moonslav59

What makes you think the GG voters are experts? IMO, he's the worst. I'd agree on 3 to 5th worst for those 11 years. If you want to claim I'm moving the goalposts, fine. I still think he was the worst, and I have evidence to prove it, and not just sabermetrics. The Fielding Bible is stacked with experts and they never placed him in the top 13, so that right there throws out the 55 GGs, which is all you got. Give it up. He sucked- royally.

Exactly.It's certainly a bigger scam than UZR/150+ DRS+ Fielding Bible + dWAR.

The worst part about the Jeter Gold Glove Awards is that all were after he had declined! Take his 2009 award,perhaps the biggest scam of all, he couldn't even finish in the top 17 on The Fielding Bible. (Same with 2006- 18th place .) He must have fooled one or two voters on that committee, so I guess some Sox fans are not alone, but since he never got more than 1-3 points, none of the members could ever have ranked him higher than #7. (He got one vote as the 10th best in 2008, and he got no votes in 2010- yet we're supposed to believe he was the best in 2009.) He got one point in 2008 (22nd out of 22 who got votes.) He got no votes for top 10 in 2010 (22 others did.) No votes in 2011 (16 got 1+ votes) None in 2012 (16 did.) None in 2013 (19 did.) None in 2014 (24 did.)

I know plenty of Yankee fans and all admit Jeter was at best below average his last 10-11 years of his career. I find it fascinating that we have Sox fans defending his horrendous defense. They watched the same games I did, and whoop-dee-freakin-doo, he hardly made any errors. This whole "few errors" argument is so old and tired and short-sighted I'm tired of even debating the issue anymore.

Crickets is the reply, because there is no valid response. The example of them choosing a DH as their GG 1Bman is but one of the many jokes they've chosen- Jeter being a fine example. One can argue he was not the worst. One can even argue he was not the worst 3 or 5, but to argue he was even a plus defender after year 3-4 is a total clown joke. Winning multiple GGs isone of the biggest scams of all time, in terms of awards. The guy was never top 15, let alone #1.

I've read all this and more. Jeter sucked on D, and not just because the stats backed up by observations.

Exactly. My point was about being in the field so much his defense made him the worst. Longevity counts when it's a plus (like with Porcello), but it shouldn't when it's a minus? Look, I'm fine with blaming the manager for not moving him to 3B, but the fact is, he played SS, when maybe he shouldn't have been playing that position. Pride, glory, reputation, whatever the reason, when he played, and he played often, he sucked on D the last 10-11 years of his career. It reminds me of Cal Ripken being played too much just to get the record- damn what's best for the team. Ripken was a beast and a big plus to his team, but playing everyday hurt the team. Jeter's D hurt the team, but his offense and leadership more than made up for it. He belongs in the HOF- no doubt, but not for his defense.

You are clueless on how UZR/150 works, so no wonder you don't respect it.

No. He was the worst or maybe 3rd worst for a decade. He was not the worst in his first 2-3 years. It's not just about UZR/150. DRS has him even worse. MY observations of the 17-18 games we played them every year backed up the data. The guy was a statue. He sucked. Plenty of baseball people regard UZR/150 and DRS with respect- flawed or not. You are basing your opinion on what Flg%? LMAO! On GG votes? OMG! Yes, the final straw for me was that because he played so much his poor defense made his total defensive output dead worst in MLB for that decade (his last 10 years in MLB). You can laugh all you want about my position, but I've seen nothing to support your point, except GG votes- the same voters who voted a DH the GG at 1B one year. Let's go by dWAR (fangraphs) from 2004-2014 (30 SSs with 3500+ PAs in that period): 25. Jeter 26. HRam 27. A Cabrera 28. F Lopez 29. Y Betancourt 30. M Young You probably don't respect WAR either, so what's the use? dWAR: 5th worst UZR/150: 3rd worst UZR: worst by far DRS: worst (the same as the next two worst combined!!!!) No evidence? Sketchy evidence? PLEASE! They guy sucked on D. It's possible to be great on O, great in the clubhouse, suck on D and be a legitimate HOF'er. Jeter is that guy. Period. His range was one to two step to both sides- maybe three to four on a slow grounder. Whoop-dee-freakin-doo! He made all those plays hit right to him. I saved my best argument for last. jacko has never said a bad word about any Yankee star, so when he says this- read between the lines- even he knows he sucked on D: All in all, he probably should have been the 3b when we got Arod, but he was too proud for that. I watched at least 70% of the games he played in his career, and I am aware of the DRS and UZR deficiencies. He wasn't a good defender, but he wasn't the butcher early on that he became later, especially after the ankle injury... (And, I agreed, he wasn't "the butcher" early in his career.)

Replacing the work horse Porcello with an injury-prone SP'er is not my idea of a smart move. If we do look to sign a 5th starter (which goes totally against my philosophy, but this could be a rebuild year), I'd go for a low risk-high reward pitcher like If we can afford... Julio Teheran (222 GS'd since 2013- 4th in MLB) Tanner Roark (30 GS'd in 5 of last 6 seasons) (Both are projected to make $18M/2 by MLBTR.) Wade Miley ($16M/2 by MLBTR) My pick as an affordable choice? Josh Lindblom (MLBTR writes: $8M/2 Lindblom has a 2.68 ERA and a 346-to-67 K/BB ratio in 363 1/3 innings. The righty was carrying a sub-2.00 ERA for much of the 2019 season in the hitter-friendly KBO, and while win-loss record doesn’t mean much in 2019, his 35-7 mark over the past two seasons speaks to the success he’s found. Were Lindblom younger, he may well be ranked higher on the list. He’ll turn 33 next June... His fastball stands out in terms of spin rate, but its velocity isn’t particularly eye-catching (90-92 mph). Maybe... Ivan Nova ($6M/1) 120 starts in the last 4 years. 5% BB rate is third best in MLB, although his K rate is 3rd worst. Probably not worth the risk: Gio Gonzalez

My position on the reasoning goes like this: the year we signed HRam & Pablo, we needed offense and pitching. Scherzer was the only clear ace available that year, so they decided to wait on pitching until the next season, when 3-4 aces were going to be on the open market. I disagreed with signing Pablo. I thought signing HRam to play 3B would have been good. We ended up getting Price, who maybe had better numbers than Scherzer had at the time of their signings. I try to avoid the whole arguments about who in management pulled the strings.

Would you agree to him being one of the worst 3 out of all the full time short stops of that decade? That is clearly defensible. I called him the worst, because not only was he horrible, he played 2-3,000 more innings that the other bad ones of that decade, so his weak D was magnified to the point of making him the worst. BTW, his UZR was as bad as the next two worst ones combined. How is that not a "defense" or a position?

So, no HOF'er can ever be a bad fielder. Great logic. Jeter sucked on D for over a decade.

Many do both. Those are the ones I like. If it comes down to a guy who makes 100 more plays than the other (on exactly the same amount and difficulty plays) but makes 20 more errors, I'll take the guy with 20 more errors.

Jeter was certainly a big plus player overall. His offense outweighed his defense and then some. He was a big plus in the clubhouse as well. My diss on his D was in no way meant to imply he was an overall bad player. (I do think he should have moved to 3B for ARod- like Nomar was going to do- not that ARod was a great defensive SS.)

The guy made one good play his whole life, and we had to watch it replayed 17 million times. I guess some people think he made that play more than once.

They once gave the GG to a guy who DH'd the whole year. Tell me the award means anything, except that it is a popularity contest.

I've had plenty of people, including on this site and the old one who agree with me, or agree he was bad but maybe not "the worst."

2004-2014 MLB SS Defense Top 29 Qualified UZR 27. Y Betancourt -20.7 28. H Ramirez -53.6 29. Derek Jeter -62.4 Worst 3 by UZR/150 -8.4 Betancourt -8.3 HRam -6.9 Jeter Now look at DRS, and nobody is even close. He nearlt doubled the next worst guy, HRam): -139 Jeter -73 HRam -66 Betancourt (HRam + Betancourt= -139!) Yup--worst in my lifetime! Not even close. Not even open for discussion, unless you want to count guys that didn't play much. https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2019/11/offseason-outlook-boston-red-sox-10.html

Like GG awards mean anything. Jeter was the worst full time defensive SS I have ever seen. No doubt. Period. Exclamation point! (Note: He was juts plain bad early in his career. He was horrible the rest.)

Had he just signed Scherzer instead of HRam & Pablo.... (We wouldn't have Price, too.)

The funnies move ever made was to move ARod to 3B so the worst defensive SS in my lifetime could stay at SS.

Right. LOL

Minnesota!!!!!!!!

I took your post to mean this year, but still, I'd take your bet. There are some great defensive 3Bmen all around the league. If Devers can ever get to a +5 UZR/150, I'd be pleased and surprised. (I still think Dalbec will end up with a better career UZR/150 than Devers at 3B.)