900 ops in playoffs as a 20 year old. You don't do that if you're just good with bat but can play short. I get and agree that all things considered a SS that can hit is more valuable than another position player. But we are comparing a SS to a CFer not a corner outfielder, or a first baseman. Also Bogaerts was regarded as having an elite bat coming up for any position, hence the consensus top 5 prospect status and reaching of MLB by age 20. It's not like the margin is huge between the two players. But making a statement that I must be on a different planet to say Bogaerts had a higher ceiling than Benintendi at his age is ludicrous. Bogaerts helped the Sox win a World Series while Benitendi hasn't done anything above A-ball. Now it's not Benny's fault the Sox held him back a tad and I think he's a stud but Bogaerts mastered A ball when he was 18-19. And if we do put in defense (which we should) and we make the argument current the chasm widens. Because Bogaerts is doing it at the MLB level and playing above average SS.

Centerfield is pretty important too, and there was a much larger consensus that Bogaerts couldn't stick at SS and would have to move to 3rd. I follow the minors more than the majors, I read just about every scouting organization there is. Anyone who has paid attention to milb talent the past few years will tell you Bogaerts had more hype. You want proof? #2 prospect in baseball, people were saying he had an MVP ceiling in 2013, people are saying Benitendi has an ALL star ceiling. Now maybe Bogaerts power never comes and Benintendi exceeds Bogaerts. But Bogaerts had a perceived higher ceiling in 2013 than Benitendi does now. And I'd argue Bogaerts still does.

You're not getting an ACE for QTY, I feel like this debate was had over at BDC every year. Those types of trades never happen. Qty does not make up for quality, the other team isn't living in a world where the Redsox can figure out how to not give up Bogaerts Betts, and if the situation dictates a prospect package you better believe you're giving up 2 of Devers, Benintendi, Espinoza, Moncada plus two from your list.

No we wouldn't, if anything Benintendi is more heralded as an up the middle defender and Bogaerts was considered an offense first SS. This is 2016 and you have google, it's not a secret. When Bogaerts was at this stage of his development he was younger than Benintendi and the #2 prospect in all of baseball. Benintendi is a really really really highly regarded prospect but 2013 Bogaerts > 2016 Benintendi all day. Andrew has the #7 pick expectations that never came with Xander. If a 20 year old Xander entered the draft as an eligible sophomore I think he'd be a consensus #1 pick.

Has there ever been a 6 or 7 player swap for one guy? I dont' think we can make up for quality with QTY. If you want a high quality player you have to give up quality. Trades are supposed to hurt for both teams, the other side has to think they are winning the trade.

Of course this is assuming that the Mets want the trade off of hitting for pitching. They might not want that, and they might want to move prospects for hitting to keep their pitching core in tact.

Young cost controlled ace starters on teams that are in "win now" mode don't get traded. The only way this is plausible is if the Mets think they can trade off pitching for hitting in which case they are 100% going to demand back MLB talent. In other words, a guy like Bogaerts is going to have to headline the trade. Now a prospect package might be feasible on a last place team but not for a team that was just in the world series last year and has aspirations to compete going forward. I think something like Bogaerts/Devers/Owens/Buchholz gets it done.

Planet earth.

Because some people got it in there heads Young was horrible after a few games because they like to look at things like BA, he will be hated for a long time I forsee. I suppose if the team is so good all you can complain about is the platoon/4th outfielder then things must be going pretty good.

At this point in the 2013 season Bogaerts was in Portland, but he had 100 games under his belt...not 3. Also I think Bogaerts had/has a higher offensive ceiling than someone like Benintendi who is more of a moderately high ceiling high floor guy. I'm not saying he can't do it, but if he's going to be there in October he has to be there in August and we are assuming he's going to jump 2 more levels in 2 months after only playing 3 games above A ball.