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Sale was Atlanta’s reclamation project, just like Kluber was in Boston. They had no idea he was healthy, and in fact missed two months with a shoulder injury during those two attempts to acquire him. This shouldn’t be a surprise; lots of teams gamble on pitchers this way. They quite often don’t work out, and rarely do as well as Sale did. But they didn’t “know” he was healthy and very likely didn’t declare him so after 40 IP, especially if they tried to acquire him the year before.

It cost more to get rid of it. So why was that the plan? Its starting to look like Sox fans cannot handle when things don’t work out and every time a move fails, fingers must be pointed towards heads that need to roll…

A guy who deserves a chance?

It’s not my conspiracy theory; I’m not the one saying Atlanta “knew something.” And I have my doubts Atlanta or any MLB team pronounces a player healthy based on small samples, especially with millions of dollars at stake. At best, they saw enough to take a chance. That’s not “knowing something.” Why is it Sox fans refuse to believe other teams do reclaimation projects with pitchers? It’s a strategy that’s been around for so long, Lou Gorman was doing it. Yet for some reason, other teams don’t take these gambles apparently. Even in a deal where Atlanta does every obvious move to protect themselves, somehow they “knew something” Boston didn’t. And not that they were simply more willing to gamble on Sale..

So they were tampering? Atlanta should have had no access to Sale’s medicals, and judging from the extension they gave him, weren’t entirely confident. They gambled. They won. And it’s fine to admit that in hindsight. It didn’t work out. But to not understand why the Sox weren’t confident in Sale at bat point is another thing. And 40 IP stretch with a 3.92 FIP didn’t change their mind, possibly because the season before they signed another aging pitcher winding down a great career who gave his old team a 3.88 FIP over 60 IP and then completely washed out in Boston. I can’t blame the Sox for moving on, even if it didn’t work out…

We’ve both ancknowledged. the other’s points numerous times, or at least made the appearance of doing so. Like how your entire argument is repeating over and over that he appeared healthy at the end of 2023. As if that clinches everything and ignores 1. He still didn’t pitch injury-free in 2023 2. He hadn’t pitched a full season since 2019 3. He was not himself even in 2019 4. He was now 35 years old And something about 150 innings, blah blah. Ive acknowledged you thought he proved he was healthy. I didn’t think it was enough proof. And the notion that injury histories are meaningless I don’t agree with at all. And the only conclusion I’ve been trying to point out it is was UNDERSTANDABLE to trade him necessary. Yes, they needed pitching. Sale was a reason they needed it over a four year stretch, not the solution to count on again. I’m also not changing that part on hindsight. Hindsight does tell me it was a horrible trade, but at the time it was understandable…

Agreed. Either keep Yoshida or trade him for someone else’s unwanted contract. I still think Yoshida plus $13-14 mill for Garver is a realistic deal, although it’s probably only 75% likely to happen.* *Probability percentages are not binding or final.

Henry knows what spending can do. This WS isn’t the boon to promote spending you think it is. These two teams have one combined WS title in the past 14 years - and that one in a shortened season - all while spending what? Probably well over $3 billion combined in that timeframe. I don’t see Henry magically changing his mind that his path back to the WS is clear. Not from this series..

I’m never optimistic on spending. Probably why I generally focus on players who won’t require it…

I’ve explained in multiple times. Just because you refuse to believe it first makes sense. But what should I expect from someone who tells me the Sox spent $17mill to give Sale away plus $18mill to replace him, all so they could save $10mill? Why not pay less to unload Sale (that offer existed and was refused, so you have no counter for it) and NOT sign Giolito and just not replace Sale at all? They did have five starting pitchers lined up at the time. But I’ll try again. Sale had no durability and couldn’t be relied on to pitch. Even if he dazzled with his Steve Matz impression in 2023, HE WAS TURNING 35!! Not an age one expects a comeback. And he looked good at the end of 2021 as well; how’d that pan out in 2022? Normally, Giolito is of varying degrees of effective but he’s always had one skill prior to 2024 - he eats innings. With an inexperienced staff including Bello, Whitlock and either Crawford or Houck, this was an invaluable skill. You keep repeating the Sox needed pitching; have you ever considered maybe they didn’t agree with you? At least on what types of pitchers and how many? Replacing Sale makes no sense if you expect him to pitch. But he hadn’t pitched in a while, despite your pretense that 40 consecutive injury-free innings meant he was cured. Sale had become a reason for depth and a hindrance in acquiring it. He was 35 and had pitched 150 innings in 4 years.

And Nick Martinez…

Cole would have to opt out of 4 years $144 mill. But even if he does, the Yankees still have the option of keeping him for one more year at $36mill…

Those same doctors passed Giolito. And not because they’re incompetent. It turns out medical science is actual very tricky sometimes…

The budget makes ZERO sense. The actual most likely scenario is they wanted to replace Sale and his horrible attendance record with a pitcher who shows up for work more often. If you think the budget was the primary factor, why spend more money on Giolito than you paid for Sale?? And why ask for MLB-ready Grissom in return when taking a lesser minor leaguer would have reduced the $17mill payment to Atlanta?

I read. I just presented in a phrasing to emphasize that you were ignoring extremely recent injuries in favor of a small sample size. I also contemplated saying “he looked healthy in between injuries” to make the same point. Also “he went 40 innings without injuring himself.”

I’m not quite up to “smart” for a team that gave up on Sale but planned to rely on Whitlock. I go with “understandable until they quit.” I really don’t get why nothing was done after Giolito went down…

He looked fine in 2023? The year he missed two months for a bad shoulder?!? Your medical diagnosis boils down to “if you ignore the injuries, he’s pretty healthy.” SOME of his injuries were strange. Bike accident. Yes. Comebacker? Unlucky? Breaking a rib while pitching? Strange, and absolutely worrisome. Elbow surgery and shoulder injury for a pitcher? These are not strange for a pitcher. And they can both be legitimate concerns…

What looks bizarre to me wasn’t teasing Sale; he’d been a source of frustration for far too long. And not replacing him with Giolito, unless weird interpretations of his medicals are in play. Like they noticed issues with his elbow, figured it explained his struggles at the end of 20/3, but then ignored that it could take him out for 2024. That’s weird IF that happened. But I don’t get not replacing Giolito. Even if his injury put Crawford into the rotation, it still left you 1) dangerously thin while 2) relying on Whitlock…

My other option is to join those who rewrite medical science and diagnose pitchers they’ve never even met for conditions they don’t understand. But I’m the one with consulted hindsight hypotheticals…

I do better with people who acknowledge history :)

That’s why Atlanta made a logical team to acquire him. The reason the Sox traded Sale has been explained to you so many times, you’ve started facetiously complaining about it. But I can do it again if you like..

Yeah I’m not sure how that got added. Do people think Breslow intends to make bad trades? And announce it beforehand? No idea why anyone thinks the Sox want peanuts in their deals. Chocolate covered pretzels? I get that. Heck I’d deal Mayer for that. But peanuts?

The article states Tomase floated the idea of using Mayer as the centerpiece. That’s no different than me floating the idea. Not news…

I wonder if the uproar would have been the same had Sale been dealt to Texas (for nothing) and proceeded to sit out most of 2022 and 2023 first…

It’s not hard to communicate secretly. One method that used to be widely used was to leave emails in draft form. The “recipient” logs in to the same account, reads and erases/deletes the drafts, and maybe drafts a reply. Not something easy to find. It was how the 9-11 terrorists reportedly communicated…