Hugh2

I’m just not sure Fenway gets enough sunlight to go Solar.

Looks like we are going Soler anyways. Who knows where he plays

Did we really need another left fielder with a declining bat?

It’s all connected people. When you don’t have young pitching and you have to go out and buy it you can get burned by the hot stove. David Price, Jacob Degrome etc etc. When you can draft and develop young players, particularly pitching you can afford to make a mistake or two when you’re a big market club. Haven’t the Yankees made mistakes? The Dodgers? There’s no silver bullet, there’s risk with anyone. Yamamoto never pitched an inning in the bigs and carrys significant risk with his size. Maybe that doesn’t matter. Snell has two CY young’s and a lot of durability concerns and mediocre seasons sprinkled inbetween. Montgomery is going to be paid like an ace for pitching like a 2/3. But he’s been absurdly consistent. That could drastically change after 30. Risk is mitigated by not having to rely on your free agent signings having to hit. Sox are in a position now where they have to hit. I would have been ok with them taking that risk, but a better run organization built towards sustainable success is going to have to start with young pitching. Notice how we are always talking about the guys a year away from free agency being traded? How often to ACE pitchers with 3+ years of team control ACTUALLY get traded? Sure it happens, obviously, but it’s insanely rare. Which is why the price is insanely high. Teams don’t just trade those guys away, everyone wants them, abs when they get them they keep them. If people are upset we haven’t made some big moves to bolster the pitching then I’m 100% on your side. I too, am dissatisfied. But the long term sustainable solution is to draft, trade for prospects, and develop these guys. We just plain and simply don’t do that. But what would it look like? It’s not just drafting guys, it’s having the ability to identify and develop talent. For example, Dick Fitts is a nice young pitching prospect, not elite, but could develop into a middle of the rotation starter. Probably won’t but could. Roger Clemens once was scouted and said to have the potential to be a mid rotation starter. It’s more probable that Fitts is not that good, but it’s having more moves like that (with using more draft capital) that ALLOWS for that to happen. Sox are essentially fishing in a pond with a dozen fish, where teams like LA stock their pond with fish. I really really hope that one day the ghost of baseball past/present/future visit John Henry and convince him to start acting like the Boston f***ing Red Sox again. But investments they’ve made in development and scouting are welcomed.

One reason the Yankees are good at spending smart is because the amount of scouting they do at the big league level. That’s an investment you don’t see show up in payroll. I’d also argue that recently the Dodgers are a better example. They spend, but they still manage to draft and develop their own guys. Red Sox have shown they can draft and develop position players. They just can’t do it on the other side of the ball. And have failed to not only address the issue, but fill in the blanks via other routes

If I could control the front office. I’d have both Montgomery and Yamamoto in here (maybe not Yama), but I’d certainly open the check book I’m not the front office, but if I was, on top of that I’d still be making the personnel and financial investments too to bottom to try and identify and develop more and better young pitching There’s nothing wrong with both. I think a wise man would agree it’s actually optimal. The reality is we can’t judge those things for years. We can definitely say for the past couple decades they’ve done a poor job. Have they improved in those areas? If recently only time will tell. Separate from that, there are other failures at the big league level. Failing to trade for those guys to fill in the hole, failing to sign big names to fill in those holes. They deserve all the strife in the world for not doing all of these above. Haven’t we been complaining for years that they don’t draft and develop pitching? Maybe that’s it. If they did, we couldn’t complain about it I suppose

I didn’t realize we were stock piling young pitching depth. I get you were probably talking about prospects in general. But I didn’t think this what we were talking about. I thought we were talking about getting young, talented, high upside pitching into the system. These guys don’t grow on trees. They can trade for pitching, or buy it now, which I’ve been a proponent of. But if you want young talented arms, you have to do a better job of developing them. That takes time. That’s a fact.

See my post above. Just because they could or should be trading for pitching, or signing quality free agents, doesn’t mean they shouldn’t try to start getting better at developing them too. This team is in a big hole. If we want long term success. It will take a multifaceted approach. I feel perfectly comfortable being happy that they’re investing in more scouts and development personnel and also being upset as a fan that they can’t trade and sign the guys they need now. To me it’s not a zero sum game.

Every good to great starting pitcher was developed somewhere. So if it never comes to fruition you’re doing something wrong. Hence, the concept of putting time, money, effort, and the RIGHT personnel into development. Whether we like it or not, it takes time. That’s not an argument it’s just reality. Which is why I was a big proponent of buying starting pitching this offseason. A big market team like Boston (who is currently acting like a mid market club) can afford to invest in pitching. If they wanted. I thinking taking the long road is more optimal for long term success, but I wanted to see now moves too in the interim. They have failed 100% to date, but I want bash them for doing something right.

It’s not excusing anything, it’s just logic. If they take a 16 year old in IFA, or draft an 18 year old. They’re not starting games in the majors for years to come. That’s just reality Could go college pitching, and reduce that lead time. But even then, you’re looking at a few years of building up innings and development. That’s. That’s exactly what developing pitching entails

In terms of fixing the pitching and development approach they have allegedly made many changes in just the last couple years. It’s worth noting, that it would take years to bear fruit. We will never know those changes are good until years down the road. I would also like to point out that they could have put all the right people there, up and down the system, but it’s going to be hard if you’re not drafting a lot of those guys. To some extent it’s a numbers game. I’m curious to see if the drafting strategy changes with Breslow. They did take a much larger amount of pitchers in IFA last year. But again, If those guys pan out it’s going to be 5+++ years or so until they start to contribute.

Just a reminder that pitchers and catchers report in 39 days. Soon the season will begin and there will be absolutely nothing to fight about.

Depends if he's more like the 1st half Yoshida, or the 2nd half. He's not as big of a butcher in LF as people say, but the bat was good before he really slowed down in the second half.

I was about to say yes, then I realized Darvish is 37.

I don't really want to touch the Bauer situation again, I think I already gave myself and everyone else PTSD. But taking all the drama out of the equation he's a guy who hasn't pitched in the majors in 2.5 years. He does offer upside, but carries risk, and he probably takes a 1-2 year pillow contract to help he rebuild value. We already have a guy like that with the signing of Giolito, at this point we need certainty in the rotation. Perferably with talent.

I've been saying this same mantra for years, but I'm starting to shift my opinion on it. Yes you can trade hitting for pitching, but you can't get away with that to build the majority of your pitching staff. Yes we've developed our own guys who are good E.G. Houck. But not enough high end talent. When is the last time we developed an ACE? Sure we can trade for one, and perhaps we should, but if you're trading 4 for 1, or 3 for 1 prospects for pitching, eventually you're going to have no team on the field behind them. Prospects bust, but some don't, and the more bullets you fire the more Bogaerts, Betts, Durans, Casas, Bello's, Houcks you're missing out on. I know the talent level varies on that list, but you need good to better talent all up/down your roster to compete for championships. At some point, the Boston Red Sox are going to have to do a much better job of bringing in elite pitching talent, Whether that's trading for younger pitching prospects who they can better evaluate and develop (a good example of this would be if Fitts develops into a #3) and/or drafting pitchers via Rule 4 and IFA.

Their* ughhh

If they make no other pitching additions, then maybe they’re blatantly punting on 2024. If that’s the case, there’s no way they are making a major addition to the pitching staff with or without Sales money. At least they got a young 23 year old with a lot of upside. Still, they need pitching. If they’re not buying pitching they better start drafting and developing it. If that’s there plan. Our only path to success is either waiting another 4 years, or having a season where everything breaks right. Don’t shoot the messenger.

If they just wanted to cut payroll, why get Grissom? Usually teams kick in money to get back a better return. If the motivation was to cut payroll, then why not take back a less valuable piece and have Atlanta or another team eat more of the money?

Ughhhh I’m mixing up my threads again. My bad

If we are arguing whether the Sox are going to go “full throttle” and sign a guy like Montgomery, I’m not disputing that we are all going to be very disappointed most likely. What I’m disputing is, getting a team like Atlanta to eat more salary on what is effectively a one year deal is not moving the needle. Whatever the Sox would offer Jordan Montgomery, If they are in fact going to make an offer is likely exactly the same amount whether Atlanta took on the full salary or not. One is not affecting the other.

Not really. Because I think it’s 100% false that trading Chris Sale prevents the Sox from going out and signing a pitcher better than Giolito. If anything it opens up a roster spot and makes it more likely.

If no additional moves come I’d be dissatisfied, and I’d surely grab my pitchforks and join the ranks. But to me in that scenario this deal doesn’t get better or worse, but I’d I had to chose I’d say it’s even better then. Think about it. If we make no other moves we probably won’t be very good this year. If we keep sale and suck again we just pay him the full salary and lose him for nothing. At least this way we have a young cost controlled talent with upside. Regardless of what happens in 2024, we have him thru the 2029 season. He could very well play a role in future winning teams. Sale never will no matter what

You seriously think they wouldn’t go over the cap for one year? Pay a few extra million for one year? To not sign Montgomery? What makes more sense. A.) Sox won’t sign Montgomery because they are unwilling to commit the contract he will command, and because they’re weary of long term contracts to aging pitchers? (Spoiler alert. Huge precedent here) Or B.) they have a set budget and will not go over it because the Red Sox do not go past the luxury tax limit. Sox have said they would go over. (Spoiler alert. Also precedent for this) Before you continue reading take note there’s zero precedent for B. Because they have a history of going over the luxury tax and setting themselves up to reset, which they’re in. They had a budget all those years too, every team has a budget, you think those budgets are 100% set in stone? That’s absurd. They’re in the same financial boat in 2025 even if the Braves took 100% of the contract. Also worth nothing, there’s IS clear precedent for A. In action and in statement. They haven’t signed big pitchers and still gone past the cap. The budget isn’t just about one year, it’s about year over year. That’s why they sign guys to short term contracts and shy away from long term. It’s why team look to reset, going over the cap is 100% inconsequential to a team like Boston when they have the ability to reset the next year. Even the freaking Dodgers are setting themselves up to get below thresholds. Yes, even they care about AAV. It’s not just total money, it’s the years. Sox literally blew past the cap just two years ago, and had the highest payroll in baseball a few before that. Of course they have a budget, but $17 million for one year isn’t stopping them from offering whatever they think is fair to Snell or Montgomery. That’s literally got to be one of the most irrational I’ve heard on here all year. I don’t believe the Sox will make those moves, because in a vacuum they don’t want to spend the money on those guys. If 200/8 gets you Snell, the Sox aren’t offering that WITH OR WITHOUT Sales $17 million. They’re cheap with long term deals, they don’t give a rats ass about going over the cap for one years. Why can’t you see that? I feel like this is obvious to 99.99% of the baseball world. If the Sox don’t sign another starting pitcher it’s 100% because they’re cheap *******s and 100% nothing to do with how much money they got Atlanta to eat. If you can’t understand that then just give up. Don’t pass go. Don’t collect $200 No team has a budget that is 100% set in stone. Some are more flexible than others, if according to you I’m the only one in here then I’ll be proud to have good financial prowess compared to others. Teams will go under/over their budgets for the right circumstances. If the Boston Red Sox for example COULD Snell for 200/8, they would do it. They wouldn’t walk away from that deal because they have to pay Chris Sale $17 for ONE YEAR. That’s just ridiculous

“Hey Jordan, we can’t offer you 160/8. Yeah I know, it’s unfortunate but we only got the Braves to eat $10 million so we just aren’t willing to go above 145” That’s stupid logic 2024: Sox probably have enough money to sign one of Snell/Montgomery (if they wanted to) and still stay under the cap. And even if they had to get under they could easily move Jensen/Martin/Pivetta one of those three to get under. Also, they’ve specifically stated in the past they would be willing to go over if the circumstances were right. In the end, the Sox will either be willing to spend the money on a Snell type or they will not. Not intelligent baseball fan actually thinks the Braves not eating his contract changes that. 2025. Sales Money is off the books does not have any bearing on a Snell/Montgomery AAV 2026. Sales Money is off the books does not have any bearing on a Snell/Montgomery AAV 2027. Sales Money is off the books does not have any bearing on a Snell/Montgomery AAV 2028. Sales Money is off the books does not have any bearing on a Snell/Montgomery AAV 2029 Sales Money is off the books does not have any bearing on a Snell/Montgomery AAV 2030 Sales Money is off the books does not have any bearing on a Snell/Montgomery AAV But don’t worry. I see you. If the Sox don’t make any other major starting pitching additions you will be the one screaming it was because they kicked in too much money for one year on the Chris Sale trade If you don’t like the trade that’s fine, if you don’t like Grissom that’s your opinion, I can respect that. But this trade doesn’t prevent them from signing a pitcher. Not even close.